The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you know what would be a big help to other posters in the thread (and forum) that both you and @WPM could do ?

Is that every once in a while, in your posts, you open with.... "As a reminder, I am Amil".

LOL. I'm not doing that. I think you're the only one here who can't remember what people believe, so I'm not going to do something just to appease you. The things I say make it quite clear what I believe if you actually paid attention, so there is no need for me to periodically announce that I'm Amil.

 

[Douggg]

The Amil rapture timing view is.... "at Jesus's Second Coming" .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Amil rapture timing view is.... "at Jesus's Second Coming" .

Thanks for saying what everyone else already knows, Doug. You need to get caught up on what others believe if you want to have intelligent debates with people. Misrepresenting what people believe because of ignorance doesn't do much for your credibility.

 

[Keraz]

I finally decided to just let God show me what scripture teaches without making any assumptions and without ever trying to make it say what I want it to say.

Then how come you believe we are in the Millennium now? Despite plenty of scripture proving Satan is still able to deceive and Jesus is not yet here and reigning over the earth?
But the false idea of a rapture removal; pre , mid, post or -stupidly; anytime, is what we fight against. The 'rapture to heaven' theory IS a Satanic lie, which has deceived many.

It will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up. 1 Cor 3:11-15
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly shows: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

Any ideas of a rapture removal to heaven, is wrong and impossible. We are told; three times, that we must endure until the end and those who - Call upon His name, will be protected thru it all.

 

[Douggg]

Thanks for saying what everyone else already knows, Doug. You need to get caught up on what others believe if you want to have intelligent debates with people. Misrepresenting what people believe because of ignorance doesn't do much for your credibility.

The problem is that Amil does not present their view as "at Jesus's Second Coming", but as being post-trib - which is a false representation.

If a person is Amil, then they can't be post-trib, i.e post- 7 year 70th week, since Amil does not believe that the 7 year 70th week is forthcoming.

 

[Douggg]

Then how come you believe we are in the Millennium now? Despite plenty of scripture proving Satan is still able to deceive and Jesus is not yet here and reigning over the earth?
But the false idea of a rapture removal; pre , mid, post or -stupidly; anytime, is what we fight against. The 'rapture to heaven' theory IS a Satanic lie, which has deceived many.

It will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up. 1 Cor 3:11-15
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly shows: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

Any ideas of a rapture removal to heaven, is wrong and impossible. We are told; three times, that we must endure until the end and those who - Call upon His name, will be protected thru it all.

keras, go here and add your name to the list.

Amil, Premil, poster list

I am starting this thread for everyone's benefit. Please add your name to list of what you are - whether, Amil or Premil. Copy and paste the list from the previous post, so that the list grows as each person adds their name. Premil @Douggg @MA2444 @th1b.taylor @ewq1938 @rebuilder 454 Amil...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then how come you believe we are in the Millennium now?

After all this time have you never seen my explanations for why I believe what I do? Or is your memory getting bad like Douggg's?

Despite plenty of scripture proving Satan is still able to deceive and Jesus is not yet here and reigning over the earth?

Your understanding of what it means for Jesus to reign is faulty. Scripture explicitly teaches that He has been reigning over all things in heaven and on earth since His resurrection and ascension.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

For Jesus to reign over the earth does not require Him to literally control everything that is happening or anything like that. He is "the head over all things to the church" and nothing can happen without His permission. There isn't anyone or anything in the world He doesn't have authority over right now.

But the false idea of a rapture removal; pre , mid, post or -stupidly; anytime, is what we fight against. The 'rapture to heaven' theory IS a Satanic lie, which has deceived many.

That's what we're refuting in this thread, yes. Pre-trib or anything like it.

It will be those whose beliefs necessitate a change of policy for God, who will be found in error and their 'works' burned up. 1 Cor 3:11-15
I the Lord do not change - Malachi 3:7 Numbers 23:10, Hebrews 13:6
God allowed His faithful Christian people to be martyred and as Revelation 20:4 plainly shows: that policy continues until Jesus Returns.

Right. There's no reason to think that Christians won't be persecuted right up until Jesus returns just as has been the case from the beginning.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Any ideas of a rapture removal to heaven, is wrong and impossible. We are told; three times, that we must endure until the end and those who - Call upon His name, will be protected thru it all.

Absolutely. Glad we can agree on this, at least.

 

[The Light]

No, he was not as you've been shown. Still believe that people stopped eating and drinking 6 days before the flood came? LOL!

Showing me something that disagrees with the Word of God is not really showing me something.

If it's in the Word of God, I'm going to believe it. Laugh all you want.

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

No, there clearly are not. Such ridiculous and unsupportable claims are not worth my time.

Its fully supportable with scripture.............as you have been shown.

It's unfortunate that you have decided to remove many verses from your Bible. It must be all torn up.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You might need to understand that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours. There are 7 trumpets of wrath. They do not happen in 24 hours

Revelation 9
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Go to your teachers and tell them they should stop teaching, as very little of what you post agrees with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem is that Amil does not present their view as "at Jesus's Second Coming", but as being post-trib - which is a false representation.

Doug, I honestly can't make sense of half of what you say. What are you talking about? He does come post-trib according to OUR understanding of the tribulation. Why can't you understand something so simple like this?

If a person is Amil, then they can't be post-trib, i.e post- 7 year 70th week, since Amil does not believe that the 7 year 70th week is forthcoming.

Why do we have to define the tribulation the way you do? Imagine us demanding that you define the tribulation the way we do. It's insane! You're not even thinking, Doug. Your perspective is so narrow. I see the tribulation as being spiritual tribulation involving increased persecution, increased deception, increased apostasy and increased wickedness. So, I see Jesus returning after the spiritual tribulation of those days described in Matthew 24:23-26.

 

[WPM]

Zechariah 14:4-5, Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half (proof that it has not happened yet) accompanied by all His saints (verse 5)

Zechariah 14:2, all nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle.

The length of the great tribulation, which begins with the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-21), is 1335 days. Daniel 12:11-12. 1290 days from the abomination of desolation setup, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven. Matthew 24:29-30a. Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.

MORE AVOIDANCE. Your doctrine is messed up.

 

[Douggg]

MORE AVOIDANCE. Your doctrine is messed up.

So you don't believe that the Mt of Olives will be split in half ?

 

[Keraz]

Your understanding of what it means for Jesus to reign is faulty. Scripture explicitly teaches that He has been reigning over all things in heaven and on earth since His resurrection and ascension.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus receive all Power then, but He has yet to take it up. That is very plain from history and todays ungodly civilization.
AMill is a denial of reality and a rejection of plainly stated scripture. Revelation 20 is the main example.

Re the false rapture theory; will any of those who believe it address the fact that God does not change?

 

[WPM]

So you don't believe that the Mt of Olives will be split in half ?

This is symbolically speaking about the First Advent where the Gospel went out to noth the Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

MORE AVOIDANCE. Your doctrine is messed up.

The fact that he didn't actually answer your questions at all says it all about his doctrine. He couldn't even bring himself to answer "Nowhere" to all 3 of your questions. Your questions were specifically about 1 Thess 4 and 5 and he didn't even reference anything from 1 Thess 4 and 5 in his response. That just says it all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus receive all Power then, but He has yet to take it up.

Nonsense. Again, your understanding of his power and authority is flawed. Thinking that it means He has to be like a dictator is a complete misunderstanding of His reign as scripture describes it.

That is very plain from history and todays ungodly civilization.

It's very plain that you do not understand what scripture teaches about His reign. I gave you explicit scripture and you have decided to just ignore it. That's on you. You're being foolish about this. He is King of kings and Lord of lords! It's very sad that you don't know who He is right NOW! How much more power and authority can He ever have right now when He has ALL power and authority in heaven and earth above all things and every name that is named!

AMill is a denial of reality and a rejection of plainly stated scripture. Revelation 20 is the main example.

Nonsense. You are completely incapable of refuting Amil as you have proven time and time again for years.

 

[The Light]

The Amil rapture timing view is.... "at Jesus's Second Coming" .

They think it is. However, the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They all return to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

After the marriage supper, Jesus returns to earth with the armies of heaven.

 

[WPM]

I will STAND UP for Gods Word…and denounce false accusations.

Why all the ad hominem?

 

[Douggg]

Doug, I honestly can't make sense of half of what you say. What are you talking about? He does come post-trib according to OUR understanding of the tribulation. Why can't you understand something so simple like this?


Why do we have to define the tribulation the way you do? Imagine us demanding that you define the tribulation the way we do. It's insane! You're not even thinking, Doug. Your perspective is so narrow. I see the tribulation as being spiritual tribulation involving increased persecution, increased deception, increased apostasy and increased wickedness. So, I see Jesus returning after the spiritual tribulation of those days described in Matthew 24:23-26.

It is not how you see the tribulation as what defines the post-trib view.

The pre-trib view, the mid-trib view, the post-trib view, are all based on the "trib" being the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

If you try to redefine post-trib, then you are going to have to redefine pre-trib in by the same measure. It doesn't work. No pre-trib adherent would ever agree to it.

If a person is Amil, then they cannot be pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. none of those.

You are Amil rapture timing view - the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

 

[Douggg]

However, the second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

The 6th seal event - precedes Jesus's Second Coming, his descent down to earth to stand on the Mt of Olives, by 45 days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you don't believe that the Mt of Olives will be split in half ?

Doug, how could we believe something like that will happen in the future when Peter taught that the Mount of Olives as well as the rest of the earth will be burned up and renewed when Jesus returns, resulting in the new earth?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can we trust that Peter understood Zechariah 14 better than any of us do? I believe so. He clearly didn't interpret it the way you do.

What are you looking for in accordance with the promise of His second coming, Douggg? Apparently, for Him to literally split the Mount of Olives in two? I'm looking for what Peter said we are looking for, which is "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness".