The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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Douggg

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Death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus,
fulfilment of the 70 weeks and the way made clear for man to the most Holy place,
Holy Spirit infilling as a result and
Passing from death to life= First resurrection,
Holy Spirit infilling as a result and
Passing from death to life= First resurrection,
Gospel goes Global before the end through much tribulation.
The end being the second coming and Final judgment of the living and the dead.
NHNE,
AMEN.


Jeff, you are presenting the Amil narrative (instead of a chart) timeline, correct ?

starts at - "Death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, fulfilment of the 70 weeks and the way made clear for man to the most Holy place,"

(Douggg) I am assuming you mean that by Jesus's death and resurrection, man can go to heaven.

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"Holy Spirit infilling as a result"

(Douggg) I am assuming you mean - by the Holy Spirit infilling them, men (believers) are born again spiritually, redemption of their souls.

All of the above in the first century - correct ?

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"and Passing from death to life= First resurrection,"

(Douggg) I don't see a biblical basis for that statement. first resurrection ? Resurrection refers to the resurrection of one's body, i.e. redemption of one's body. The first resurrection in Revelation 20 is referring to the resurrection of martyred tribulation saints who didn't take the mark of the beast, nor worshiped the beast nor his image.

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"Gospel goes Global before the end through much tribulation."

(Douggg) okay, the gospel began to be spread in the first century.

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"The end being the second coming and Final judgment of the living and the dead."

(Douggg) The end of the timeline narrative of this present earth, correct ?

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"NHNE,"

(Douggg) eternity, correct ?

____________________________________________________________________________

(Douggg) where in that timeline narrative are these end times time frames and events, taking place ? These cannot be metaphoric, because they are specific in nature.


end times frames 1.jpg
 
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jeffweeder

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Jeff, you are presenting the Amil narrative (instead of a chart) timeline, correct ?

starts at - "Death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, fulfilment of the 70 weeks and the way made clear for man to the most Holy place,"

(Douggg) I am assuming you mean that by Jesus's death and resurrection, man can go to heaven.

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Thanks to full atonement being made (the 70 weeks) The most Holy place has been anointed.

Heb 10
18 Now where there is [absolute] forgiveness and complete cancellation of the penalty of these things, there is no longer any offering [to be made to atone] for sin.

19 Therefore, believers, since we have confidence and full freedom to enter the Holy Place [the place where God dwells] by [means of] the blood of Jesus, 20 by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great and wonderful Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, 22 let us approach [God] with a true and sincere heart in unqualified assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


"Holy Spirit infilling as a result"

(Douggg) I am assuming you mean - by the Holy Spirit infilling them, men (believers) are born again spiritually, redemption of their souls.

All of the above in the first century - correct ?

-----------------------------------------------
Of course. Without full atonement we couldn't be filled with the Holy Spirit. That must mean the 70th week is fulfilled.

Heb 10
18 Now where there is [absolute] forgiveness and complete cancellation of the penalty of these things, there is no longer any offering [to be made to atone] for sin.

Heb 9

28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.

Dan 9
24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
"and Passing from death to life= First resurrection,"

(Douggg) I don't see a biblical basis for that statement. first resurrection ?

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JN 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.


We do not come into Final judgment because of the first resurrection.

Rev 20
6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority

"Gospel goes Global before the end through much tribulation."

(Douggg) okay, the gospel began to be spread in the first century.

--------------------------------------------------
Yes,
This is the time for repentance for the whole world before the fixed day of judgment

Act 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

"The end being the second coming and Final judgment of the living and the dead."

(Douggg) The end of the timeline narrative of this present earth, correct ?

--------------------------------------------------
Yes.

11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away].

35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Happens at his coming right?
"NHNE,"

(Douggg) eternity, correct ?

____________________________________________________________________________
Yes
 
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rebuilder 454

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Translation: You have no interest in actually exegeting scripture and would rather just give a bunch of unsupported opinions and think that's enough to convince anyone that you have any idea of what you're talking about.
Pot <> kettle.
Name calling on every post.
SMH
 

rebuilder 454

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Maybe on one finger? Why do you suppose that you are so special that God would choose to only reveal the truth of end times scripture to you? Do you have any idea how that comes across?


I was off here last night and part of today and am getting caught up. Up to that particular point you had done nothing of substance to support your view. A couple references to scripture here and there without explaining exactly how they support your view was all I was seeing from you.


No one has said this. There are obviously post-trib premils as well and we have not said otherwise in any way, shape or form. But, it's interesting that you are claiming to be post-trib, yet here you are debating post-trib amils instead of debating pretribs in a thread that was purposely made to refute pretrib. That's very strange. And is also why I thought you were pretrib as well. Although you do have something in common with them in that you believe in 2 future comings of Christ like they do.
Show us only one coming in mat 24.
I will wait.
Show us how the gathering before the flood is the gathering to the white horses in heaven.
Get real creative.
 

rebuilder 454

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Wow! So, opposing Pretrib is now having a "Carnal Mind"? Obviously Pretrib is bereft of any rebuttals to the Op. I will take your petty name-calling as a sign of surrender from the your camp.

Who said that we are going to suffer wrath? Where is your evidence? Where are your quotes? You have nothing. All you have is your own false claims.
A carnal mind thinks the gathering before the flood has Jesus depicting half of a group taken is actually Jesus mistaken about it
 
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rebuilder 454

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LOL. I'm not doing that. I think you're the only one here who can't remember what people believe, so I'm not going to do something just to appease you. The things I say make it quite clear what I believe if you actually paid attention, so there is no need for me to periodically announce that I'm Amil.
Yeah, keep everyone confoosed
I had no idea you were amil.
No wonder your eschatology is off.
 

rebuilder 454

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N
Oh, yes it is. I'm certainly not going to base it on how you see it. Your future tribulation is completely imaginary because the 70th week is already fulfilled.


Yes, and that is sad. Those are all Premil views. Did you know there's more views than just Premil views, Douggg? Were you aware of that?


LOL. Keep the laughs coming, Douggg.


Pre-trib believes He is coming pre-trib even by how I understand the tribulation, so I don't need to redefine it.


Oh, really? You don't think pre-tribs try to say that Jesus will come BEFORE the falling away and the man of sin is revealed instead of AFTER as Paul taught in 2 Thess 2:1-3?


Yes, we can and we are. Your delusions of grandeur don't impress me, Douggg. You have a false sense of authority in thinking you can tell everyone else what they believe. You are so ridiculously arrogant! Humble yourself already, Douggg!


I am post-trib. And Amil.
NO AC in power.
No mark of the beast in everyone's forehead.

Nope.
You have zero traction.
 

rebuilder 454

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That is an outright lie. I'm talking about actual exegesis of scripture. Do you know what exegesis is? If not, do yourself a favor and learn what it is and start actually doing it if you want to be taken seriously.


Of course not. When have I said otherwise? So much time is wasted here on straw man arguments. Address what I believe instead of what your straw man believes, please.


It is not my position at all. I challenge you to find anything I've said at any time which would suggest that I believe any Christian will ever experience God's wrath. Good luck with that.


I have addressed it MANY times. What do you want? I believe that God is quite capable of protecting us while we are on the earth and the only time when taking us off the earth will be necessary is when His wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Jesus returns, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Okay? Do you understand my view now?


You would know all about having a carnal mind. You seem to be an expert on that, at least when it comes to your carnal approach to end times doctrine.
Once in a while you do actually invoke the word.
Incorrectly, but shoving it trough the amil meat grinder, and just mainly here to have a soapbox against the ones you detest and hate.
Namely the body of Christ that disagrees with you and owns you with correct exegesis.
So bitter,you are.
But I know it is frustrating getting corrected by us.
 

rebuilder 454

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Thanks for saying what everyone else already knows, Doug. You need to get caught up on what others believe if you want to have intelligent debates with people. Misrepresenting what people believe because of ignorance doesn't do much for your credibility.
I also didn't know.
So put me in your put down game also
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You are making my point. Amil does not have a timeline of end times events according to the timeframes given in the bible.
Doug, your lies continue. You have no conscience. Seeing a time reference as symbolic doesn't mean we don't believe it's referring to an actual period of time. For example, we don't try to say the thousand years is a fictional period of time. No, we see it as symbolically representing the time before the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ (Satan's little season follows it just before Christ returns).

7
Are you going to put all of these as "symbolic" ?
I believe all of the time periods in Revelation are symbolic. I agree with everyone else that each the 70 weeks of Daniel represent 7 years.

My next question is do you as Amil expect Jesus at His Second Coming to be physically present of this ever earth again ? What does Second Coming mean to you ?
He will be present on the renewed earth (new earth) for eternity after He comes. His second coming, specifically, is not a second coming to this earth as we know it. It was said that He would descend from heaven again (second coming from heaven) and He would do so in the same manner that He ascended there (visibly and bodily), as described in Acts 1:9-11. You can't find anywhere in the NT that describes Him coming to this earth again as we know it. Why would that be the case if that was actually going to happen? Do think that the NT authors somehow missed that detail?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Once in a while you do actually invoke the word.
LOL. I do far more often than you do and I actually exegete it to show exactly how I interpret it and why. Something you NEVER do.

Incorrectly, but shoving it trough the amil meat grinder, and just mainly here to have a soapbox against the ones you detest and hate.
Namely the body of Christ that disagrees with you and owns you with correct exegesis.
So bitter,you are.
But I know it is frustrating getting corrected by us.
Do you plan to ever attempt to exegete any scripture? You can't be expected to be taken seriously otherwise. You are very delusional if you think you have corrected anyone about anything. You only share your own words, which mean NOTHING apart from scriptural support.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I also didn't know.
So put me in your put down game also
So, think about this. You tell us that our doctrine is wrong when you don't even know what we believe. Do you know how ridiculous that is? It's like you trying to correct an astronaut by telling him or her how to navigate a spaceship when you don't even know anything about it. Such nonsense. Why don't you take the time to actually learn what we believe before you decide it's not true?
 

rebuilder 454

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LOL. I do far more often than you do and I actually exegete it to show exactly how I interpret it and why. Something you NEVER do.


Do you plan to ever attempt to exegete any scripture? You can't be expected to be taken seriously otherwise. You are very delusional if you think you have corrected anyone about anything. You only share your own words, which mean NOTHING apart from scriptural support.
Your nastiness destroys debate and just sends all your deal into ghettoland.
You ever stand like a man and debate???
Get over the ghetto mode.
You realize nobody takes a trash talker seriously????
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It is amazing how nasty they are.
...and then cry to mama if anyone pushes back.
LOL. This is rich coming from you. Who always starts making things personal? The pretribs. Every time. We try to get you to engage scripture and exegete it and you respond with insults. That's the never ending cycle we see on this forum. You are afraid to exegete scripture, so you resort to making wild claims with no scriptural support and you resort to insults to try to distract attention away from the fact that you have no scriptural support for your claims.
 
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rebuilder 454

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So, think about this. You tell us that our doctrine is wrong when you don't even know what we believe. Do you know how ridiculous that is? It's like you trying to correct an astronaut by telling them how to navigate a spaceship when you don't even know anything about it. Such nonsense. Why don't you take the time to actually learn what we believe before you decide it's not true?
No.
I now know the basisis of your erroneous deal.
Will await your next trashy response, and commanding everyone to follow your directions, after we sift through your juvenile put downs.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Your nastiness destroys debate and just sends all your deal into ghettoland.
You ever stand like a man and debate???
Are you kidding me? When do you plan on ever actually debating? Debating involves exegeting scripture so that people can be clear about how and why you believe what you do. You NEVER do that. How about you start now?

Get over the ghetto mode.
You realize nobody takes a trash talker seriously????
You are a complete hypocrite. All you do here is talk trash and you've never exegeted even one word of scripture so far. Is it too much to ask you to do that?
 

rebuilder 454

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LOL. This is rich coming from you. Who always starts making things personal? The pretribs. Every time. We try to get you to engage scripture and exegete it and you respond with insults. That's the never ending cycle we see on this forum. You are afraid to exegete scripture, so you resort to making wild claims with no scriptural support and you resort to insults to try to distract attention away from the fact that you have no scriptural support for your claims.
Like I said.
When you get push back ,you go to default trigger mode and show us your ghetto talk.
.. as you demonstrate over and over.
 

rebuilder 454

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Are you kidding me? When do you plan on ever actually debating? Debating involves exegeting scripture so that people can be clear about how and why you believe what you do. You NEVER do that. How about you start now?


You are a complete hypocrite. All you do here is talk trash and you've never exegeted even one word of scripture so far. Is it too much to ask you to do that?
Enough said.
Every post of yours is now trashy ghetto juvenile nothing-ness.
As you demonstrate manfully..
 

rebuilder 454

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Are you kidding me? When do you plan on ever actually debating? Debating involves exegeting scripture so that people can be clear about how and why you believe what you do. You NEVER do that. How about you start now?


You are a complete hypocrite. All you do here is talk trash and you've never exegeted even one word of scripture so far. Is it too much to ask you to do that?
I think you need a break, before you completely get undone.
Whew.
 
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