The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-21, 27:1, and also identifies it with the time Satan is finally destroyed, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

Right and this has nothing to do with Daniel 12 which occurs at the great tribulation when MANY that sleep in the ground are raised.

Let us 1st establish what we are looking at in this overall passage. We are looking at one final future coming of Christ. We are looking at the resurrection of all. We are looking at the judgment of all - the elect and the unregenerate. The major difference between the two parties being: believers experience their eternal reward, the ungodly experience eternal punishment.

As we have seen in the various judgment passages we have already looked at, Christ is shown here to raise all men at His coming and exercise final and eternal judgment upon all. Isaiah commences this general resurrection discourse here by stating “dead men shall live,” the reason being, because “the earth shall cast out the dead” (speaking about the general resurrection of the dead). Regardless of how carefully The Beginner may try to rewrite this passage, there is no stipulation that we are looking at the righteous alone in the text - quite the opposite. We are looking at the raising of all the dead at Christ's coming. Isaiah testifies 1st of all of his own personal participation in that great final all-consummating event as a believer and as an Old Testament saint. He rejoices in anticipation of that day, as should every single believer that looks for resurrection / judgment day, declaring “Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs.” The reason for the believer’s joy is that they experience glorification as they discard mortality and take on immortality, and they receive God’s eternal reward on this great final day.

The unsaved are different, even though they will be raised at the same time on this day, it is for the purpose of judgment and eternal punishment. This is not a day of joy for them. This is not a day of reward. We learn: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.” When are the wicked punished? When “the LORD cometh out of his place” (of course talking about heaven). This is significantly the same time that that great enemy of the kingdom of God that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked are once and for all destroyed. The Hebrew word used here for slain is harag meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Does not explain Daniel 12 when MANY that sleep in the dust shall awake.

 

[The Light]

Do you ever dig deeper than the surface to try to determine what scripture is saying?

Yes.

The Hebrew word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 is raḇ and it does NOT mean "many, but not all". It simply refers to a large amount (a multitude, many), which may or may not refer to all of something.

Still waiting for you to prove your last statement on this that GREAT was used as a translation more than many. Where is your proof? Additionally if you do not know the difference between MANY and ALL I suggest addition schooling.

Here is an example of another verse where it is used:

Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (rab) days.

Is this verse talking about many, but not all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land of which there were many?

No. The question is did Abraham sojourn in the Philistines land MANY days or ALL his days.

So your argument holds no water. Do you have anything else on this? I'm still waiting on that proof that great was used as a translation for rab more times than many.

 

[Douggg]

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the one-year day of the Lord.

The vials of God's wrath could be poured out during the last one year within the great tribulation time frame of 1335 days. The day of the Lord is eternal, not just one year. The great tribulation is a beginning segment of it.

 

[jeffweeder]

oops

 

[The Light]

The 7th seal events take place beginning when the AoD statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. There will not be peace on earth at that time. This chart will take you right through the seven years, the seals, the trumpets, the woes,

It also shows the steps of the little horn becoming the Antichrist, then revealed as the man of sin, then becoming the beast.



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Think. Don't overthink. The 7th seal comes after the 6th seal. The seals are opened in order. Your logic is flawed.

 

[The Light]

The vials of God's wrath could be poured out during the last one year within the great tribulation time frame of 1335 days.

No sir. We can prove that the great tribulation is over at the sixth seal and then the 7th seal wrath of God begins.

The day of the Lord is eternal, not just one year.

You got a scripture on that?

The great tribulation is a beginning segment of it.



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You correct that the great tribulation begins when the AOD is set up and ends the day Jesus returns. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins. Jesus will then come after one year with the armies of heaven and Armageddon will occur.

 

[jeffweeder]

Nope already proven wrong. Daniel 12 when many that sleep in ground are raised happens after the great tribulation.
When all that sleep in the ground are raised in John 5 this occurs at the end of wrath.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the one-year day of the Lord.

You have just set a new world record for the number of times you have been wrong.

Job 14
10 But a man dies and lies prostrate.
A person passes away, and where is he?
11 As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,
12 So a man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens no longer exist,
He will not awake nor be woken from his sleep.

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

True

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

 

[Douggg]

The 7th seal comes after the 6th seal.

The events of the 7th seal don't follow the sixth seal event chronologically.

The 7th seal is opened in a later chapter than the sixth seal. But the trumpet plagues revealed when the 7th seal is opened are not after the sixth seal event.

 

[WPM]

Nope already proven wrong. Daniel 12 when many that sleep in ground are raised happens after the great tribulation.
When all that sleep in the ground are raised in John 5 this occurs at the end of wrath.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the one-year day of the Lord.

All you have is opinion. You are incapable of rebutting Amil posts or exegeting Scripture. To do would force you to become an Amil.

 

[WPM]

Right and this has nothing to do with Daniel 12 which occurs at the great tribulation when MANY that sleep in the ground are raised.


Does not explain Daniel 12 when MANY that sleep in the dust shall awake.

Daniel 12 (not surprisingly) agrees with NT Scripture and demolishes your thesis. You cannot go anywhere near recognizes the fact there is a general judgment in view here. Your fixation with "many" is a sidetrack from the indisputable reality of a future general resurrection when Jesus comes. This supports the Amil position.

 

[Douggg]

You got a scripture on that?

In 2Peter3:10 it is during the day of the Lord that this present earth is destroyed. In Revelation 20:11, that destruction is alluded to at the Great White Throne judgement - after which, follows eternity, of the new heaven, new earth of Revelation 21-22.


The day of the Lord is shown on my Anytime Rapture Timing chart. It begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist.

 

[WPM]

In 2Peter3:10 it is during the day of the Lord that this present earth is destroyed. In Revelation 20:11, that destruction is alluded to at the Great White Throne judgement - after which, follows eternity, of the new heaven, new earth of Revelation 21-22.


The day of the Lord is shown on my Anytime Rapture Timing chart. It begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist.


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How long is the day of the Lord in your opinion?

 

[The Light]

The 7th seal events take place beginning when the AoD statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount. There will not be peace on earth at that time.

The seventh seal happens after the 6th seal. It's as simple as that. Also, the rider on the white horse, the 1st seal, goes forth conquering and to conquer. Secondly peace is taken from the earth when the 2nd seal is opened. You cannot have the 7th seal wrath of God happening when the AOD is set up. The starts the great tribulaiton.

This chart will take you right through the seven years, the seals, the trumpets, the woes,

The 1st six seals happen in order. The seventh seal cannot take place during the 2nd seal because the 7th seal is not opened until AFTER the 6th seal is opened. Your logic is bad. This needs to be redone. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal 2nd coming. Then the 7th seal wrath of God begins.

It also shows the steps of the little horn becoming the Antichrist, then revealed as the man of sin, then becoming the beast.

The little horn is the beast of the sea. The man of sin is one of the two horns of the beast of the earth.

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[Douggg]

How long is the day of the Lord in your opinion?

Overall - eternity. But there are segments to it. The beginning years being the great tribulation time frame of 1335 days. Then the thousand years of Revelation 20 following Jesus's Second Coming. Then Satan's short season. Then the Great White Throne judgment. Then into eternity in Revelation 21-22:6, with the new heaven and new earth.

 

[The Light]

The events of the 7th seal don't follow the sixth seal event chronologically.

They absolutely do. Don't overthink this. The 7th seal cannot be opened until after the 6th seal is opened.

The 7th seal is opened in a later chapter than the sixth seal. But the trumpet plagues revealed when the 7th seal is opened are not after the sixth seal event.

The Great Tribulation is over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. They say peace and safety after the tribulation only to be cast into the Day of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Overall - eternity. But there are segments to it. The beginning years being the great tribulation time frame of 1335 days. Then the thousand years of Revelation 20 following Jesus's Second Coming. Then Satan's short season. Then the Great White Throne judgment. Then into eternity in Revelation 21-22:6, with the new heaven and new earth.

You've no proof of anything that you say here. You seem to make it up as you go along. The detail that is connected to the arrival of the day of the Lord is absolutely destructive. No one can possibly survive it. This totally destroys the theory of a future millennium after the second coming.

1. Do you believe that Christ is literally coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you believe that the wicked will literally experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you believe that the wicked literally "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” literally when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

 

[The Light]

Daniel 12 (not surprisingly) agrees with NT Scripture and demolishes your thesis. You cannot go anywhere near recognizes the fact there is a general judgment in view here. Your fixation with "many" is a sidetrack from the indisputable reality of a future general resurrection when Jesus comes. This supports the Amil position.

Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel shows that MANY that sleep in dust shall awake, WHEN THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL ARE DELIVERED. That happens at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It occurs before the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The people of Daniel are delivered when Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. They are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

None of your claims agree with the Word of God. There is no scripture that supports what you say.

 

[WPM]

Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel shows that MANY that sleep in dust shall awake, WHEN THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL ARE DELIVERED. That happens at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal.

Here is the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal. It occurs before the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The people of Daniel are delivered when Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. They are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

None of your claims agree with the Word of God. There is no scripture that supports what you say.

This all proves one final future coming of Christ that confirms a general resurrection and a general judgment. Thanks for showing us up.

 

[Douggg]

The 1st six seals happen in order. The seventh seal cannot take place during the 2nd seal because the 7th seal is not opened until AFTER the 6th seal is opened. Your logic is bad. This needs to be redone. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal 2nd coming. Then the 7th seal wrath of God begins.

Events revealed when the seals are opened. That is what you need to look at. Not seal numbers. Events.

The "tribulation of those days" is over when the events of the sixth seal takes place. The word "great" is intentionally left out in Matthew 24:29. Because the great tribulation is not fully over at the time the events of the sixth seal takes place. There is still one vial of God's wrath left, the 7th vial.


I will walk you through it.

The sign of the Son of Man takes place in the sixth seal event. Jesus, sickle in hand.

The kings of the earth are terrified.

Then in Revelation 16, the sixth vial, the kings of the earth are convinced to make war on Jesus. They begin gathering their armies at Armageddon in preparation.

God allows them 45 days. During the 45 days, Jesus sits in heaven on his throne, a white cloud at his feet, while the kings of the earth make ready.

Right before He descends to earth, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out on the world in Revelation 16:17-21.

Then Jesus descends to earth to destroy those armies gathered against him (Revelation 19:18-19). The beast and the false prophet are dealt with (Revelation 19:20) first. Then In Revelation 19:21, the armies are destroyed.

Then in Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison. Bringing the great tribulation to a close.

 

[The Light]

In 2Peter3:10 it is during the day of the Lord that this present earth is destroyed. In Revelation 20:11, that destruction is alluded to at the Great White Throne judgement - after which, follows eternity, of the new heaven, new earth of Revelation 21-22.

The Day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. The Day of the Lord is one-year long. What you point out occurs at the end of the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The day of the Lord is shown on my Anytime Rapture Timing chart. It begins with the ToD act by the Antichrist.

No. The Day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. This happens after the coming of Jesus for the harvest at the 6th seal.