The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

It’s the 7th trumpet when Christ returns.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

The 7th trumpet begins to sound, not at Jesus's return. But a time, times, half time before Jesus returns.

Revelation 11:15 is the reaction in heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds - signaling Satan being cast down to earth and his time short.

The 7th trumpet signals what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be. On my chart below, I show the 3 trumpet woes. I know it is a little counter intuitive that the 7th trumpet woe beginning to sound actually will take place before the 5th and 6th trumpets.

The third woe (Satan's wrath on the inhabiters of the earth) actually spans across the second and third woes.

 

[honeycomb]

A wise man would realize that is undeniable proof that your beliefs are in error.

And scripture will prove these erroneous beliefs incorrect over and over and over. It's time some of you open your eyes.

You know what? The most astonishing aspect of the false rapture theory is that the Bible is very explicit about when Jesus Christ will return. He returns at the seventh trump, the last trump, after Satan appears in Jerusalem professing to be God. Paul explained this so perfectly and clearly that we who have eyes to see and ears to hear cannot miss who comes first:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)

 

[Douggg]

the Bible is very explicit about when Jesus Christ will return. He returns at the seventh trump, the last trump,

PEtRA, when does this woe take place ? and how long does it last ?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What are them in heaven doing in Revelation 11:15-18 ? They are rejoicing, right ? Because Satan's power over the nations is coming to an end. He will have but a time, times, half time left.

Down below on my great tribulation chart, I show the time, times, half that Satan will have left.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bringing the person back to life is the strong delusion that God will send to them who believed the person's big lie that he had achieved God hood.

2Thessalonians2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

No, it isn't. That is complete nonsense. Your doctrine consists of making up stories, creating new definitions for words and making scripture say what you want it to say. Your treatment of scripture is very dishonest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. You mean like you guys do and falsify the words.

Give even one example of this, liar.

Nah, I don't need to put false information to lead others from the truth. The scripture is clear enough.

Exegete some scripture for once then. Show clearly how scripture supports your view instead of just making claims without clearly backing them up. Can you do that?

So what trumpet is that rapture in. Just quote the verse. I don't need you to doctor it up with false information.

When are the dead in Christ resurrected? When Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23). The rapture occurs when Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Thess 2:1, Matt 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27). Paul said that the dead in Christ are resurrected at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). Which trumpet is the last trumpet? The seventh trumpet. So, the rapture will occur at the seventh trumpet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

PEtRA, when does this woe take place ? and how long does it last ?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What are them in heaven doing in Revelation 11:15-18 doing ? They are rejoicing, right ? Because Satan's power over the nations is coming to an end. He will have but a time, times, half time left.

Down below on my great tribulation chart, I show the time, times, half that Satan will have left.


View attachment 49065

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are constantly manipulating scripture to make it say what you want it to say. What a joke! You have the seventh trumpet sounding already even before the fifth and sixth trumpets sound! This is utter lunacy! The most dishonest treatment of scripture imaginable. Shameful, blatant twisting of scripture.

The order of the trumpets in Douggg's delusional, twisted doctrine: 1, 2, 3 ,4 ,7, 5, 6. LOL!!! Unbelievable. There is no one on this entire forum who changes, twists, manipulates and butchers scripture more than you do to make it say what you want it to say. It's disgusting and disgraceful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are such a manipulator of Scripture. You twist it to make it say whatever you want. Shame on you!

He does it constantly. Nowhere does scripture teach that some imaginary Antichrist will be resurrected as he falsely believes. Nowhere does scripture define the word generation as the human life span as he does. Nowhere does Revelation indicate that the seventh trumpet starts sounding before the fifth and sixth trumpets sound, as he believes. It goes on and on. He is completely dishonest in his treatment of scripture, which is shameful. He literally does twist it to make it say whatever he wants it to say. He needs to repent of his dishonesty. How can someone be so reckless and dishonest when interpreting the holy word of God? It's unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This thread has put pretrib six feet under, but people keep trying, and failing miserably, to bring it back from the dead. All they do is dig the hole even deeper with their dishonest, failed attempts to prove the ridiculous pretrib rapture theory. Any objective person reading this thread can clearly see that the pretrib rapture theory is nothing more than a joke. He or she can see that no pretribs ever exegete any scripture. They would rather just share their wild theories, speculations and assumptions and then claim they have proven something by merely claiming something to be true without doing anything of substance to prove it.

Post-trib is the winner of this debate by knockout. It wasn't even close. The pretrib rapture doctrine is easily one of the most ridiculous, unsupportable doctrines that any Christians believe in.

 

[The Light]

Give even one example of this, liar.

Really? Here is WPM changing the greek word kataxioō to katischuo. He got caught.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.Yeah yeah

And here is my response.

Only problem is YOU ARE TOTALLY MISREPRENTING THE SCRIPTURE. You are changing the word kataxioō which means "To account worthy or judge worthy" to katischuo WHICH IS NOT IN THE TEXT.
Don't you think that this is dishonest and leading others from the truth?

Additionally, you leave out the word ekpheugō which means to flee out or escape.

Who really twists the scripture to protect their false doctrine?

Further, the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which prove the tribulation HAS NOT BEGUN YET. So your contention is totally and completely false.

 

[The Light]

When are the dead in Christ resurrected? When Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-17,

Exactly.........pretrib. The dead in Christ rise first. The barley harvest.

1 Cor 15:22-23). The rapture occurs when Christ returns

This is Christ returning for the second harvest which occur at the 6th seal.

(1 Thess 4:14

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When the Lord returns for the alive that remain, the wheat harvest, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

-5:3,

This is Paul talking about the Day of the Lord
1 Thes 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Why does Paul not say......but of the time and season? The Lord comes more than once.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Thess 1:7-10,

This is the Lord returning at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

2 Thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thess 2:1

This is also the gathering that takes place at the 6th seal. Then the Day of the Lord will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matt 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27).

This occurs at the 6th seal after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Paul said that the dead in Christ are resurrected at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52).

This occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal after the great tribulation.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is when MANY are raised from the dead. It is the 6th seal coming of Jesus.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Which trumpet is the last trumpet?

The last trumpet will be blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is the fall fruit harvest. This will occur with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The seventh trumpet. So, the rapture will occur at the seventh trumpet.

The 7th blown by an angel is when Christ sets up His kingdom. WRATH IS OVER.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

All that are in the graves in this time will be raised. The believers have already been raptured BEFORE the 7th seal is opened.

 

[The Light]

This thread has put pretrib six feet under, but people keep trying, and failing miserably, to bring it back from the dead. All they do is dig the hole even deeper with their dishonest, failed attempts to prove the ridiculous pretrib rapture theory. Any objective person reading this thread can clearly see that the pretrib rapture theory is nothing more than a joke. He or she can see that no pretribs ever exegete any scripture. They would rather just share their wild theories, speculations and assumptions and then claim they have proven something by merely claiming something to be true without doing anything of substance to prove it.

Deny, deny, deny.

You have been responded to with scripture. And yet you deny it ever happened.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God when Paul says we are not appointed to wrath.

Post-trib is the winner of this debate by knockout. It wasn't even close. The pretrib rapture doctrine is easily one of the most ridiculous, unsupportable doctrines that any Christians believe in.

You don't even understand that you are post wrath as the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

You are about to find out how very real the fact that the Lord will come in an hour that you think not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? Here is WPM changing the greek word kataxioō to katischuo. He got caught.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.Yeah yeah

And here is my response.

Only problem is YOU ARE TOTALLY MISREPRENTING THE SCRIPTURE. You are changing the word kataxioō which means "To account worthy or judge worthy" to katischuo WHICH IS NOT IN THE TEXT.
Don't you think that this is dishonest and leading others from the truth?

Why are you so merciless and lacking in grace? Did you even give him a chance to explain where he got that information from? Why do you assume he was purposely trying to misrepresent scripture there?

And, how exactly does interpreting the word as meaning "to account worthy or judge worthy" support pre-trib? Surely, he was not trying to change the definition of the word because he thought your definition of the word would mean the verse supports pre-trib. It certainly does not. So, why not give him a chance to explain himself instead of judging him like this?

Additionally, you leave out the word ekpheugō which means to flee out or escape.

What is this in reference to exactly?

Who really twists the scripture to protect their false doctrine?

Not WPM or me. You are obviously just making that assumption without even giving someone a chance to explain themselves. That is very un-Christlike.

Do you have any other examples of us or any other Amil supposedly purposely twisting scripture to fit our doctrine?

Further, the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which prove the tribulation HAS NOT BEGUN YET. So your contention is totally and completely false.

This is just your opinion and does not prove anything, so it doesn't relate to your false accusation of us twisting scripture.

 

[The Light]

You know what? The most astonishing aspect of the false rapture theory is that the Bible is very explicit about when Jesus Christ will return.

Yes. We are told that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

He returns at the seventh trump, the last trump, after Satan appears in Jerusalem professing to be God. Paul explained this so perfectly and clearly that we who have eyes to see and ears to hear cannot miss who comes first:

That is not Satan professing to be God. That is the Antichrist professing to be God.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)

THAT DAY is the Day of the Lord.

Paul is telling them that don't believe those that say they are in the Day of the Lord. He is saying that the gathering from heaven and earth cannot happen until the man of sin has been revealed.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord is the 7th seal.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deny, deny, deny.

Yes, I will continue to deny your false doctrine.

You have been responded to with scripture. And yet you deny it ever happened.

You have not responded with any exegesis of scripture. Anyone can just quote or reference a bunch of scripture. Does that alone prove anything? Of course not. Show clearly how the scripture supports your doctrine. You never do that. Can you at least try to do that?

You have the Church going through the wrath of God when Paul says we are not appointed to wrath.

This is a lie. Do you think lying supports your case? I absolutely do not have the church experiencing any of God's wrath in my doctrine. Stop your lies!

You don't even understand that you are post wrath as the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The only wrath that we would need to be taken off of the earth to avoid is when the "sudden destruction" by fire from which unbelievers "shall not escape" comes "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Luke 21:33-36) which will happen unexpectedly on the day when Jesus comes like a thief in the night.

You are about to find out how very real the fact that the Lord will come in an hour that you think not.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly.........pretrib. The dead in Christ rise first. The barley harvest.

Total nonsense. Where does Paul describe that as the barley harvest? Nowhere. You add things to scripture that aren't there. You try to make it say what you want it to say.

This is Christ returning for the second harvest which occur at the 6th seal.

If there was going to be a second rapture why did Paul never make any reference to it? Do you think you know better than Paul about what is going to happen?

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

When the Lord returns for the alive that remain, the wheat harvest, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.

Yes, that is talking about their souls. Their bodies will rise first and after that they, together with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

This is Paul talking about the Day of the Lord
1 Thes 5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

That is Paul transitioning from talking about what will happen to believers on the day Christ returns to talking about what will happen to unbelievers on that day. He indicated that the rapture and the punishment of unbelievers will happen on the same day here as well:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Why does Paul not say......but of the time and season? The Lord comes more than once.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This is nonsense. That was simply a figurative way of saying the same thing Jesus said which is that no one knows the day or hour that He will come. Paul was saying that there's no reason to talk about when He is coming because no one knows the day or hour He will come.

This is the Lord returning at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

LOL. Total nonsense. How can you think that Jesus coming with His angels to gather the elect doesn't happen ON the day of the Lord? Good grief. Total ridiculous nonsense.

2 Thes 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Do you somehow imagine that this passage supports your view? This is obviously referring to the day of the Lord. The vengeance and destruction referred to here clearly equates to the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will occur on the day of the Lord as Paul taught in 1 Thess 5:2-3.

This is also the gathering that takes place at the 6th seal. Then the Day of the Lord will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

Total nonsense. At the sixth seal, it says the wrath of the Lamb has come. It is at hand at that point.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What is "the great day of his wrath"? Clearly, that is the same as the day of the Lord! And this says it has come at the sixth seal. Why do you ignore things like this?

That's why there is silence in heaven at the seventh seal because Christ will have left heaven at that point with the dead in Christ to meet His own in the air and take vengeance on all of His enemies. That IS the day of the Lord when He comes to meet His own and destroys His enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. We are told that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But, what are "all these things" in that context? I know what you think they are, but I can clearly show how you take it out of context.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I know from what you've said before that you think "all these things" in verse 36 refer to all of the things that Jesus previously talked about, but that does not fit the context of verse 36. If you look at Luke 21:28-31 you can see that "these things" there refer to things that we would see come to pass which would indicate that His coming is near. So, it would make no sense to pray to be accounted worthy to escape things that Jesus said we would see come to pass. Instead, what He was saying that we should pray to be accounted worthy to escape was heaven and earth passing away and escaping God's wrath that will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" on "that day" that Jesus returns.

 

[WPM]

Isaiah 14......Verse 15 switches to the Antichrist, who Satan will be instrumental in the Antichrist's claiming of having achieved God-hood.

What lands the Antichrist's soul in hell in Isaiah 14, for a brief period of time, maybe a couple of days, is that he will be
assassinated for his "transgression of desolation" act of 2Thessalonians2:3-4. That he will be assassinated is in Ezekiel 38:1-10, for sitting in the seat of God.

Let's look at those two verses, regarding the "transgression of desolation" act....

2Thessalonians2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

.... back in Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Judas was also known as the son of perdition. And was also a betrayer - of Jesus (Luke 22:6). Jesus of course was a Jew ethnically speaking.

Whether Satan literally entered Judas, or got into his head by placing the thought there of betraying Jesus - I don't know. But we do know for certain that Satan influenced Judas's actions in Judas becoming known as the son of perdition.

So we have a parallel, regarding the Antichrist. Called the son of perdition, like Judas, and also betrayer who will turn on his own Jewish people and the nation of Israel (Isaiah 14:.20). And like Satan was instrumental in Judas's action, Satan will be instrumental in the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even more ....

When the Antichrist is assassinated, in Ezekiel 28:8 it says....
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

When Jesus told the story about the rich man and Lazarus, in the place of the dead (16:19-31) - hell it appears is divided into two areas (annotated below on my graphic), separated by an impassable great gulf. I think that great gulf is the bottomless pit.

So when the slain man of sin's soul is cast out of hell in Isaiah 14:19, coming out of the adjacent bottomless pit at the same time will be the spirit of the garden of Eden serpent beast used by Satan to deceive Adam and Eve into sin.

That unclean spirit of the serpent beast will enter the former Antichrist (thought-to-be messiah by the Jews for a while) and is why in Revelation, going forward for the last 42 months of the 7 years, the person is called "the beast".




View attachment 49051


View attachment 49052

You are so lacking in scriptural support you are forced to twist passage after passage to say what you have been taught. This is ridiculous. This is why we should reject Pretrib.

 

[WPM]

What avoidance are you referring to. I have asked to keep it simple and try to post any end time belief you have that I can't disprove with scripture. Simple enough, and yet it is you that are avoiding.

Got any scripture that disproves what I'm saying. Nope. Just personal attacks.



Ah. The usual denial. Quit your babbling and try to post your end time beliefs that I can't disprove with scripture.

Yakety yak..........yak yak yak. I have given you the simplest task of choosing any end time belief you have that I can't disprove with scripture. Stop avoiding.

LOL. How about starting with the Op. You have been ducking around the biblical evidence for long enough.

 

[WPM]

But, what are "all these things" in that context? I know what you think they are, but I can clearly show how you take it out of context.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I know from what you've said before that you think "all these things" in verse 36 refer to all of the things that Jesus previously talked about, but that does not fit the context of verse 36. If you look at Luke 21:28-31 you can see that "these things" there refer to things that we would see come to pass which would indicate that His coming is near. So, it would make no sense to pray to be accounted worthy to escape things that Jesus said we would see come to pass. Instead, what He was saying that we should pray to be accounted worthy to escape was heaven and earth passing away and escaping God's wrath that will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" on "that day" that Jesus returns.

Contextually, this is talking about the destruction of all corruption - including the wicked and fallen creation. He has no answer to that. All he has is Pretrib soundbites.

 

[honeycomb]

That is not Satan professing to be God. That is the Antichrist professing to be God.

Satan IS the Antichrist. I can’t imagine how in the world you don’t know that.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

- Revelation 12:7-10 (KJV)