The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

This all proves one final future coming of Christ that confirms a general resurrection and a general judgment. Thanks for showing us up.

Let me help you. I will be happy to show you up again. You seem unable grasp these things but I'll try.

Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel shows that MANY that sleep in dust shall awake, WHEN THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL ARE DELIVERED. That happens at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It occurs before the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The people of Daniel are delivered when Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. They are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

None of your claims agree with the Word of God. There is no scripture that supports what you say.

 

[Douggg]

You've no proof of anything that you say here. You seem to make it up as you go along. The detail that is connected to the arrival of the day of the Lord is absolutely destructive. No one can possibly survive it. This totally destroys the theory of a future millennium after the second coming.

1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

I believe that Jesus will reign and rule on this present earth for a thousand years following His Second Coming.

Zechariah 14 proves it.

 

[The Light]

Events revealed when the seals are opened. That is what you need to look at. Not seal numbers. Events.

The events cannot happen until the seals are opened. And the 7th seal CANNOT open until the 6th seal is opened.

The "tribulation of those days" is over when the events of the sixth seal takes place.

The tribulation is actually over before the 6th seal is opened, as the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

The word "great" is intentionally left out in Matthew 24:29. Because the great tribulation is not fully over at the time the events of the sixth seal takes place. There is still one vial of God's wrath left, the 7th vial.

These verses prove that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This verse shows the wrath of God is about to begin. And it will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

TRIBULATION IS NOT THE WRATH OF GOD. They happen in different time frames as shown above.

I will walk you through it.

The sign of the Son of Man takes place in the sixth seal event. Jesus, sickle in hand.

The kings of the earth are terrified.

Exactly. But the tribulation is over and then they will be cast into the wrath of God.

Then in Revelation 16, the sixth vial, the kings of the earth are convinced to make war on Jesus. They begin gathering their armies at Armageddon in preparation.

Armageddon occurs a year after the wrath of God begins.

God allows them 45 days. During the 45 days, Jesus sits in heaven on his throne, a white cloud at his feet, while the kings of the earth make ready.

Right before He descends to earth, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out on the world in Revelation 16:17-21.

Then Jesus descends to earth to destroy those armies gathered against him (Revelation 19:18-19). The beast and the false prophet are dealt with (Revelation 19:20) first. Then In Revelation 19:21, the armies are destroyed.

Then in Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison. Bringing the great tribulation to a close.

You are confusing the tribulation with the wrath.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes for the harvest. That is why you see a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. Unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God and the 7th seal is opened.

 

[Douggg]

The events cannot happen until the seals are opened. And the 7th seal CANNOT open until the 6th seal is opened.

The opening of the seals reveals what the events will be. All of the seals on the book have been opened, so we know what the events will be.

The events of the 7th seal are the 7 trumpet plagues, to happen during the great tribulation. The event of the 6th seal will take place near the end of the great tribulation.

The tribulation is actually over before the 6th seal is opened, as the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.

The great tribulation is not closed until Satan is cast into the bottomless pit in Revelation 20:1-3. There is not gathering of the elect taking place during the time of the sixth seal events.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is after Jesus has returned to this earth. It is referring to the gathering of the Jews back to land of Israel. Matthew 24:31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28. The gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel, even if scattered to the farthest parts of heaven (a metaphor for the most distant nations), is a promise that God made to them back in Deuteronomy 30:4-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

You are confusing the tribulation with the wrath.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes for the harvest. That is why you see a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. Unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God and the 7th seal is opened.

Daniel 12:11 - 1290 days from the time the abomination of desolation is setup - until the Sign of the Son of man in heaven

Daniel 12:12 - 1335 days from the time the abomination of desolation is setup - until Jesus's Second Coming.

The 45 days in between, the kings of the earth will gather their armies to prepare to make war on Jesus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh, ok, exposing your denial of the deity of Christ is ad hominem? Yea right!

Yes, it is. First of all, the deity of Christ is not relevant to this discussion. Second of all, you are attempting to discredit me, rather than defend your false teaching.

It is a fact. That makes you a heretic!

I don't care. Everyone here knows that I am a heretic. My view is Biblical, even if it isn't orthodox.
Even so, I respect the board rules and don't discuss the issue in this forum.

And, no, you have not exposed any errors in the Op re the absurdity of Pretrib logic.

Yes, I have. Your argument is based on your presuppositions, which are centered on your version of amillennialism. Since your presuppositions are false, your argument is invalid.

Are you Pretrib? if not, what do you believe?

My beliefs don't fit into a label.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

While it is true that Christ was the first to be resurrected, that idea isn't the subject of Revelation 20 as I have shown. Your method of exegesis is faulty because it obscures what the passage is intended to say.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Neither Matt 24 or 25 say anything about him ruling over the nations. Its all about mourning in anticipation of judgment - Imo.

I quoted the passages verbatim.

I am of the opinion that Dan 7 is about the Son being presented to the Father after his victory on the cross.

Daniel portrays an event in the clouds, which is yet to occur. He also portrays the moment when Jesus receives dominion, honor, and a kingdom, which is also yet to occur.

Lets not go off topic.

Since WPM's argument rests on amillennialism then this post is on topic.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, you have failed miserably in what you came here to do then.

Yes, I have failed. Sometimes that's the point.

You have failed to convince anyone.

I never expect to convince anyone. And neither should you. That's my point.

You have no authority on a Christian forum intended for Christians which are people who believe that Jesus is God.

If you mean to say that I don't have a seminary degree or a doctorate in Biblical studies, then I am guilty as charged.
Nonetheless, we left authoritarianism behind. Those who read this board and forum are free to make up their own minds. Yes?

I am here to refute pretrib, not bring new things to the table. You are here to try to waste everyone's time.

We are wasting time together, I think. :)
But WPM wanted to talk about amillennialism, not to refute the Pretribulation doctrine.

I'm doing both. Ever heard of multitasking?

I've heard about pink elephants.

It exposes you for the fraud that you are.

If I freely admit my heresy, how am I a fraud? I think you need to rethink your conclusions.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that Jesus is God.

I agree. But it doesn't teach that Jesus is a deity.

It is a fundamental belief of Christianity.

I disagree. All we can say is that it is a fundamental tenet of Christianity. But since "belief" is what the mind delivers to us after we have become convinced through evidence or rational argument, then the doctrine of the deity of Christ can't be classified as a belief.

One might even classify the doctrine as antichrist. (1 John 4:2-3)

Do you believe that anyone but God should be worshiped?

We worship Jesus because he, as a man, represents God. (Hebrews 1:1-4)

Do you think anyone but God could have all power and authority in heaven and earth?

Yes, I believe Jesus' word, that he has been granted all power and authority from the Father.

I am attacking your beliefs and the fact that you are a false teacher trying to worm your way in on a Christian forum with your non-Christian beliefs.

You raised the issue of the deity of Christ in a thread concerned with discussing the pretribulation doctrine. This is meant to discredit whatever I might say about the subject at hand. This demonstrates your lack of confidence in your own beliefs about the subject. Not firm in your beliefs, you decide to attach me personally.

I have shared my understanding of scripture extensively on this forum and you know it.

Yes, I know. And you have shown me a few things and I appreciate that.

I am not diverting attention from anything. I am drawing attention to the fact that no one can trust anything you say.

Why do you feel that it is your responsibility to do that? Do you not trust others to draw their conclusions? Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to lead them?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, you have no thoughts at all on what I said about Revelation 20:6? A one way discussion is what you're looking for?

What did you say about it?

Tell me why the Greek word "zao" is used in reference to those who "lived" and reigned with Christ in verse 4, while the Greek word "anazao" is used in reference to those who "come to life" in verse 5?
Are you aware that the Greek word "zao" is not a word that means to come to life while the word "anazao" is?

Your information is incorrect. The Greek word in verses 4 and 5 is ἔζησαν -- translated "came to life." This spelling of the word represents the third person, plural, aorist, active, indicative of "zao" -- to live. The salient point in verses 4 and 5 is the idea that whether someone has died in the service of Christ or they remain alive after having refused the mark, both groups will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

We should also take note of another Greek word in verse 5, "Αὕτη", which is a relative pronoun referring back to the previous statements. John describes what is known elsewhere in Paul's writings as the rapture. The dead in Christ are raised from the dead and those who are still alive go together to meet the Lord in the air. That, John says, is the "first resurrection."

 

[CadyandZoe]

He rules over all nations now, but just not in the way you think He is supposed to do so.

No, he doesn't rule over all nations. I would think that the events we have seen over the past year would cause you to rethink that.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

While it is true that all authority has been given to Jesus, it is not true that he has begun to use that power to rule over the nations yet. Jesus doesn't begin to rule until he returns.

Daniel 7:13-14 refers to His ascension.

Daniel 7 describes the coming of the son of man, his being given an everlasting dominion, and "the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One."

Not only is Jesus not yet ruling over his dominion, but the saints of the highest one are not ruling over all the kingdoms under the whole heaven.

Notice the similarities in the following passages:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

These passages are very clearly referring to the same event, which was His ascension to the right hand of the Father (Ancient of Days) in heaven.

Agreed. Nonetheless, the idea originated in a Psalm of David where he wrote, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'" At the ascension of Jesus, according to Paul, Jesus rose to sit at the father's right hand. This is consistent with Jesus' assertion that God has given him all authority. Not only this, however, the Father promised Jesus that he would make his enemies a footstool for his feet.

This has yet to take place. We do not currently see his enemies in subjection to him.

 

[MA2444]

Your information is incorrect. The Greek word in verses 4 and 5 is ἔζησαν -- translated "came to life." This spelling of the word represents the third person, plural, aorist, active, indicative of "zao" -- to live. The salient point in verses 4 and 5 is the idea that whether someone has died in the service of Christ or they remain alive after having refused the mark, both groups will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

We should also take note of another Greek word in verse 5, "Αὕτη", which is a relative pronoun referring back to the previous statements. John describes what is known elsewhere in Paul's writings as the rapture. The dead in Christ are raised from the dead and those who are still alive go together to meet the Lord in the air. That, John says, is the "first resurrection."

I agree with you. I went and looked it up, and it's very clear.

Zao Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (KJV)

Discover the original meaning of Zao in the Bible using the New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version. Learn the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of Zao.

www.biblestudytools.com

That's what happens with some. They put a small twist on it and try to make it mean something else. There's a spiritual factor to being in Christ. Having had been Born Again spiritualy, then something happened in the spiritual realm that we did not get to witness, but it had it's effect. The person is...alive, in Christ.

Now during the Tribulation, if they take the mark of the beast, the enter death even if their flesh body still lives for the moment.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am here to challenge your assumptions. I see nothing wrong with that.

This is called hijacking the thread.

He is doing it to other threads also.
Belligerent and hateful.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead. In the passage below, please take a look at the two different mentions of people coming back to life and the fact that each occasion when a group of people comes back to life is separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life [second resurrection] until the thousand years were completed.​

​

Some of the dead came back to life in verse 4, the rest of humanity came back to life in verse 5.

The martyrs of Rev 20 were killed by the AC early on in the GT.
They are part of the first resurrection.
The main harvest ( pretrib rapture) has the first resurrection saints resurrected, and recieving glorified bodied.
First resurrection includes the aforementioned, Jesus, the patriarchs in paradise,and those martyrs mentioned in Rev 20.
Rev 20 DOES NOT mention the timing of those Rev 20 martyrs.

They are most likely raised from the dead and raptured early on in the Gt. .(Rev 20 is looking back at their resurrection)
They do attend the marriage supper in heaven,, and are in fact the innumerable number before the throne, early into the GT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree with you. I went and looked it up, and it's very clear.

Zao Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (KJV)

Discover the original meaning of Zao in the Bible using the New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version. Learn the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of Zao.

www.biblestudytools.com

That's what happens with some. They put a small twist on it and try to make it mean something else. There's a spiritual factor to being in Christ. Having had been Born Again spiritualy, then something happened in the spiritual realm that we did not get to witness, but it had it's effect. The person is...alive, in Christ.

Now during the Tribulation, if they take the mark of the beast, the enter death even if their flesh body still lives for the moment.

That "came to life" ,as you 2 concluded, is a bogus NIV translation.
It just says " they lived".
Hundreds of Bible students are led astray from what Rev 20 says.
All because they see, in their bogus Bibles, "came to life", making them think they have just been resurrected after God's wrath.
Totally bogus.

 

[MA2444]

That "came to life" ,as you 2 concluded, is a bogus NIV translation.
It just says " they lived".
Hundreds of Bible students are led astray from what Rev 20 says.
All because they see, in their bogus Bibles, "came to life", making them think they have just been resurrected after God's wrath.
Totally bogus.

I didnt say they came to life or agree with him. But if a person is born again, then is he not alive? Has he not entered life?

And from then on, he is alive. EVen if his flesh body would die, he does not die beacause he is alive. Dying prolly doesnt even hurt. It prolly feels good to get out of this flesh body. To die (in the flesh) is to gain. Besides, how many testimonies do we need to hear about when people were dying, they say stuff like, ohh, it's so beautiful, I'm not in pain any more, I'm going home...? So dying is the crossing over to the spiritual realm so is prolly more akin to being born rather than dying.

Those who are dead shall not live. We are spiritual beings and are on a Human Journey. You dont see that I was agreeing with you about that?

 

[rebuilder 454]

CadyandZoe said:
""Good points.
I think it's important to consider the case of Lazarus and others whom Jesus and the apostles brought back to life. These individuals were resurrected before Jesus, so why do passages such as Acts 26:23 say that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead? The distinction between Lazarus's resurrection and Jesus's is that Jesus was glorified, whereas Lazarus was not. Jesus was the first to experience glorification, which is a permanent transformation."""

Ok, you are close.
JESUS is the first resurrection
Jesus is also the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
Lazarus ,and others, were raised by Jesus to die once again.
Jesus is different.
Jesus RAISED HIMSELF,

 

[rebuilder 454]

I didnt say they came to life or agree with him. But if a person is born again, then is he not alive? Has he not entered life?

And from then on, he is alive. EVen if his flesh body would die, he does not die beacause he is alive. Dying prolly doesnt even hurt. It prolly feels good to get out of this flesh body. To die (in the flesh) is to gain. Besides, how many testimonies do we need to hear about when people were dying, they say stuff like, ohh, it's so beautiful, I'm not in pain any more, I'm going home...? So dying is the crossing over to the spiritual realm so is prolly more akin to being born rather than dying.

Those who are dead shall not live. We are spiritual beings and are on a Human Journey. You dont see that I was agreeing with you about that?

Yes.
I noticed you had seen it correctly. And I was agreeing with your assessment

 

[WPM]

Yes, it is. First of all, the deity of Christ is not relevant to this discussion. Second of all, you are attempting to discredit me, rather than defend your false teaching.

I don't care. Everyone here knows that I am a heretic. My view is Biblical, even if it isn't orthodox.
Even so, I respect the board rules and don't discuss the issue in this forum.

Yes, I have. Your argument is based on your presuppositions, which are centered on your version of amillennialism. Since your presuppositions are false, your argument is invalid.

My beliefs don't fit into a label.

More avoidance.

 

[WPM]

I believe that Jesus will reign and rule on this present earth for a thousand years following His Second Coming.

Zechariah 14 proves it.

More avoidance. This is the Pretrib MO. To address would force you to admit Amil is biblical.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture, the beginning of the day of the Lord, Jesus's second coming - are different events.

No, they are not. There is no scripture which teaches this. Jesus explicitly taught that the rapture will take place "immdiately after the tribulation of those days".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

normal daily activities - condition of the world for when the rapture takes place.

Please exegete the following passage where Jesus talks about things going on as normal before the day of His second coming.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

saying peace and safety - condition of the world for when the day of the Lord suddenly begins.

Paul described "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when the day of the Lord comes. When exactly do you believe that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will occur in relation to the second coming of Christ?

the world in great tribulation - condition of the world right before Jesus's Second Coming.

Describe that "great tribulation" for me and explain how Matthew 24:34-39 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 are not about Jesus's Second Coming.