It reminds me of how the cults formulate their beliefs.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Pretrib cannot be found by objective biblical analyze. It has to be taught. It is such a far-fetched extra-biblical theory.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Jesus returns at the 6th seal. The second coming is after the Great Tribulation and before the 7th seal 1-year wrath of God. The 7th seal contains both the trumpets and vials. Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and then sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. When Jesus said to pray to be account worthy to escape all these things, He obviously wasn't referring to the things that He said we would see come to pass that would tell us His return is near. He was only talking about escaping God's wrath coming down on the entire earth when heaven and earth pass away. But, pretribs include those things as being among the things to pray that we are accounted worthy to escape. They are constantly missing the context of scripture.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's really amazing how he twists every scripture he uses to support his view. It's an incredible lack of honesty on his part. How can someone treat God's word that way without feeling guilty?
Amils base our doctrine on clear, straightforward scripture. Pretribs base their doctrine on the most highly symbolic and highly debatable books in all of scripture (Daniel and Revelation) and, in Douggg's case, on passages like Isaiah 14:18-20 which have absolutely nothing to do with the future.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Didn't you indicate before that you understand there are some parallel passages in the book of Revelation that talk about the same things but from different angles? Or am I thinking of someone else? If it was you, then why can't you understand that the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other rather than all of the trumpets and vials following the sixth seal? At the sixth seal it says "the great day of his wrath has come" (Rev 6:17). Your view makes it so that the great day of his wrath does not come at that point, but instead one year later.
Not true! The seventh seal is silence in heaven. Read it. Stop adding onto the Bible. The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal. Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Pretrib has invented its own Bible.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It is exactly how the cults formulate their beliefs. They cherry pick the scriptures that they think support their view and ignore the rest. And then they twist the scriptures they use to support their views to make them say what they want them to say.
Of course, we are not accusing any pretribs of being in a cult, but they should rethink their approach to end times doctrine since it's the same type of approach that the cults use to interpret the Bible.
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The opening of the 7th seal in Revelation 8:1 reveals that there will be 7 trumpet plagues. 3 of which are woes to the inhabiters of the earth (Revelation 8:13).
The 7th seal being opened thus is connected to the 7 trumpet plagues. Not the 7 vials of God's wrath that come later, but still during the great tribulation.
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Jesus's Second Coming is not until after the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials are complete. Therefore, to place the 1-year of God's wrath, it would span the 1 year before Jesus's Second Coming as I show on my chart.
These are recaps. Scripture does this all the time, unless there are numerous second coming, end of time, days of destruction, falls of Babylon, and last battles. Let the rest of Scripture show that there is one final future climatic coming of Christ.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, it does not. It reveals that there will be silence in heaven for a half hour after it's opened. That's it. You are once again trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.
Douggg, the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev 11:18). When are the dead judged? I'll give you a hint. It's written about in Revelation 20:11-15.
Revelation 8:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
I am going to explain the two above verses to you, so that hopefully you will be able to visualize.
Jesus opened the seventh seal on the book. When He did, there was silence in heaven, for a half an hour, as seven angels came forward and stood before God. And they were given seven trumpets. The verse does not say who handed them the seven trumpets - could have been Jesus or some other angel(s) or God the Father.
Jesus's opening the seventh seal in Revelation 8:1 results in revealing that there will be 7 angels, each given a trumpet to sound. And when each angel sounds his trumpet, a plague will take place. For a total of 7 plagues. The last three of which are woes to the inhabiters of the earth.
The seventh trumpet, the third woe, which you have a so hard a time understanding, lasts a time, times, half time. Which that timeframe encapsulates the other two woes.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Taking a literal, futuristic and chronological approach to interpreting the book of Revelation is the worst possible approach to interpreting the book, but that is exactly what pretribs do. You can't possibly have any understanding of the book by taking that approach to interpreting it. The book itself says it's about the past, the present and the future from that time (Revelation 1:19) all the way to the second coming of Christ. The first verse in the book says it was to be "signified", not literalized.
The seventh trumpet signals the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, as he will be cast down to earth.
During that time, times, half time - in heaven, the dead in Christ, who will have been resurrected. And the translated in Christ via the rapture. Will stand before the bema seat, i.e. judgement seat, of Christ. And will be given rewards for what they did for the cause of Christ during their lifetime here on earth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL!!! You thinking that you can explain anything to me is a joke. You, who ludicrously thinks the seventh trumpet sounds before the fifth and sixth trumpets. You, who believes the duration of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 refers to the human life span. You, who thinks God will resurrect some bad guy in the future in order to delude the minds of unbelievers. That is hilarious that you think you, the one who constantly twists scripture to make it say what you want it to say, can explain anything to me.
But, despite all that, I'll make you a deal. If you actually address the other thing I said in my post then I will address what you said in this post. Sound good? Seems fair, right? I shouldn't be the only one who addresses your points while you don't address mine.
We were talking about the order of the seals, trumpets and vials so I asked a question related to that. What I said was that the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev 11:18). When are the dead judged? I'll give you a hint. It's written about in Revelation 20:11-15.
Please address this.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL! The way you twist and contort scripture is truly unbelievable! You butcher scripture beyond recognition on a regular basis. No, it does NOT signal "the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, as he will be cast down to earth.". You are again making scripture say what you want it to say. You are a deceptive liar, Douggg. How can you live yourself when you treat scripture so dishonestly? Do you not have a conscience?
No, it says it signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev 11:18). When are the dead judged? After the thousand years and Satan's little season. Here is the time of the dead being judged:
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The seventh trumpet third woe covers the time spans of the first and second woes of the fifth and sixth trumpets.
It is not a matter of numerical sequence that the time-frame of each woe actions must follow.
Just as the events of the 7th seal begin before the event of the 6th seal. Prove that isn't so.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
How can the sounding of the seventh trumpet signal time, times and half a time when Rev 10 says that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound, "that there shall be time no longer"?
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Also how can Satan be cast down to earth when the seventh trumpet signals time, times and half a time when Rev 12 shows us the war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels with Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and to the earth happened when Christ (man-child) was born? Casting Satan and his angels out of heaven and to the earth was a time of great celebration of the angels in heaven, because that opened the gates of heaven for salvation, strength, and the Kingdom of our God and the power of Christ.
Revelation 12:4-10 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
We read after the resurrection of Christ; the gates of hell were opened. And the graves of saints of Old were opened and the saints who had died arose and came out of the graves and went into the holy city where they appeared to many. When Old Covenant saints died they went to that place of the grave called the bosom of Abraham. That part of the grave was emptied through the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven. Christ descended there to set the captives free, taking them with Him to heaven as the spiritual body of Christ.
Revelation 5:6 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Revelation 5:11-12 (KJV) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Luke 16:22 (KJV) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
The reason for the celebration of the angels in heaven after Satan and his angels were cast out and bound to the earth, is that Christ's birth ushered in a period of time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Gospel proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth. This period of time John symbolizes a thousand years began with the advent of Christ and will end when the seventh angel begins to sound. The celebration in heaven is anticipatory of fulfillment of all that would come to pass when Christ the promised Messiah would finally come to earth, in the day/age/time of the Lord the prophets foretell would come. By His miraculous birth, Christ ushered in the Day of the Lord. The time the prophets foretell when THE Messiah Savior would come, a time when all the prophets have written of Him would come to pass. All because Christ was born and the doors to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven were opened, and the Kingdom of God would be complete as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.
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