The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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CadyandZoe

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That's like saying "when the Bible says "peter" I see nothing to suggest that could possibly be an actual person.
Okay, I understand. But bear in mind that Jesus is borrowing from a Hebrew mythology concerning a place the Greeks called Hades and the Hebrews called "Sheol." According to Josephus, Sheol has two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the unrighteous dead. The compartment for the righteous dead is called "Abraham's Bosom."

Also, there is no set structure for a parable, because a parable can use any form of story as a vehicle to convey an idea. In this case, Jesus adopts the genre of a fable to tell a morality tale about a rich man, who was unkind and not merciful to the poor.

A parable does not name the people in it.
Why?
Because it is fictitious .

But let's pretend it is a parable.
The message is the same.
I agree, the message is the same. But we can not seek information about the afterlife from it.
 
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CadyandZoe

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LOL! Abraham and Moses aren't real people? Why include the detail of how many brothers the rich man had if it was a parable? What value would that add to a parable? That kind of detail would not be given in a parable. And since when did Jesus give names to people in a parable like Lazarus? LOL. You are so deceived.
I'm so surprised that someone who claims to know the Bible doesn't know that God hates mockers.
 

David in NJ

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The AC kills all refusing the mark.
That alone disqualifies any hope of running from cave to cave hoping to escape.

Ahem...no postrib rapture.
Good Morning,
If you can make it up here, i plan on ESCAPING to Salmon fishing at Pulaski, NY Lake Ontario.

The LORD promised that there will be His Saints on earth during and AFTER the Great Tribulation = Matt ch24 & 1 Thess 4:13-18


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

David in NJ

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Okay, I understand. But bear in mind that Jesus is borrowing from a Hebrew mythology concerning a place the Greeks called Hades and the Hebrews called "Sheol." According to Josephus, Sheol has two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the unrighteous dead. The compartment for the righteous dead is called "Abraham's Bosom."

Also, there is no set structure for a parable, because a parable can use any form of story as a vehicle to convey an idea. In this case, Jesus adopts the genre of a fable to tell a morality tale about a rich man, who was unkind and not merciful to the poor.


I agree, the message is the same. But we can not seek information about the afterlife from it.
God's words of REALITY are "fables and myths" ???
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I agree, the message is the same. But we can not seek information about the afterlife from it.
If it was a parable, then what do you think Jesus was teaching there? Why would Jesus want to give the impression that people experience torment in hell if that is not actually the case? Would Jesus really want to confuse people like that? If a rich man experiencing torment in hell is a made up story, then what does it represent in reality?

If you look at Jesus's parables, they always refer to real things that are used to figuratively represent other things in reality such as "a farmer, seed, birds, rocky places, soil, plants, thorns, the farmer's field, weeds (tares), wheat, the field owner, the field owner's enemy, the field owner's servants, the harvest, harvesters, treasure, a field, a merchant, fine pearls, a mustard seed, garden plants, a tree, a tree's branches, bread yeast, flour, a woman, a fishing net, a lake (or sea), fish (or sea creatures), and fishermen. Those are all from Jesus's parables in Matthew 13.

So, why, in Luke 16:19-31, would Jesus tell a parable that did not refer to real people and real things used to figuratively represent other things in reality like He did in all of His parables? Why do you try to claim that Abraham's bosom and hell/hades don't represent real places? Would you try to say that there's no such thing as a farmer's field or gardener's field or rocky places like He referenced in other parables? Of course not. So, why do you try to claim that Abraham's bosom and hell/hades are not real places when Jesus only referred to real types of people and real places and things in His parables that He used to figuratively represent other real people, places and things?

Why do you try to claim that Lazarus and the rich man aren't real people when Jesus only referred to real people in His parable like a farmer, a field owner, a merchant and a woman? Why would He give a name to a fictional person in a parable? Why would He only do that in one of His parables? Why would He specify how many brothers the rich man had if the rich man wasn't a real person? What significance does that kind of detail give to a parable? None. But, if it's a real person then it does have significance to include that detail.

Jesus NEVER referred to fictional things in His parables that don't exist in reality. Such as the list of things I showed above from His parables in Matthew 13. So, why would Luke 16:19-31 be an exception to that if it was a parable?
 
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CadyandZoe

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If it was a parable, then what do you think Jesus was teaching there?
If they won't listen to Moses, they won't listen to the Father, when he raises Jesus from the dead.
Why would Jesus want to give the impression that people experience torment in hell if that is not actually the case?
Jesus is adapting a myth that everyone already knew.
Would Jesus really want to confuse people like that?
It isn't confusing to those who live in that culture.
If a rich man experiencing torment in hell is a made up story, then what does it represent in reality?
It represents people who stubbornly resist the truth.
If you look at Jesus's parables, they always refer to real things that are used to figuratively . . .
The Law of Moses is real, and so is punishment and resurrection. Abraham's bosom isn't real.

Why do you try to claim that Abraham's bosom and hell/hades don't represent real places?
If people are resurrected to judgment, then hades and Abraham's bosom aren't real. It can't be both.
 

CadyandZoe

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You claim that they are!
@CandyZoe says: "But bear in mind that Jesus is borrowing from a Hebrew mythology concerning a place the Greeks called Hades and the Hebrews called "Sheol."
The Bible doesn't describe Hades, or Sheol. It only mentions them by name. In reality, Sheol is nothing more and nothing less than the grave -- a place where the dead are left.

Some cultures speculate that people are tormented in Hades and/or Sheol, but whatever people believe happens there is mere speculation and not Biblical.
 
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David in NJ

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The Bible doesn't describe Hades, or Sheol. It only mentions them by name. In reality, Sheol is nothing more and nothing less than the grave -- a place where the dead are left.

Some cultures speculate that people are tormented in Hades and/or Sheol, but whatever people believe happens there is mere speculation and not Biblical.
JESUS is now "speculating" based on Egyptian/Greek myths?


"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
 

David in NJ

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JESUS is now "speculating" based on Egyptian/Greek myths?


"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Believing JESUS at His word is called SAVING FAITH
 

CadyandZoe

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JESUS is now "speculating" based on Egyptian/Greek myths?
No. We are discussing one of Jesus' parables as recorded in Luke 16. In that passage, Jesus tells a fable, which has a basis in Hebrew mythology.
"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Here we can see that God destroys people in hell. Since people are destroyed in hell, we understand that they are not alive long enough to have conversations with each other as depicted in Jesus' fable.
 

The Light

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Didn't you indicate before that you understand there are some parallel passages in the book of Revelation that talk about the same things but from different angles? Or am I thinking of someone else?
The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe. That timeframe is the 7th seal which contains the wrath of God.

All 7 seals happen in order. There is no parallel to the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet or 7th vial.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest immediately after the tribulation of those days, and then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath.

If it was you, then why can't you understand that the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other rather than all of the trumpets and vials following the sixth seal? At the sixth seal it says "the great day of his wrath has come" (Rev 6:17). Your view makes it so that the great day of his wrath does not come at that point, but instead one year later.
The great day of His wrath is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is 1 year long. It is not a 24 hour period.

Destruction will be sudden when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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If they won't listen to Moses, they won't listen to the Father, when he raises Jesus from the dead.

Jesus is adapting a myth that everyone already knew.

It isn't confusing to those who live in that culture.

It represents people who stubbornly resist the truth.

The Law of Moses is real, and so is punishment and resurrection. Abraham's bosom isn't real.


If people are resurrected to judgment, then hades and Abraham's bosom aren't real. It can't be both.
All nonsense. But, you already know I believe that.

Why didn't you address what I said about Jesus specifying how many brothers the rich man had? Why would He include a detail like that in a parable?

Also, please address what I said in post #2245 which relates to the fact that Jesus never references things that aren't real in His parables that He uses to represent other things. That includes any places that He references. For example, the field in the parable of the wheat and tares refers to a farmer's field and it represents the world, as does the reference to the lake (or sea) in the parable of the good and bad fish in Matthew 13:47-50.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe. That timeframe is the 7th seal which contains the wrath of God.

All 7 seals happen in order. There is no parallel to the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet or 7th vial.
That seems very selective and manipulative for you to somehow conclude that the trumpets and vials are parallel in time but the seals are not. I can't take that seriously as it comes across as you making the book of Revelation say what you want it to say. And, of course, you have no other supporting scripture to back up your interpretations of the book of Revelation. For example, you can't point to Paul's writings for support since he only wrote about one rapture and one mass resurrection of believers.
 

The Light

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Not true! The seventh seal is silence in heaven. Read it. Stop adding onto the Bible. The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal. Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Pretrib has invented its own Bible.
Yeah. The 7th seal is only silence in heaven. Let's just pretend that those 7 trumpets of wrath are not there.

Please stop making like this. It cuts into my day. After a few minutes of full belly laughs, I find myself shaking my head and then looking at the ground in bewilderment. I begin wondering how a person can make such a comment. Then I start laughing again. I can only conclude that your dad was a hard worker and a union member.

 

Spiritual Israelite

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The Bible doesn't describe Hades, or Sheol. It only mentions them by name. In reality, Sheol is nothing more and nothing less than the grave -- a place where the dead are left.

Some cultures speculate that people are tormented in Hades and/or Sheol, but whatever people believe happens there is mere speculation and not Biblical.
What do you think Jesus talking about in the following verses where He referenced hell/Hades?

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (hades) for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Notice that the people of Capernaum thought they were going to heaven but Jesus said they would be brought down to hell instead. So, He was contracting heaven and hell there. You think He was contrasting heaven with the grave? What sense would that make?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it.

Do you think Jesus was telling Peter that the gates of the grave shall not prevail against the church? What would that mean?
 

The Light

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That seems very selective and manipulative for you to somehow conclude that the trumpets and vials are parallel in time but the seals are not.

Common sense. The seals are in order. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. The seventh seal contains the trumpets and vials.
I can't take that seriously as it comes across as you making the book of Revelation say what you want it to say.
Yeah right.

And, of course, you have no other supporting scripture to back up your interpretations of the book of Revelation. For example, you can't point to Paul's writings for support since he only wrote about one rapture and one mass resurrection of believers.
You'll find out soon there is more than one harvest.

Five wise, five foolish.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yeah. The 7th seal is only silence in heaven. Let's just pretend that those 7 trumpets of wrath are not there.
What do you think is the reason for the silence? From the post-trib view, the reason for it is that Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ are no longer there, but have descended from heaven at that point. The souls of the dead in Christ unite with their changed, immortal bodies, angels gather the church to Jesus and then Jesus proceeds to destroy His enemies just as is portrayed in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10.

Please stop making like this. It cuts into my day. After a few minutes of full belly laughs, I find myself shaking my head and then looking at the ground in bewilderment. I begin wondering how a person can make such a comment. Then I start laughing again. I can only conclude that your dad was a hard worker and a union member.
That's how I feel when I read your posts.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Common sense. The seals are in order. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. The seventh seal contains the trumpets and vials.
You mean uncommon nonsense.

You'll find out soon there is more than one harvest.
No, I won't.

Five wise, five foolish.
What is your point here? Do me a favor and exegete Matthew 25:1-13 for me to show exactly how you interpret it and why and then we can discuss it. Deal?
 
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