The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[honeycomb]

There is no such thing as spiritual, mortal bodies. Please stop trying to change scripture to fit your doctrine.

What scripture am I changing? The minute you start getting disrespectful, that’s when we’ll stop discussing. Is that okay with you?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why not?

It's a contradiction.

The law of non-contradiction states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. An example of a statement that violates this law would be:

“I am both standing up and sitting down right now.”

So, for instance, Jesus cannot be self-sufficient and not self-sufficient at the same time. He cannot be self-existing and not self-existing at the same time. He cannot be omniscient and not omniscient at the same time. He can not be transcendent and not transcendent at the same time.

There is nothing that says this. That is what you want to believe. You are deceived.

To reject the law of non-contradiction is to reject reason altogether.

Scripture says the world was made BY Him and FOR Him and you deny that.

See my argument above. We dare not base our doctrine on a Greek preposition. Paul says that Jesus is God's image and the firstborn of all creation. Since Jesus is preeminent among all those who have been created, then it was God who created him, not the other way around.

You deny clear scripture repeatedly. Why should anyone listen to you?

Why does anybody listen to anyone else?

Would I ask if I knew? Of course not. Why do you play games like this? Who said something about having this thread shut down?

It is no game. Threads have been shut down in the past when they turned to a discussion of the Trinity Doctrine. I want to keep the discussion about the Pretribulation doctrine going, but since you and WPM raised the issue of the Trinity, I fear this discussion is about to be closed. And it will be your fault, not mine.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"...the world through Him came into being..."

Is the Greek a mistranslation too?

The Greek is not a translation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize simple questions were too difficult for you to answer.

Simple questions are like tall grass. They hide dangers that aren't apparent at first.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you JW, Unitarian or Mormon or have you ever been those movements?

No. Not JW. Not Unitarian, Not Mormon.

 

[WPM]

No. Not JW. Not Unitarian, Not Mormon.

Just share their blindness and agree with their heresy. Sad!

 

[WPM]

Simple questions are like tall grass. They hide dangers that aren't apparent at first.

You're also paranoid as well! Lol.

Are you into conspiracy theories in your spare time?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was prewrath which is really post trib as the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. But I kept seeing two raptures all over scripture. When I saw this I was sure and then everything fell into place.

I don't see that at all. And neither did Paul, as evidenced by the fact that he only referenced one rapture (1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 2:1-3).

It is the Jews that will still be here. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove the blindness from part of Israel.

Romans 11 gets misinterpreted by many who do not take the time to look at it closely. Dispensationalists like you act as if all of Israel was blinded in Paul's day and then one day in the future blindness will be removed from some of them with the rest being killed in the tribulation. That is not at all what Paul taught in Romans 11. Let's examine what Paul taught there closely.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Can you see here that there was a remnant of elect Israelite believers who were not blinded? That's what Israel being blinded in part means. The elect remnant were not blinded, but rather "the rest were blinded".

So, that clears up what Israel being blinded in part means. Now, when is the blindness removed? Not until some future time as you believe? Again, that is not what Paul taught.

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Here, Paul says that the unbelieving, blinded Israelites stumbled, but did not fall. In your doctrine, they fell and did not stumble. Paul said he hoped to help save some of those who were blinded and I'm certain that he did just that. So, even in his day the blindness of some Israelites who had been blinded was removed. To postpone that until some future time takes Romans 11 completely out of context. Starting in Paul's day until now any Israelite who has been blinded in order to be provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles so that "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23).

I'll just leave it at that for now so you can comment on this even though there's much more I can say about Romans 11 as well.

One group the Church can escape the hour of testing that will come on all the world. The Jews will be in the hour of testing as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Where does scripture teach anything about anyone escaping "the hour of testing that will come on all the world" by way of a rapture?

The things He describes as all these things...........................
Luke 21
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When Jesus said we can escape all these things, He was talking about the things He had talked about. However, there is a group that will see all these things. This following verse is the proof that you are mistaken.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

So how can someone see these things come to pass if the things that come to pass are heaven and earth passing away?

As I said, ALL the things that we can escape are the things that Jesus listed which includes the great tribulation.

This is common sense. Simple logic.

So how can someone see these things come to pass if the things that come to pass are heaven and earth passing away?

As I said, ALL the things that we can escape are the things that Jesus listed which includes the great tribulation.

You are not reading that carefully. You can not include "these things" that Jesus referenced in Luke 21:31 as the things that we should pray to escape! He said we would see those things and when we do we would know His return is near. When believers see those things coming to pass, then they will know His coming is near and "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand".

You are not being careful in your study of scripture here. You are not looking at context. You are only skimming the surface. Please take a closer look at the text.

It will take at least 1 year as the Day of the Lord is one-year long. The things you want to do in 24 hours takes at least a year to do. It starts with this, the first trumpet of the wrath of God. The sudden destruction comes when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

Revelation 8
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.



The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

The very day.............the Day of the Lord............the earth will be burning. And the very day........the Day of the Lord sudden destruction will come. These events happen in the one year Day of the Lord..........The day of His wrath...........the day of vengeance and the YEAR OF RECOMPENSES.

Give some thought to what I am saying. How can we see all these things come to pass if those things are the destruction of heaven and earth? That would not be possible.

You're not getting it! Please read what I'm saying more carefully. It's not the things that He mentions AFTER verse 31 that we would see come to pass before His return, it's the things He mentions BEFORE verse 31 that we would see coming to pass which would indicate that His coming is near. You are the one not giving thought to what I'm saying, not the other way around.

 

[covenantee]

The Greek is not a translation.

Of course not.

So are you claiming that it should read:

"...the world through it came into being..."

?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We need to understand the difference between incorruptible and immortal.

To destroy means into the lake of fire (symbolically). Blotted out is mor accurate.

I don't know what you're saying. Can you explain? Paul said that when we're changed our bodies will be both incorruptible and immortal. Why are you trying to act as if he said something about people's bodies being made incorruptible at one point and then immortal at some other point? That's not what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 at all. He indicated our bodies will be changed to be incorruptible and immortal at the same time which will be at the last trumpet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What scripture am I changing? The minute you start getting disrespectful, that’s when we’ll stop discussing. Is that okay with you?

Yes, that's okay with me. I will leave those kinds of comments out. I just don't know where you are getting the idea of spiritual, mortal bodies. Please show me where scripture teaches that.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You keep digging the hole deeper for yourself. You said you use the NASB translation.

(NASB) Colossians 15:He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

You say Jesus didn't create all things. This passage says "by Him all things were created", and this is your preferred translation. So, how many other verses have you removed from the NASB that results in the CadyandZoe NASB Altered Translation?

I also said that the NASB had the same influence. I see that the passage says "by Him all things were created." But that is NOT what Paul meant. This is obvious to most people who read the entire passage carefully.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just share their blindness and agree with their heresy. Sad!

I'm not falling for this WPM. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

You're also paranoid as well! Lol.

Are you into conspiracy theories in your spare time?

Stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's a contradiction.

The law of non-contradiction states that contradictory propositions cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. An example of a statement that violates this law would be:

“I am both standing up and sitting down right now.”

You use human, natural reasoning to try to understand what is spiritual and supernatural. That's just not a good idea.

Can we understand and explain exactly how God created the heavens and the earth? No, we can't, right? But, we believe it, anyway, because scripture teaches it.

It is no game. Threads have been shut down in the past when they turned to a discussion of the Trinity Doctrine. I want to keep the discussion about the Pretribulation doctrine going, but since you and WPM raised the issue of the Trinity, I fear this discussion is about to be closed. And it will be your fault, not mine.

On this forum? I don't think so. If so, it's rare. Look at the kind of things they allow on this forum. We get called "Satan", "evil spirits" and many other over the top insults and nothing is done about it. So, I have no concern about this thread being shut down and neither should you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Simple questions are like tall grass. They hide dangers that aren't apparent at first.

Nonsense. What is dangerous about these questions:

Do you believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time? Yes or no?

Do you believe that Jesus, as God, created all things? Yes or no?

Nothing dangerous about these questions at all. No reason at all for anyone to be afraid to answer them. But, based on other things you've said, your answer would be "no" to both questions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I also said that the NASB had the same influence.

So, why do you use it? I would never use a translation that I believed taught false doctrine.

I see that the passage says "by Him all things were created." But that is NOT what Paul meant. This is obvious to most people who read the entire passage carefully.

LOL. Of course it's not what he meant. Uh huh. Okay.

And, no, it's only obvious to people like you who don't want to believe that Jesus created all things no matter how many scriptures say so.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course not.

So are you claiming that it should read:

"...the world through it came into being..."

?

No, the translation should read, "the world came into being "for the sake of" Him." Jesus is the reason why God created the world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nonsense. What is dangerous about these questions:

Anyone who has sat before congress knows the answer.

Do you believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time?

Jesus is the image of God.

Do you believe that Jesus, as God, created all things? Yes or no?

No. God created the world for the sake of Jesus.

Nothing dangerous about these questions as well.

Incorrect. What if I asked you, "Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or NO?!" If you didn't ever beat your wife, there is no correct answer to the question. If you say "yes" you imply that you formerly beat your wife. If you say "no" then you imply that you haven't ceased beating your wife." Your insistence on a yes or no answer is a bit naïve.

No reason at all for anyone to be afraid to answer them. But, based on other things you've said, your answer would be "no" to both questions.

Your attempt to entrap me is a bit unexpected, and it is also a bit naïve. I am giving you complete answers to your questions, spending extra time and effort to help you see my position, which I believe is Biblical. Your limited patience reveals an unwillingness to examine the facts and weigh them with a balanced set of scales.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Incorrect. What if I asked you, "Did you stop beating your wife? Yes or NO?!" If you didn't ever beat your wife, there is no correct answer to the question.

LOL. You can't seriously be equating that question to the question of whether Jesus is both God and man at the same time and whether Jesus created all things. Unbelievable.

Your made up question is an invalid question since I never beat my wife. Conversely, my questions are quite valid. Either Jesus is both God and man or He is not. There's no in between. Similarly, either Jesus created all things or He did not. Very simple.

If you say "yes" you imply that you formerly beat your wife. If you say "no" then you imply that you haven't ceased beating your wife." Your insistence on a yes or no answer is a bit naïve.

You are being naive in thinking your question can be compared to my questions, which are not invalid questions like yours, but can easily be answered with a yes or no since what I asked about is either true or it isn't.

Your attempt to entrap me is a bit unexpected, and it is also a bit naïve.

So, WPM is right. You are paranoid. I'm not trying to entrap you, I'm trying to narrow down what exactly it is that you believe. And the reason I'm doing that is not to entrap you (wow), but to try to get clarification of what exactly you believe since you both deny the deity of Christ and claim He is God. Those things are contradictory as far as I'm concerned. You must be using a different definition for the word "deity" than I am. So, I'm trying to ask questions to get some kind of clarification of why you say things that seem contradictory.

I am giving you complete answers to your questions, spending extra time and effort to help you see my position, which I believe is Biblical. Your limited patience reveals an unwillingness to examine the facts and weigh them with a balanced set of scales.

Limited patience? LOL. Many Christians would have stopped talking to you long before I have because most Christians would believe that your belief is non-Christian and heretical and not worth even talking about in a thread like this.