The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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Spiritual Israelite

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I can count on one hand the number of people who share my view of the end times. :)
Maybe on one finger? Why do you suppose that you are so special that God would choose to only reveal the truth of end times scripture to you? Do you have any idea how that comes across?

I need help understanding your complaint since I have begun interacting directly with WPM's posts and providing scriptures to support my view.
I was off here last night and part of today and am getting caught up. Up to that particular point you had done nothing of substance to support your view. A couple references to scripture here and there without explaining exactly how they support your view was all I was seeing from you.

If I were to characterize his argument it boils down to this. One must affirm the Amill understanding of various verses in order to be post-trib. I don't think this is true and I don't think it is helpful to take that approach.
No one has said this. There are obviously post-trib premils as well and we have not said otherwise in any way, shape or form. But, it's interesting that you are claiming to be post-trib, yet here you are debating post-trib amils instead of debating pretribs in a thread that was purposely made to refute pretrib. That's very strange. And is also why I thought you were pretrib as well. Although you do have something in common with them in that you believe in 2 future comings of Christ like they do.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Gaslighter.
Not at all. I just point out the truth which is that you and your fellow pretribs are incapable of exegeting scripture which is why you never do so. You know you can't. When you actually examine scripture closely and in context, it's obvious that it comes nowhere near teaching pretrib.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Exactly. That is what we have to deal with on here.
Just watch out for that unexpected and sudden emotional destruction that is coming like a thief in the night. We don't want to be caught completely off guard and be among those who don't escape it. Like Peter said in 2nd Peter 3, there will be emotional fire coming down on the entire earth at that point. LOL.
 
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Douggg

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When Pretribbers try to speak on behalf of Posttribs they tend to misrepresent. We can speak ably for ourselves: we definitely do not need you to twist what we believe. Stop talking on our behalf.
I am not pre-trib rapture timing view, but anytime rapture timing view. You are not post-trib rapture timing view as you claim, but Amil rapture timing view. The Amil rapture timing view adherents do not incorporate any of the end times time frames found in the bible. Post-trib timing view adherents do.

Since you are Amil. Why don't you put forth what the Amil rapture timing view is - in your post, instead of confusing it with the widely known and widely defined post-trib rapture timing view. I am saying this as a positive suggestion, so others can understand what Amils believe.

There is the....

Amil rapture timing view - ??????????

pre-trib rapture timing view - before the 7 year 70th week begins.

post-trib rapture timing view - after the 7 year 70th week ends

anytime rapture timing view - before the ToD act by the Antichrist.

@ WPM, make the distinction of the Amil rapture timing view is - in place of the ?????????? above.

imo, I think you should say, "at Jesus's Second Coming". But don't call it the "post-trib" view.
 

CadyandZoe

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I did not say that. I do not believe that. There are many Posttrib Premillers out there.
No, you didn't say it, but the structure and assumptions you make in your argument only make sense in an Amil milieu.
 

CadyandZoe

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You are doing a horrible job of explaining whatever point it is that you're trying to make. Sure, you don't necessarily have to quote every scripture reference, but you have to do SOMETHING to show what point you're making. In this thread you are doing almost NOTHING to show that. Which makes me wonder why you are even here.
I don't think it's my fault. If you don't get it then I'm sorry. But I was quite clear.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I am not pre-trib rapture timing view, but anytime rapture timing view. You are not post-trib rapture timing view as you claim, but Amil rapture timing view. The Amil rapture timing view adherents do not incorporate any of the end times time frames found in the bible.
Doug, will you please stop foolishly trying to represent what we believe? You make yourself look really bad when you do that. You don't have a clue of what we believe and you have proven that over and over again. With our understanding of the tribulation, we ARE post-trib, so stop saying we're not post-trib. There are post-trib premils and post-trib amils. You don't have the authority to decide what label we can apply to ourselves. Will you please stop acting like you are God? You always think you can tell everyone else what to do. You are so unbelievably arrogant. Humble yourself, Doug. Do we try to tell you what label to give your view? No. You say it's an anytime rapture view. That's fine with me. I don't care what you call it. Yet, you won't show us the same courtesy.

Since you are Amil. Why don't you put forth what the Amil rapture timing view is - in your post, instead of confusing it with the widely known and widely defined post-trib rapture timing view.
There are plenty of post-trib premils who have a similar understanding of a tribulation period before Christ comes as we do and they understand it's primarily spiritual tribulation that occurs before He returns rather than physical.

I am saying this as a positive suggestion, so others can understand what Amils believe.
I don't see others having so much trouble understanding what we believe as you do. It's really quite simple if you actually paid attention to what we say.

There is the....

Amil rapture timing view - ??????????

pre-trib rapture timing view - before the 7 year 70th week begins.

post-trib rapture timing view - after the 7 year 70th week ends

anytime rapture timing view - before the ToD act by the Antichrist.

@ WPM Make the distinction of the Amil rapture timing view is - in place of the ?????????? above.

imo, I think you should say, "at Jesus's Second Coming". But don't call it the "post-trib" view.
We hold to the post-trib view and the amil view. You can call it the post-trib amil view if you want. Thank you for your useless suggestions, anyway.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I don't think it's my fault. If you don't get it then I'm sorry. But I was quite clear.
Can you tell me one particular post when you were clear about what the point is that you are trying to make in this thread? Can you explain why you came as a post-trib, to this thread that clearly was made to refute pretrib, to debate post-trib amils instead of pretribs?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No, you didn't say it, but the structure and assumptions you make in your argument only make sense in an Amil milieu.
Tell us your understanding of exactly what the tribulation entails then. We probably all should do that in order to clarify what each of us is actually talking about when we say pre-trib or post-trib. We amils repeatedly indicate that our understanding of it is that it consists of spiritual tribulation in the form of increased persecution, a mass falling away from the faith, significantly increased wickedness and increased deception. We associate it with Satan's little season of Revelation 20.
 

CadyandZoe

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It is not two events. That is a baseless and foolish belief.
It's neither baseless or foolish. Just admit you don't see it the way I see it. I already explained why chapter 4 and chapter 5 are talking about different subjects and I am surprised that you don't see it.

If you can't see that this sentence introduces a new subject then I don't know why.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

Starting a sentence with "now" indicates a transition, helping to shift the focus from one topic to another.
 

GRACE ambassador

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Wow! Trinity is 'locked' up - now maybe this 'Absurdity' thread should be also, eh?

May God Help us!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's neither baseless or foolish. Just admit you don't see it the way I see it. I already explained why chapter 4 and chapter 5 are talking about different subjects and I am surprised that you don't see it.
Why would you be surprised that I don't see something that I consider to be baseless and foolish? There is NO indication whatsoever within 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 that Paul is speaking about more than one narrative there which is in regards to the day that Christ will return from heaven. On that day, Paul explains what happens to believers (dead in Christ resurrected and then caught up with those who are alive and remain to Christ in the air) and to unbelievers (sudden destruction from which they shall not escape). Just like what he taught in 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.

So, I am surprised that anyone doesn't see THAT.

If you can't see that this sentence introduces a new subject then I don't know why.
Because it clearly doesn't. He is clearly continuing the narrative that he began in 1 Thess 4:13. It was foolish for a chapter break to be put after 1 Thess 4:18.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

Starting a sentence with "now" indicates a transition, helping to shift the focus from one topic to another.
No, it indicates that he was continuing to talk about something related to what he had just been talking about. He transitioned to talking about what will happen to unbelievers on the day Jesus returns after first talking about what will happen to believers on that day.

I have to wonder how many would believe in 2 future comings of Christ, like you and pretribs do, if he would have done it the other way around in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 like he did in 2 Thess 1:7-10 in terms of first talking about what will happen to unbelievers on the day He returns followed by talking about what will happen to believers on that day. And I wonder how many would believe that if there was no chapter break after 1 Thess 4:18. Regardless, there's no excuse for not recognizing that he was continuing the narrative he began in 1 Thess 4:13 about the day Christ returns into 1 Thess 5.
 
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WPM

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What are you talking about?
You are clearly avoiding.
  1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
  2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
  3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?
 

Taken

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Not at all. I just point out the truth which is that you and your fellow pretribs are incapable of exegeting scripture which is why you never do so. You know you can't. When you actually examine scripture closely and in context, it's obvious that it comes nowhere near teaching pretrib.

Every “anti-pre-trib” thread has had a plethora of supportive Scripture…

Fact is no-one can read it for you, study it for you, understand it for you.

You think the Lamb of God, God WANTS those who have surrendered their Life to the Lord God TO Suffer Wrath God fully INTENDS to send down to all the inhabitants of the Earth….?? Certainly appears that is your position…which completely is in opposition of what God has planned for those IN Christ.

How do you address that? You haven’t, nor has other anti-pretribers, whose mission has repeatedly been mindful opinionated attacks, demands and gaslighting.

Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!

Pity on you.
 

Douggg

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Are you joking, Doug? You have to be. I have made it very clear that I'm Amil repeatedly on this forum.
Please go here...

 

Spiritual Israelite

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Thank you for noting the Basic:
I am a child OF God!
Let me make something clear. I do believe you are a child of God. I just happen to think you are a spiritually childish one. A "babe in Christ" as Paul talked about (1 Corinthians 3:1-3). At least as it comes to end times doctrine. Maybe you have a better understanding of other parts of scripture, I don't know. But, end times doctrine? Not so much.
 
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