The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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Spiritual Israelite

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Please go here...

Doug, I'm concerned that you might be developing dementia or something. I have both told you that I am Amil and said things to you to clearly indicate that I'm amil many times. And you still somehow didn't know I'm amil? That's a bit concerning.
 

WPM

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Every “anti-pre-trib” thread has had a plethora of supportive Scripture…

Fact is no-one can read it for you, study it for you, understand it for you.

You think the Lamb of God, God WANTS those who have surrendered their Life to the Lord God TO Suffer Wrath God fully INTENDS to send down to all the inhabitants of the Earth….?? Certainly appears that is your position…which completely is in opposition of what God has planned for those IN Christ.

How do you address that? You haven’t, nor has other anti-pretribers, whose mission has repeatedly been mindful opinionated attacks, demands and gaslighting.

Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!

Pity on you.

Wow! So, opposing Pretrib is now having a "Carnal Mind"? Obviously Pretrib is bereft of any rebuttals to the Op. I will take your petty name-calling as a sign of surrender from the your camp.

Who said that we are going to suffer wrath? Where is your evidence? Where are your quotes? You have nothing. All you have is your own false claims.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Every “anti-pre-trib” thread has had a plethora of supportive Scripture…
That is an outright lie. I'm talking about actual exegesis of scripture. Do you know what exegesis is? If not, do yourself a favor and learn what it is and start actually doing it if you want to be taken seriously.

You think the Lamb of God, God WANTS those who have surrendered their Life to the Lord God TO Suffer Wrath God fully INTENDS to send down to all the inhabitants of the Earth….??
Of course not. When have I said otherwise? So much time is wasted here on straw man arguments. Address what I believe instead of what your straw man believes, please.

Certainly appears that is your position…which completely is in opposition of what God has planned for those IN Christ.
It is not my position at all. I challenge you to find anything I've said at any time which would suggest that I believe any Christian will ever experience God's wrath. Good luck with that.

How do you address that? You haven’t, nor has other anti-pretribers, whose mission has repeatedly been mindful opinionated attacks, demands and gaslighting.
I have addressed it MANY times. What do you want? I believe that God is quite capable of protecting us while we are on the earth and the only time when taking us off the earth will be necessary is when His wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Jesus returns, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Okay? Do you understand my view now?

Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!
You would know all about having a carnal mind. You seem to be an expert on that, at least when it comes to your carnal approach to end times doctrine.
 
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The Light

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What is your excuse for your ignorance? This is a serious question. Are you too lazy to consult Hebrew and Greek resources for further understanding of scripture?
*Yawn* I don't need an excuse to be correct.
The English word "many" there is translated from the Hebrew word "raḇ".
Exactly
Most often the word is translated as "great", like in the following verse:
Let's see your scriptural proof of this statement.

But, sometimes the word is used in reference to indicate a large but indefinite number.

Daniel 12:2 is an example of that and here is another example:

Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (Hebrew: rab) days.

In your view where you give almost no thought to what Daniel 12:2 is really saying, you assume that it's referring to many, but not all of the dead being resurrected at that time. But, the Hebrew word does not mean "many, but not all".
If you are saying MANY OF THEM, you not saying all of them. It's simple. No need to continue making things up.

Here is another example in case you are somehow missing my point.

Genesis 37:34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for his son many (rab) days.
This verse relates to when Jacob thought that his son Joseph had died, so he was mourning his (supposed) death for "many days". Is that talking about only some, but not all of the days that Jacob mourned Joseph's supposed death or is it referring to all of the days that he mourned? All of them, right? So, can you see how your understanding of the word "many" is flawed?

This proves my point. If Jacob mourned for his son many days, he does not mourn his son ALL of his days. Simple

This verse relates to when Jacob thought that his son Joseph had died, so he was mourning his (supposed) death for "many days". Is that talking about only some, but not all of the days that Jacob mourned Joseph's supposed death or is it referring to all of the days that he mourned? All of them, right? So, can you see how your understanding of the word "many" is flawed?
No. All I see is that your understanding is flawed.

And here is one more example to support my point:

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many (rab), and ye make them rest from their burdens.

This is Pharaoah describing the Hebrew slaves and saying that they "now are many". Was he only referring to some of the Hebrew slaves there or all of them? All of them, right? So, once again the word was used in a different way than you think it is used in Daniel 12:2.
It's a simple statement. It's like saying the crickets in my yard are many. Maybe I need to spray.

I'll give one last example just in case my point hasn't sunk in yet:

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude (rab) went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Again, the word isn't used to refer to many, but not all of something here. It's referring to all the people who were going somewhere with their animals. The number of all the people was a multitude.

Do you not care whether or not your interpretation of one verse like Daniel 12:2 contradicts other verses in scripture?
I don't see any problem. It's looks pretty simple.

You seem to find a need to attempt to create a problem because the scripture does not agree with your doctrine.

Why would we not think that the following passages are speaking of the same event:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

James 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I told you already. The reason that many that sleep in the dust are raised is because they either accepted or rejected Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God.

You ought to be able to figure it out from there.

What do you think, that there will be two events in the future when both saved and lost people are resurrected? That's complete nonsense and can't be supported by any other scripture. Do you not care about that?

Daniel 12............many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.

John 5............ the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Instead of disagreeing with the scripture you might want to figure out why they don't seem to agree.

Hint. Daniel 12 happens before John 5.

We should also consider the fact that Paul indicated that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23), so there is no reason to think that believers will be resurrected at two or more different times. What Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 tell us is that the lost will all be resurrected at generally the same time as all of those who are saved.
I am unaware that Paul said that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time.
You got chapter and verse on that?

The dead in Christ are raised first. It goes in order, first fruits and then they that are Christ at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ will come for His Church in an hour that you think not. The dead in Christ rise first. Then the Lord returns for the alive that remained.

Then................don't be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel has its blindness removed.

The we start over. FIRST FRUITS.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then they that are Christs at His coming.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 

Taken

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If you have nothing of any profit or our unable to address the Op can you please excuse yourself from this thread? Name calling is no welcome.

This is an open forum.
Will be pleased when others refrain from gaslighting.
 

Taken

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Let me make something clear. I do believe you are a child of God. I just happen to think you are a spiritually childish one. A "babe in Christ" as Paul talked about (1 Corinthians 3:1-3). At least as it comes to end times doctrine. Maybe you have a better understanding of other parts of scripture, I don't know. But, end times doctrine? Not so much.

I know my standing and know why my standing is such that it is. Your thinking and personal digs do not affect my standing.
 
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Douggg

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You are clearly avoiding.
  1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
  2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
  3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?
Zechariah 14:4-5, Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half (proof that it has not happened yet) accompanied by all His saints (verse 5)

Zechariah 14:2, all nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle.

The length of the great tribulation, which begins with the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-21), is 1335 days. Daniel 12:11-12. 1290 days from the abomination of desolation setup, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven. Matthew 24:29-30a. Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.
 

The Light

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Exactly. They have no problem with comparing the days before the flood and the days before the fire came down on Sodom to the days before Jesus comes, but somehow they miss that Jesus also compared the day of His second coming to the day when "the flood came and destroyed them all" and the day that Lot went out of Sodom and the fire came down "and destroyed them all".
And yet Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood. But very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came.

There are two raptures. Simple.
But, somehow, they conveniently ignore that Jesus was obviously implying that the wrath that will come down at His second coming will "destroy them all"
You should learn your Bible.

All are not destroyed at the second coming. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The day that that sudden destruction comes is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the day of His wrath. The Day of the Lord lasts one year.

as well in terms of all of His enemies on that day. With all believers being changed to immortality, that leaves no mortals left on the earth to populate an imaginary earthly millennial kingdom. But, Premils stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what Jesus so clearly taught.
How is it that you missed this? It seems there are mortals left on earth. Maybe it's time to change your doctrine.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Seems you are in error again.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Zechariah 14:4-5, Jesus returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half (proof that it has not happened yet) accompanied by all His saints (verse 5)

Zechariah 14:2, all nations will gather against Jerusalem to battle.

The length of the great tribulation, which begins with the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-21), is 1335 days. Daniel 12:11-12. 1290 days from the abomination of desolation setup, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven. Matthew 24:29-30a. Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.
Did you miss the questions? He asked you to show where your understanding of these things is indicated anywhere in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. So, can you answer those questions, please? If you think these things you're describing here are not alluded to at all in any way in 1 Thess 4 and 5, then just say so. You need to start being more honest, Doug.

Or do you think that Paul somehow was not aware of everything that is supposed to happen in relation to the second coming of Christ despite him writing extensively about it? I've amazingly come across a few people like that recently on this forum and it just boggles my mind. Please tell me you're not like them in that they think Paul was a bit lacking in knowledge when it comes to Bible prophecy.
 

Douggg

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Did you miss the questions? He asked you to show where your understanding of these things is indicated anywhere in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. So, can you answer those questions, please?
I addressed the content of the questions, and where it is found in the bible.
 

Taken

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I believe that God is quite capable of protecting us while we are on the earth and the only time when taking us off the earth will be necessary is when His wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Jesus returns, as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Okay? Do you understand my view now?

Tribulations and Wrath FROM Heaven UPON the all the living “inhabitants” upon the face of the Earth is a 7 year period of time.

Absolutely God protects Christians those IN Christ…
The same way God protected Noah and his family…raising them UP off the Face of the Earth…BeFORE the Earth is Destroyed…!!

You would know all about having a carnal mind. You seem to be an expert on that at least when it comes to your carnal approach to end times doctrine.

Your own merit is faulty. You are what you accuse. Gaslighter.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I know my standing and know why my standing is such that it is. Your thinking and personal digs do not affect my standing.
How about giving us some actual exegesis of scripture where you clearly and coherently present an argument in favor of your view? Are you able to do that? It seems that you're not, but please do so if you can.
 

Taken

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No one is welcome to gaslight, name-call or derail this thread, or any other. You are guilty of all of the above. You should know better.

I will STAND UP for Gods Word…and denounce false accusations.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I addressed the content of the questions, and where it is found in the bible.
So, I will take this as an acknowledgement from you that those things you mentioned in your post are not referenced in 1 Thess 4 and 5 at all. Why would Paul, who understood Bible prophecy as well as anyone, not have even referenced a time of tribulation between a supposed pre-trib or anytime rapture and the wrath of Christ if such a thing was going to occur?
 

Taken

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How about giving us some actual exegesis of scripture where you clearly and coherently present an argument in favor of your view? Are you able to do that? It seems that you're not, but please do so if you can.

I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you. It is a STUDY, and multiple times Views backed with Scripture have been given…
Go review for yourself…and address the Scriptures you disagree with.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Tribulations and Wrath FROM Heaven UPON the all the living “inhabitants” upon the face of the Earth is a 7 year period of time.
No, it is not. Not even close. That would be like saying the following takes 7 years to occur:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Absolutely God protects Christians those IN Christ…
The same way God protected Noah and his family…raising them UP off the Face of the Earth…BeFORE the Earth is Destroyed…!!
Do you imagine I have said otherwise? You know I have not. Why do you think it will take God 7 years to destroy the earth when it took Him only 6 days to create the heavens and the earth? You are severely underestimating what God is capable of, apparently. Scripture says he will destroy the earth by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12). How long do you suppose it took Him to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah by fire? 7 years? No. Probably more like 7 seconds, if that.

Your own merit is faulty. You are what you accuse. Gaslighter.
You are completely unable to back up any of your claims, so no one can take you seriously. That is very obvious.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you. It is a STUDY, and multiple times Views backed with Scripture have been given…
Go review for yourself…and address the Scriptures you disagree with.
I, of course, have addressed what I disagree with you about many times. You have no idea what it means to truly study scripture objectively without doctrinal bias and in context. I do. That's why I was once premil for a number of years and then became amil because I finally decided to just let God show me what scripture teaches without making any assumptions and without ever trying to make it say what I want it to say.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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And yet Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood. But very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came.
No, he was not as you've been shown. Still believe that people stopped eating and drinking 6 days before the flood came? LOL!

There are two raptures. Simple.
No, there clearly are not. Such ridiculous and unsupportable claims are not worth my time.

All are not destroyed at the second coming.
It's unfortunate that you have decided to remove many verses from your Bible. It must be all torn up.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 

Douggg

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How about giving us some actual exegesis of scripture where you clearly and coherently present an argument in favor of your view? Are you able to do that? It seems that you're not, but please do so if you can.
Do you know what would be a big help to other posters in the thread (and forum) that both you and @WPM could do ?

Is that every once in a while, in your posts, you open with.... "As a reminder, I am Amil".
 
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