The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Address the biblical reality I presented.

While we disagree on endtimes, I know you are not stupid. My argument is pretty simple.

Maybe you could ask a question that I can answer.

I have a question for you. As a former profiler, I would like to know what union your dad was in.

 

[The Light]

I think what you meant to say is that none of the events of the 7 seals have begun yet.

All of the 7 seals were opened by Jesus as John and them in heaven watched , so that everyone would know what is in the book.

No Douggg. I meant none of the seals have been opened yet. John had visions. In these visions he saw the seals being opened and the event that would occur when each seal was opened.

But none of it has happened yet.

 

[Douggg]

No Douggg. I meant none of the seals have been opened yet. John had visions. In these visions he saw the seals being opened and the event that would occur when each seal was opened.

But none of it has happened yet.

The start of Revelation 5 and Revelation 6 does not indicate any sort of vision of Jesus opening the seals sometime in the future, but live action taking place. Jesus taking the book and opening the seals as everyone present there in heaven watched.

 

[WPM]

Maybe you could ask a question that I can answer.

I have a question for you. As a former profiler, I would like to know what union your dad was in.

Avoidance is all you have. If you were to actually address the scriptural text you would have to admit that you have been deceived by your teachers. Avoidance simply points people to Amil truth. Your doctrine is in pieces on this thread.

 

[WPM]

This is typical of all of your responses. You make claims without any actual exegesis of the text.

They do not know what that is or how to do that. To do so would force them to renounce their beliefs, which they do not want to do.

 

[WPM]

And what are you wanting me to do with all these statements?

Learn to let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe you could ask a question that I can answer.

How about you address what he said in post #2447? You don't have to address all of it, but maybe 2 or 3 of his points, at least.

 

[The Light]

This is typical of all of your responses. You make claims without any actual exegesis of the text. All you did here is refer to "much people in heaven". How does that say anything about a marriage taking place in heaven? All of your beliefs are based on speculation and assumptions. It does not say anything there about a marriage having taken place. Keep reading further from there...

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This indicates that the marriage has NOT taken place yet at that point, but the time for it to take place has come because "his wife hath made herself ready" for it. So, you took Revelation 19:1 completely out of context. And this is typical of how you interpret scripture.

When you talk about exegesis, to me that's nothing more than a license to make scripture say what you want it to say. That's like scripture telling us that the 144,000 first fruits are for the 12 tribes of Israel. Next thing you know the crutch exegesis steps in and people want to say that the 144,000 is the church. That's just nonsense. I like to let scripture just speak for itself.

But your point is well taken. You are correct that the marriage has not taken place.

What happens next? The armies of heaven are going to the valley of Megiddo.

Revelation 19
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

When does this happen? At the 6th vial. And you know that the 6th vial is parallel to the trumpets and happens in the same timeframe.

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Armageddon happens toward the end of wrath. The day of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The great multitude is in heaven during the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath. That is why we see the great multitude after Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

So by looking at scripture we can tell that the great multitude will be in heaven for the marriage for one year before the armies of heaven return to earth for Armageddon.

 

[The Light]

How about you address what he said in post #2447? You don't have to address all of it, but maybe 2 or 3 of his points, at least.

He needs to narrow down what point he is trying to make. The confusion lies in the fact that he and you do not understand that the Lord comes more than once.

 

[The Light]

Avoidance is all you have.

Just stop your ignorance, dude. There is nothing I have avoided. You just have listed a bunch of scriptures without understanding that Jesus comes more than once. Get direct. What question do you have?

If you were to actually address the scriptural text you would have to admit that you have been deceived by your teachers.

Who are my teachers.?

Avoidance simply points people to Amil truth.

You have done nothing more than list a bunch of scriptures. What question do you have. Stop avoiding.

Your doctrine is in pieces on this thread.

Right.

So what union was your dad a member of? The old training just kicks in.

 

[WPM]

Just stop your ignorance, dude. There is nothing I have avoided. You just have listed a bunch of scriptures without understanding that Jesus comes more than once. Get direct. What question do you have?




Who are my teachers.?


You have done nothing more than list a bunch of scriptures. What question do you have. Stop avoiding.


Right.

So what union was your dad a member of? The old training just kicks in.

Premils go here because they have nothing to corroborate their views. Frustration leads to their ad hominem.

 

[WPM]

Just stop your ignorance, dude. There is nothing I have avoided. You just have listed a bunch of scriptures without understanding that Jesus comes more than once. Get direct. What question do you have?




Who are my teachers.?


You have done nothing more than list a bunch of scriptures. What question do you have. Stop avoiding.


Right.

So what union was your dad a member of? The old training just kicks in.

We will see who has the truth and who his butchering it. We will see who the real literalists are and those who must spiritualize Scripture, twist it and explain it away, in order two letter doctrine fit.

My thesis: when Jesus comes He regenerates this earth, removes all corruption from creation, and banishes all sin, death, decay, rebellion and therefore the wicked. I am going to supply support from clear scriptural texts: please address them and stay away from the usual Pretrib avoidance and rabbit trails. I'm going to start with the removal of corruption from the earth.

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Romans 8:19-23 says (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of God elect). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.
Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. It will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premillennialists argue.

Acts 3:19-21: “the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). What God created, and man corrupted, will be restored, renewed and revealed. That is what God does!

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored [Gr. apokathistemi] whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored [Gr. apokathistemi], and saw every man clearly.”

Acts 3:19-21 is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.” Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

We are clearly looking at a renovation, reconstitution and restoration of creation when Jesus comes, not a complete recreation.

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish [Gr. apollumi]; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

To “perish” here equates to ‘waxing old’ and necessitates them to “be changed.”

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth and an eternally righteous state.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He needs to narrow down what point he is trying to make.

He's making multiple points. Just address one at a time if you want.

The confusion lies in the fact that he and you do not understand that the Lord comes more than once.

He doesn't come more than once. That is simply not taught in scripture anywhere and you certainly haven't come anywhere near proving such a thing. Scripture says He will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation" without ever teaching that He will also come a third time and when He comes He will descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). He will gather His own to Himself in the air at that time AFTER the tribulation of those days at which point He will destroy all of His enemies (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, Matthew 24:29-39).

 

[WPM]

He's making multiple points. Just address one at a time if you want.


He doesn't come more than once. That is simply not taught in scripture anywhere and you certainly haven't come anywhere near proving such a thing. Scripture says He will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation" without ever teaching that He will also come a third time and when He comes He will descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). He will gather His own to Himself in the air at that time AFTER the tribulation of those days at which point He will destroy all of His enemies (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, Matthew 24:29-39).

Take them away from what they have been taught and they get lost. That is why they cannot address any other arguments.

 

[The Light]

He's making multiple points. Just address one at a time if you want.


He doesn't come more than once. That is simply not taught in scripture anywhere and you certainly haven't come anywhere near proving such a thing. Scripture says He will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation" without ever teaching that He will also come a third time and when He comes He will descend from heaven in like manner that He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). He will gather His own to Himself in the air at that time AFTER the tribulation of those days at which point He will destroy all of His enemies (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, Matthew 24:29-39).

The tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal. And then the day of the Lord begins. Those 1st six seals are NOT the Day of the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When you talk about exegesis, to me that's nothing more than a license to make scripture say what you want it to say.

LOL. Stop being ignorant. It's exactly the opposite of that. To exegete scripture is to take the time to actually show exactly how you are interpreting the text without just quoting some scripture and saying what you think it means, like you do, while doing nothing to explain how you are interpreting it and why it means what you think it means.

That's like scripture telling us that the 144,000 first fruits are for the 12 tribes of Israel. Next thing you know the crutch exegesis steps in and people want to say that the 144,000 is the church. That's just nonsense. I like to let scripture just speak for itself.

Letting scripture just speak for itself within a book that was purposely "signified"/symbolized? That makes no sense. Your approach to interpreting scripture is one that any random unbelievers could use and come to similar conclusions as you do. But, Paul taught that scripture must be spiritually discerned through the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). In your approach, no spiritual discernment is required, even for interpreting a highly symbolic and Apocalyptic book like Revelation. I don't understand that kind of approach at all.

But your point is well taken. You are correct that the marriage has not taken place.

I appreciate your honesty here. But, I have to say again that this is how you typically interpret scripture. You drew a conclusion from Revelation 19:1-3 based only on your assumptions without looking carefully at the context. I beleve you do that often and this is not an isolated case.

What happens next? The armies of heaven are going to the valley of Megiddo.

Revelation 19
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

When does this happen? At the 6th vial. And you know that the 6th vial is parallel to the trumpets and happens in the same timeframe.

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Armageddon happens toward the end of wrath. The day of the Lord is one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The great multitude is in heaven during the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath. That is why we see the great multitude after Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

So by looking at scripture we can tell that the great multitude will be in heaven for the marriage for one year before the armies of heaven return to earth for Armageddon.

You expect me to trust your interpretation of the rest of Revelation 19 after how you interpreted Revelation 19:1-3? Sorry. I don't think so. You're missing the symbolism there, also. The book of Revelation gives names to spiritual entities based on ancient earthly entities. Such as Babylon. You know that's not referring to earthly Babylon, right? And the reference to Gog, and Magog. That reference symbolically refers to the heathen throughout the earth who number "as the sand of the sea" in Revelation 20:7-9. I believe Armageddon should be understood similarly. Not as a reference to a literal earthly place, but rather as a symbolic reference.

That's why in Revelation 19:17-18 John expands the scope of the ones who Jesus will destroy at His second coming to not only the kings of the earth and such that are said to go to Armageddon for battle, but to "all people, free and slave, great and small.”" which lines up with other scripture which says that He will destroy all of His enemies when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, Luke 21:33-36, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[The Light]

Take them away from what they have been taught and they get lost. That is why they cannot address any other arguments.

LOL. So what labor union?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal. And then the day of the Lord begins. Those 1st six seals are NOT the Day of the Lord.

I agree! As I have told you several times before already. But, where we differ, if you recall (do you ever remember anything we talk about?), is in our understanding of the length of the day of the Lord. We agree that it arrives after the sixth seal is opened, so we don't have to waste time arguing about that and can just focus on how long is the duration of the day of the Lord.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3 I see a reference to SUDDEN destruction occurring when the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly as a thief in the night and Paul said "they shall not escape" that destruction. And you can see why when you read 2 Peter 3:10-12. So, please explain to me, how SUDDEN detsruction by fire from which no unbelievers will escape will take a whole year to occur? That makes no sense and it certainly not the impression given in passages like Luke 21:33-36, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[jeffweeder]

Good morning , @jeffweeder

Who are the dead who will not live again until after the Millennium?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Good morning PEt-honeycomb.

Hmm, my thinking is the first resurrection from death to life comes through believing in Jesus...,

Jn 5:24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.


Thats the judgment for all believers in this current Gospel age before his coming and the door is shut.
Those who have rejected the Gospel in this Gospel age will rise for their judgment at his coming. These of course will be hurt by the second death unlike us who are born again. They apparently weep and gnash their teeth as they witness our glorification.


2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Douggg]

We will see who has the truth and who his butchering it. We will see who the real literalists are and those who must spiritualize Scripture, twist it and explain it away, in order two letter doctrine fit.

My thesis: when Jesus comes He regenerates this earth, removes all corruption from creation, and banishes all sin, death, decay, rebellion and therefore the wicked.

okay, you are amil. That's another topic.

Back to this thread's topic....

What is your rationale that the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 cannot happen pre-70th week (what pre-tribbers call pre-trib) ?

I am not asking that the rapture/resurrection must happen pre-70th week, but that it could happen pre-70th week.