The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol. I highlighted the one and only return of Christ, the rescue of God's people, and the destruction of the wicked and fallen creation in great detail in the various recapitulations in Revelation above but you sidestepped them (once again). You do not want to see.

Revelation describes this great climatic event from different angles focusing on different actors in the whole arrangement.

His lack of willingness to address your points says it all. He is going to just believe what he wants to believe no matter what.

 

[WPM]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Deny, Deny, Deny.

Always the same.

You got nothing. You can't even find your rapture in the book of Revelation. It's there somewhere.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

You can't support anything you say regarding end times with scripture................................

More Pretrib projection

 

[The Light]

His lack of willingness to address your points says it all. He is going to just believe what he wants to believe no matter what.

LOL. I addressed his monster post point by point. Of course, he denied that I addressed his post as usual. I reposted it all so the proof is in the pudding.

Anything he has, the scripture will disprove it. And you two sit around and pat each other on the back, trying to prop each other up all the while denying the facts.

I made it simple for him. Post one belief you have about Amil endtimes that I can't disprove with scripture. Simple request.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The rider of the white horse is clearly Jesus. The bow represents Gods covenant. Jacob a type of Christ wore a coat of many colors.

Jesus rose into Jerusalem on an ass which is in the horse family.

Jesus wore a crown of thorns. The crown in Revelation is a stephanous crown which is a woven wreath.

Jesus came to conquer sin and death.

I can see what you are saying and I like the image.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Apollo. He is the Greek god of archery. The Romans also borrowed Apollo from the Greeks.
View attachment 49346

Also, when He is discussed as the rider on the white horse, it is often claimed that he carries a bow with no arrows. That's a false conclusion. Thats like saying he carries a pistol with no bullets. Just because the arrows are not mentioned does not mean he is not carrying them.

You will find this false Messiah in most of the religions of the world. That is why, when he comes, he will be accepted so easily as the world is waiting for their false Messiah.

When the story of Jesus spread saying that God was His Father, the people of the world already knew that story. Tammuz the false Messiah was claimed that his mother Semiramis was impregnated by a ray of the sun. Nimrod at his death was claimed to be the sun in the false Babylonian religion.

It's the same story as Zeus the Greek god having relations with a human woman and their son was Hercules, the savior of the world. Satan know what was coming so he spread a false religion so the world would say we've already heard this story, and we already have our god.

On a sidenote, in most false religions the male god is the sun and the female god is the moon. However, in Islam, the male God is the moon. This is why there is a crescent moon on top of their masque.

In your view, does the white rider come in the first century or much later?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes! Colossians 1:15-17 addresses the great providential reign of Christ over all creation. Stating, Christ, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This is completely comprehensive. Christ is shown to be the ruler of all dominion and power. He is a sovereign God today. Satan is submitted to His authority. Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? With the Premillennial reasoning, they divest Christ of His rightful power.

Christ is king over all the earth. Can I remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king?

There are two aspects to the kingship of Christ. The first is the whole sphere of Christ’s providential rule over all creation. Revelation 1:5 reveals that Christ is the Sovereign archon or “Prince (or ruler) of the kings of the earth.” Christ currently rules over His enemies. The second aspect is the whole realm of Christ’s spiritual reign over all His new creation – the blood-bought Church. Revelation 15:3 tells us that He is the “King of saints.” It is only this second domain that is incorporated within the spiritual confines of the kingdom of God.

Paul and Silas had such an effect Jew and Greek in Thessalonica preaching , On the missionary journey of they saw many people come to faith in Christ, both The unbelieving Jews, being very angry, attempted to arrest the Apostles but not finding them, brought Jason and certain of the converts before the rulers of the city, crying, “These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus” (Acts 17:6-7).

Understanding the difference between these two realms is essential to comprehending the true nature of the kingdom of God. 1 Timothy 1:17 describes Christ as “the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”

Psalm 24:7-8 says, “Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.”

The term ‘archon’ or ‘ruler’ is found again in Acts 5:30-31 where Peter is seen addressing the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders. There he declares, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a archon (or) Prince (or ruler) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

There is His divine sovereign kingship over all creation as God, but there is also His Messianic kingship over His people – His elect, both Jew and Gentile, old covenant and new covenant. These do not conflict, but correlate beautifully. He reigns as God and man through this dualistic kingship. It involves His humanity and deity.

I understand that God the Father has given Jesus authority over all the earth. But why do we not see Jesus in control over the world now, in your view?

 

[WPM]

I made it simple for him. Post one belief you have about Amil endtimes that I can't disprove with scripture. Simple request.

Ok. Game on! Let us put your claims to the test. Let us take it one point at a time. We will see who has the truth and who his butchering it. We will see who the real literalists are and those who must spiritualize Scripture, twist it and explain it away, in order two letter doctrine fit.

My thesis: when Jesus comes He regenerates this earth, removes all corruption from creation, and banishes all sin, death, decay, rebellion and therefore the wicked. I am going to supply support from clear scriptural texts: please address them and stay away from the usual Pretrib avoidance and rabbit trails. I'm going to start with the removal of corruption from the earth.

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Romans 8:19-23 says (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of God elect). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.
Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. It will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premillennialists argue.

Acts 3:19-21: “the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). What God created, and man corrupted, will be restored, renewed and revealed. That is what God does!

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored [Gr. apokathistemi] whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored [Gr. apokathistemi], and saw every man clearly.”

Acts 3:19-21 is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.” Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

We are clearly looking at a renovation, reconstitution and restoration of creation when Jesus comes, not a complete recreation.

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish [Gr. apollumi]; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

To “perish” here equates to ‘waxing old’ and necessitates them to “be changed.”

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth and an eternally righteous state.

 

[WPM]

I understand that God the Father has given Jesus authority over all the earth. But why do we not see Jesus in control over the world now, in your view?

LOL. He is! You are always belittling Christ with your heresy of denying His Godhood.

Do you really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation? Do you realize the enormity of His authority and influence? Or do you believe that man or Satan is out of control and that Jesus is just sitting by helplessly watching on? Unfortunately, many Christians today have a misconception of that because of false teaching in regard to end-times. They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes. Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming. They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

They make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees made 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

What many do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by their faulty theology). They dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for some, because they then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Revelation 3:7 tells us: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

It is all fine-and-dandy you recognizing this intellectually in your mind, but you need to know this experientially in your heart.

This is basically telling us that God is in complete control of our life. He will open the doors as He sees fit and close doors that He doesn’t want us going through.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. I addressed his monster post point by point.

Where? Give me a post number or a link.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who teaches the truth of two raptures? Who are my teachers.

One rapture like the days of Noah and one like the days of lot.

Jesus is the one who compared the days before His coming and the day of His coming to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Show me where Jesus indicated that He was talking about two raptures in this passage?

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Where does Jesus refer to two different days when the Son of man is revealed here, with one related to Noah's day and one related to Lot's day? I don't see that. I see Him describing the days before the flood and the flood destroying them all and also the days before Sodom was destroyed and the day Lot went out of it and it "destroyed them all" and then Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". He said that in reference to both Noah's day and Lot's day. Your are basically trying to say Jesus referred to two different days when the Son of man is revealed, but He only referred to one day and compared it to both Noah's day and Lot's day.

Your doctrine was formed by unbelieving men who didn't believe that God would keep His promise to Israel. There are five wise and five foolish.

That is, of course, not true, but what are you intending to say when you say "There are five wise and five foolish"? That's obviously a reference to Matthew 25:1-13, but please explain what the point is that you're intending to make by referencing that parable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. He is! You are always belittling Christ with your heresy of denying His Godhood.

Do you really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation? Do you realize the enormity of His authority and influence? Or do you believe that man or Satan is out of control and that Jesus is just sitting by helplessly watching on? Unfortunately, many Christians today have a misconception of that because of false teaching in regard to end-times. They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes. Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming. They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

They make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees made 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

What many do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by their faulty theology). They dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for some, because they then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Revelation 3:7 tells us: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

It is all fine-and-dandy you recognizing this intellectually in your mind, but you need to know this experientially in your heart.

This is basically telling us that God is in complete control of our life. He will open the doors as He sees fit and close doors that He doesn’t want us going through.

Amen! How much more power and authority can Jesus have then ALL power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)? He can't have any more than that. Premils (and those who deny the deity of Christ as well) undermine the significance of what Jesus said there.

And what Paul said here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

God the Father "raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named...in this world" (in this age). How can He have any more authority than being "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named...in this world"? What things are not under His feet right now? None. God the Father "put all things under his feet.

Premils don't understand that Jesus reigning as King of kings and Lord of lords has nothing to do with Him being like a dictator who forces everyone to do His will. No, it has to do with the fact that no one can do anything without His permission. And He is "the head over all things to the church". He is the ruler over the church. We all answer to Him. That some don't acknowledge Him as King of kings and Lord of Lord doesn't change the fact that He is. If people say they don't acknowledge Joe Biden as the President of the United States, does that mean he's not the President? No. So, premils have the wrong perspective of what it means for Jesus to be King. Revelation 1:5 says He IS the prince or ruler of the kings of the earth. Was John making that up or should we accept that as being true? The latter, obviously.

 

[The Light]

In your view, does the white rider come in the first century or much later?

The rider on the white horse will come shortly in the future. The 7 seals are not opened yet.

 

[The Light]

Where? Give me a post number or a link.

Posts 2428, 2429, 2430, and 2431

 

[The Light]

Ok. Game on! Let us put your claims to the test. Let us take it one point at a time. We will see who has the truth and who his butchering it. We will see who the real literalists are and those who must spiritualize Scripture, twist it and explain it away, in order two letter doctrine fit.

My thesis: when Jesus comes He regenerates this earth, removes all corruption from creation, and banishes all sin, death, decay, rebellion and therefore the wicked. I am going to supply support from clear scriptural texts: please address them and stay away from the usual Pretrib avoidance and rabbit trails. I'm going to start with the removal of corruption from the earth.

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Romans 8:19-23 says (I will quote it from the NKJV as it is more accurate): “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (that is the glorification of God elect). For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthora or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body (that is the glorification of God elect).”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.
Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. It will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premillennialists argue.

Acts 3:19-21: “the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’). What God created, and man corrupted, will be restored, renewed and revealed. That is what God does!

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored [Gr. apokathistemi] whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored [Gr. apokathistemi], and saw every man clearly.”

Acts 3:19-21 is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.” Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

We are clearly looking at a renovation, reconstitution and restoration of creation when Jesus comes, not a complete recreation.

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered coat with another decayed coat, as many imagine, with their faulty theology. No! But rather a new perfected garment. Death and decay will soon come to an end. But this does not negate the continued existence of the same the earth. It will be an ongoing trophy of God's glorious regenerational renewal.

Psalm 102:25-27 predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

Isaiah 51:6 also says, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.”

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish [Gr. apollumi]; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

These passages confirm the reality of the ongoing existence of the bondage of corruption at the moment. This will all change when Jesus comes. Comparing this earth to a fading and deteriorating garment, the writer tells us that the current heavens and earth is waxing old. The Greek word employed here for “wax old” is palaioo which means worn out, decaying or to declare obsolete.

To “perish” here equates to ‘waxing old’ and necessitates them to “be changed.”

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old/temporal and wicked and introduces the beginning of all things new/eternal and righteous. The second coming witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgement. The wicked and the righteous are judged in total and that each receives their eternal destiny at that time. The conflagration that occurs here coincides with the replacement of this corrupt sin-cursed world with a new earth and an eternally righteous state.

And what are you wanting me to do with all these statements?

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. He is! You are always belittling Christ with your heresy of denying His Godhood.

You made a mistake, I think. I said nothing like that.

Do you really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation?

I'm not sure I entirely grasp his power. Who can? I asked whether Jesus has taken command of the world's governments or not.

They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes.

Do they imagine what they believe, or are they taught by the scriptures?

Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming.

So do and some don't. The scriptures teach that Jesus is king. Bear in mind that Jesus was King the Day Nathaniel gave his confession. But as I look out the window and see the evil and the spiritual darkness, I am compelled to ask you whether Jesus is in control or not. Given the evidence, do you believe Jesus is in control?

They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

They make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees made 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron.

That wasn't their mistake. That is the truth. Their mistake was to believe that being a Jew qualified them to be a member of the Kingdom of God.

What many do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today . . .

All I asked was whether Jesus is in control or not?

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation.

Again, look out the window and tell me what you see.

There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes!

Was Jesus ruling over the earth on October 7?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

I agree, but what does it mean that he is "over all?" It certainly doesn't mean that he is in control of anything does it?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind.

Are you sure? Do you get out much?

 

[WPM]

You made a mistake, I think. I said nothing like that.

I'm not sure I entirely grasp his power. Who can? I asked whether Jesus has taken command of the world's governments or not.

Do they imagine what they believe, or are they taught by the scriptures?

So do and some don't. The scriptures teach that Jesus is king. Bear in mind that Jesus was King the Day Nathaniel gave his confession. But as I look out the window and see the evil and the spiritual darkness, I am compelled to ask you whether Jesus is in control or not. Given the evidence, do you believe Jesus is in control?

That wasn't their mistake. That is the truth. Their mistake was to believe that being a Jew qualified them to be a member of the Kingdom of God.

All I asked was whether Jesus is in control or not?


Again, look out the window and tell me what you see.

Was Jesus ruling over the earth on October 7?

I agree, but what does it mean that he is "over all?" It certainly doesn't mean that he is in control of anything does it?

Are you sure? Do you get out much?

Typical heretic mocking Christ.

 

[WPM]

And what are you wanting me to do with all these statements?

Address the biblical reality I presented.

While we disagree on endtimes, I know you are not stupid. My argument is pretty simple.

 

[Douggg]

The rider on the white horse will come shortly in the future. The 7 seals are not opened yet.

I think what you meant to say is that none of the events of the 7 seals have begun yet.

All of the 7 seals were opened by Jesus as John and them in heaven watched , so that everyone would know what is in the book.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The marriage does not occur in the air. It occurs in heaven.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

This is typical of all of your responses. You make claims without any actual exegesis of the text. All you did here is refer to "much people in heaven". How does that say anything about a marriage taking place in heaven? All of your beliefs are based on speculation and assumptions. It does not say anything there about a marriage having taken place. Keep reading further from there...

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This indicates that the marriage has NOT taken place yet at that point, but the time for it to take place has come because "his wife hath made herself ready" for it. So, you took Revelation 19:1 completely out of context. And this is typical of how you interpret scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Posts 2428, 2429, 2430, and 2431

Thanks. I don't read every post, so I hadn't seen it. Imagine reading all 2,400+ posts in this thread. No, thanks. Anyway, yes, you did respond to his post, but your responses don't contain any exegesis of the text, which I'm sure is what he's talking about. I just gave one example in post #2459 of how you draw baseless conclusions from the text. You just make assumptions about what it's saying without the text itself giving any indication of what you're saying it means.