The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

This is way off.
The 1st horse rider is not Jesus.
It is the false christ, the antichrist.
When Jesus comes on a white horse He is accompanied by millions of saints blackening the sky.
He comes on horses AFTER the 7 yr gt.
What you are supposing is impossible.
That false Jesus is at tge door , ready to appear.
You better research and get it straight.
You will be following the devil If you fall for the deception.
Millions of believers took the death jab, listening to the government "Wisdom" on covid.
Millions still think ivermecton and quinine are bogus drugs with no effect on covid.
Millions of believers fell for Obama, a wicked Muslim.
Millions will be deceived at the start of the gt., as declared in the bible.

Maybe you could show us all where the seven year tribulation is in the Word of God!

 

[WPM]

Is Jesus ruling the kings of the earth at the present time?

Yes! Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?

There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.

Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, “These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus” (Acts 17:6-7).

Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”

The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The rider of the white horse is clearly Jesus. The bow represents Gods covenant. Jacob a type of Christ wore a coat of many colors.

Jesus rose into Jerusalem on an ass which is in the horse family.

Jesus wore a crown of thorns. The crown in Revelation is a stephanous crown which is a woven wreath.

Jesus came to conquer sin and death.

The stephanous crown is similar to a crown at some sports event winner.
Jesus wears diadems at his white horse appearing. Kingly crowns
Yet another thing pointing to a bogus fake Jesus on a horse at the start of the gt

 

[rebuilder 454]

Maybe you could show us all were the seven year tribulation is in the Word of God!

This is the kind of stuff you center on.

desperately diverting away from the basis of the trib.
It is like arguing over the length of time it took the WTC to fall and using it to prove an earthquake actually knocked the towers down

Do you like 3 years?
4 years ?
8 years?
2 years?
1 month?
It makes your doctrine just as wrong.
It changes zero.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are 2 Mt Zions.
One in heaven
One on earth.

" There are two – one on earth and one in heaven. On earthly Mount Zion refers to Jerusalem. But there is a corresponding Mount Zion in heaven. Hebrews 12:22 refers to it: “But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

( Google search)


( authenticating the 144k of rev 14:1 are indeed in heaven)

 

[WPM]

This is the kind of stuff you center on.

desperately diverting away from the basis of the trib.
It is like arguing over the length of time it took the WTC to fall and using it to prove an earthquake actually knocked the towers down

Do you like 3 years?
4 years ?
8 years?
2 years?
1 month?
It makes your doctrine just as wrong.
It changes zero.

Like i thought: extra-biblical invented error.

 

[IndianaRob]

The stephanous crown is similar to a crown at some sports event winner.
Jesus wears diadems at his white horse appearing. Kingly crowns
Yet another thing pointing to a bogus fake Jesus on a horse at the start of the gt

My point was that Jesus wore a wreath of thorns on his head.

stephanos

From an apparently primary “stepho” (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, a prize in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, G1238), literally or figuratively: - crown.

 

[The Light]

Where? That is because you have not addressed this. You avoided then and you avoided here.

Always the same. Deny that you have been addressed. Claim avoidance. It's always about the protecting the false doctrine and never about the truth.

Here are my answers when you asked this before. And yet you claimed I did not answer.

Did you avoid responding to my answers?

Always deny, deny, deny. Never about the truth.

The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.
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Ok

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

The world is not destroyed at the 6th seal. The sixth seal is the second coming. This coming does not occur at the 7th trumpet.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God is getting to happen when the 7th seal is opened. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There is a harvest, and the world is cast into the 1 year, Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which we also see in Rev 14
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Summary.............Jesus comes at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. THEN the 7th seal is opened and the trumpet of wrath begin. The 7th seal is the one year Day of the Lord.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

There is no second part of the 6th seal. Jesus comes. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. They try to hide in caves etc because they know that the 1 year Day of the Lord is about to begin.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
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You need to understand that Revelation 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seals as does Rev 13. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal as they are raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. Here is the great tribulation in Revelation 14. And we know that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation and is OVER at the 6th seal as Christ has returned for a harvest.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

Those 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest. They do not go through 7th seal wrath of God. They have to be in heaven before the 5th seal which is the great tribulation.

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it.
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There are other trumpets. The last trump is the last of a series of 100 trumpet blasts. The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, the day of the fall fruit harvest. These feasts of God tell us exactly what is going to occur in the last days.

 

[The Light]

Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
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When the trumpet of the 7th angel sounds Christ has returned to earth to set up His kingdom. Armageddon has already happened.

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!
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The last trump is for a harvest at the 6th seal. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Those seven trumpets blown by angels are the wrath of God .............The day of the Lord.

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

The scripture says He will reign 1000 years and then Satan is let loose.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[The Light]

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12)

That is not the Church in Rev 12. Those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman which is the twelve tribes across the earth.

including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Those are 144,000 from the 12 tribes in heaven. These events in Rev 13 and 14 take place in the 1st 6 seals.

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”
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This is the gathering from heaven and earth which is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the 1-year Day of the Lord, wrath of God

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!
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The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe. They are different views with different info of the same timeframe..............The Day of the Lord.

 

[The Light]

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Here is the great meeting in the air when Jesus comes. This is when the Church throughout time meets Christ in the air. This is the same scene portrayed in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready for what?

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the Bridegroom comes.

Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the whore in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The bride is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.
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The marriage does not occur in the air. It occurs in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

After “the marriage of the Lamb,” which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John continues, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
The End!!!
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The armies leave heaven..........where the throne is.

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

He is coming with wrath. He will then set up His kingdom on earth as His feet will touch the mount of Olives.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.
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Here are the parallels short and simple.

Revelation 4 and 5 shows the Lord has come for His bride.
Revelation 6, the 1st 6 seal is what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal it is a harvest seen in Rev 14.
The 7th seal is the 1-year day of the Lord, wrath of God.
Wrath is over and the 7th trumpet.

Want another view?
Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals
Revelation 16 and 16 occur in the 7th seal

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. We get 3 views of Noah loading the animals, but He only loads them once. We get three views of the flood but there is one flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st 6 seals.................Revelation 6 and Revelation 13-14.
We get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.......................Revelation 8-11 and Revelation 12-16


So you have been answered again. Where is your detailed point by point response?

 

[WPM]

Always the same. Deny that you have been addressed. Claim avoidance. It's always about the protecting the false doctrine and never about the truth.

Here are my answers when you asked this before. And yet you claimed I did not answer.

Did you avoid responding to my answers?

Always deny, deny, deny. Never about the truth.

Ok


The world is not destroyed at the 6th seal. The sixth seal is the second coming. This coming does not occur at the 7th trumpet.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The wrath of God is getting to happen when the 7th seal is opened. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There is a harvest, and the world is cast into the 1 year, Day of the Lord, wrath of God.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which we also see in Rev 14
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Summary.............Jesus comes at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. THEN the 7th seal is opened and the trumpet of wrath begin. The 7th seal is the one year Day of the Lord.


There is no second part of the 6th seal. Jesus comes. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. They try to hide in caves etc because they know that the 1 year Day of the Lord is about to begin.


You need to understand that Revelation 14 occurs in the 1st 6 seals as does Rev 13. Those 144,000 have to be sealed before the 5th seal as they are raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. Here is the great tribulation in Revelation 14. And we know that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation and is OVER at the 6th seal as Christ has returned for a harvest.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Those 144,000 are the first fruits of the second harvest. They do not go through 7th seal wrath of God. They have to be in heaven before the 5th seal which is the great tribulation.


There are other trumpets. The last trump is the last of a series of 100 trumpet blasts. The last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets, the day of the fall fruit harvest. These feasts of God tell us exactly what is going to occur in the last days.

There is a pattern in engaging with Pretribs and Premils: they avoid the scriptural detail, avoid the attached arguments and just voice their opinion. That is all we have here. I refer you back to the avoided detail that forbids your doctrine.

This is why posts have to be re-presented numerous times.

 

[WPM]

The marriage does not occur in the air. It occurs in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.




The armies leave heaven..........where the throne is.



He is coming with wrath. He will then set up His kingdom on earth as His feet will touch the mount of Olives.


Here are the parallels short and simple.

Revelation 4 and 5 shows the Lord has come for His bride.
Revelation 6, the 1st 6 seal is what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal it is a harvest seen in Rev 14.
The 7th seal is the 1-year day of the Lord, wrath of God.
Wrath is over and the 7th trumpet.

Want another view?
Revelation 13 and 14 occur in the 1st 6 seals
Revelation 16 and 16 occur in the 7th seal

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. We get 3 views of Noah loading the animals, but He only loads them once. We get three views of the flood but there is one flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st 6 seals.................Revelation 6 and Revelation 13-14.
We get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.......................Revelation 8-11 and Revelation 12-16


So you have been answered again. Where is your detailed point by point response?

Talk about twisting Scripture to fit your error. This is what the cults do.

You have avoided all my arguments (once again) and just repeated the party line what you have been taught.

 

[WPM]

When the trumpet of the 7th angel sounds Christ has returned to earth to set up His kingdom. Armageddon has already happened.


The last trump is for a harvest at the 6th seal. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Those seven trumpets blown by angels are the wrath of God .............The day of the Lord.



The scripture says He will reign 1000 years and then Satan is let loose.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Again, you fail to address argument after argument. You duck around each. That is a testimony of the veracity of Amillennialism.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I’d still like for someone to show me what verse says there’s a 7 year tribulation/persecution.

 

[The Light]

Talk about twisting Scripture to fit your error. This is what the cults do.

You have avoided all my arguments (once again) and just repeated the party line what you have been taught.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Always the same.

You got nothing. You can't even find your rapture in the book of Revelation. It's there somewhere.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

You can't support anything you say regarding end times with scripture................................

 

[The Light]

Again, you fail to address argument after argument. You duck around each. That is a testimony of the veracity of Amillennialism.

LOL. Still waiting for you to address point by point my response to your CYCLE nonsense that you claimed that I did not respond to.

You shall know them by their fruits.

 

[The Light]

There is a pattern in engaging with Pretribs and Premils: they avoid the scriptural detail, avoid the attached arguments and just voice their opinion. That is all we have here. I refer you back to the avoided detail that forbids your doctrine.

This is why posts have to be re-presented numerous times.

Deny, deny, deny. You got nothing that scripture doesn't disprove.

 

[WPM]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Always the same.

You got nothing. You can't even find your rapture in the book of Revelation. It's there somewhere.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

You can't support anything you say regarding end times with scripture................................

Lol. I highlighted the one and only return of Christ, the rescue of God's people, and the destruction of the wicked and fallen creation in great detail in the various recapitulations in Revelation above but you sidestepped them (once again). You do not want to see.

Revelation describes this great climatic event from different angles focusing on different actors in the whole arrangement.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you only can find one coming of the Lord............which, of course, you can't somehow find in the book of revelation, your confusion is understandable. Here maybe this will help.

Acts 1:11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This passage supports my view, not yours. How do you think it supports yours? Are you thinking this says He is coming back to the earth? It absolutely does NOT say that. Only your doctrinal bias leads you to think that. It only says that He will descend from heaven IN LIKE MANNER that He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily. It does NOT say He will come back to the place from where He left, as you imagine. Stop trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

Since all eyes see the coming of the Lord at the 6th seal when He remains in the clouds............according to scripture, it would seem His actual arrival to the earth would be the second advent happening at the end of wrath.

He is not coming to the earth as know it. He will reign forever on the renewed (new) earth with the Father.

Of course you have the problem of the second coming occurring at the 6th seal when He remains in the clouds.

That is not a problem for me at all. Please stop making claims that you can't support.

Additionally, you have the problem of Jesus setting His feet on the mount of Olives at the end of wrath when.........This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This has already been addressed. I don't recall a response to my prior posts. I could be wrong as I miss responses.

He already set His feet on the mount of Olives long ago. I have talked about the problems with interpreting Zechariah 14 in a literal, futurist way plenty of times already. If you want to believe in the reinstatement of animal sacrifices despite the fact that Jesus made His once for all sacrifice that put an end to the old covenant and its animal sacrifices, then that's your choice, but it's an insult to what Christ accomplished on the cross and completely contradicts what is written in Hebrews 8-10.