The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

Most I know believe that Daniel's 70th week is historic. It is already fulfilled.

Then you cannot be post-trib, because in the post-trib view Jesus returns to end the 7 year 70th week, in His Second Coming.

You are Amil and hold the Amil rapture timing view - which is not the well known and well defined post-trib view.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Here are all the end times time frames given in the bible and their passage reference. Aggregated together they make up the events to take place in the 7 years immediately preceding Jesus's Second Coming.

The issues you bring up in your list of questions are not simple statements found in any one passage in the bible, whether it be in Daniel 9, or else where.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What is your theology then? Forget about the seven year tribulation, you can insert a tribulation period of your own choosing. And show me this in the text. It is you that is claiming this. I am just exposing the error of it.

Maybe I can help.

The pretribulation doctrine teaches that believers will be taken off the Earth before the tribulation begins. According to this belief, there should be no verses that mention Christians suffering and surviving the tribulation. However, there are verses that do talk about this.

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

According to the verse above, John depicts a great number of people who have come out of the great tribulation.

Revelation 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

We see similar wording to Revelation 7:14: people wearing white robes are being killed for being "fellow servants," and they were told to rest a little while longer until the rest of their brethren who were to be killed are killed just as they were.

Hopefully this is helpful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They are emotionally destroyed.( REMEMBER YOU HEARD THE CORRECT CONTEXT FROM REBUILDER. AND HE WILL CONTINUE CORRECTING YOUR ERROR)

LOL. This is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard on end-time forums. This sums up Pretrib!

LOL! That opinion deserves to be endlessly mocked. It's insane and absurd and reflects how desperate he is to keep his doctrine afloat. He will literally do anything to keep it afloat. There is no scripture that he won't twist beyond recognition in order to support his pet doctrine.

Just think about this nonsense for a minute. He expects us to believe that Paul was saying that sudden emotional destruction will occur when the day of the Lord comes from which "they shall not escape"? How exactly does one not escape emotional destruction? LOL!

 

[WPM]

Maybe I can help.

The pretribulation doctrine teaches that believers will be taken off the Earth before the tribulation begins. According to this belief, there should be no verses that mention Christians suffering and surviving the tribulation. However, there are verses that do talk about this.

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

According to the verse above, John depicts a great number of people who have come out of the great tribulation.

Revelation 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

We see similar wording to Revelation 7:14: people wearing white robes are being killed for being "fellow servants," and they were told to rest a little while longer until the rest of their brethren who were to be killed are killed just as they were.

Hopefully this is helpful.

No it does not. You are clearly avoiding.

1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then you cannot be post-trib, because in the post-trib view Jesus returns to end the 7 year 70th week, in His Second Coming.

Here you are again trying to tell us how we should understand the tribulation. You have delusions of grandeur that lead you to believe that you are the one who defines terms for us. You need to humble yourself and acknowledge that this is not up to you to decide.

You are Amil and hold the Amil rapture timing view - which is not the well known and well defined post-trib view.

LOL. Call it the post-trib premil view then because our view IS post-trib no matter what you say.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The purpose of this thread is primarily to refute pretrib, so you introducing a different view than pretrib, which is also a different view than the one held by those of us refuting pretrib in this thread, is not very helpful and only causes potential confusion. So, maybe we should start a new thread about the absurdity of your doctrine.

I can count on one hand the number of people who share my view of the end times. :)
I need help understanding your complaint since I have begun interacting directly with WPM's posts and providing scriptures to support my view.

If I were to characterize his argument it boils down to this. One must affirm the Amill understanding of various verses in order to be post-trib. I don't think this is true and I don't think it is helpful to take that approach.

 

[WPM]

LOL! That opinion deserve to be endlessly mocked. It's insane and absurd and reflects how desperate he is to keep his doctrine afloat. He will literally do anything to keep it afloat. There is no scripture that he won't twist beyond recognition in order to support his pet doctrine.

Just think about this nonsense for a minute. He expects us to believe that Paul was saying that sudden emotional destruction will occur when the day of the Lord comes from which "they shall not escape"? How exactly does one not escape emotional destruction? LOL!

View attachment 48024

Exactly. That is what we have to deal with on here.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No it does not. You are clearly avoiding.

1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?

So what?

 

[WPM]

Then you cannot be post-trib, because in the post-trib view Jesus returns to end the 7 year 70th week, in His Second Coming.

You are Amil and hold the Amil rapture timing view - which is not the well known and well defined post-trib view.


Here are all the end times time frames given in the bible and their passage reference. Aggregated together they make up the events to take place in the 7 years immediately preceding Jesus's Second Coming.

The issues you bring up in your list of questions are not simple statements found in any one passage in the bible, whether it be in Daniel 9, or else where.



View attachment 48023

Stop your lies. You do not get it do you? When Pretribbers try to speak on behalf of Posttribs they tend to misrepresent. We can speak ably for ourselves: we definitely do not need you to twist what we believe. Stop talking on our behalf. You just avoided the obvious.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[WPM]

So what?

LOL. Because you have to. You have nothing. You promote error. Your doctrine has been officially exposed. Checkmate!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you believe that the rapture could possibly happen today - you don't hold the post-trib view, which maintains that the rapture can only happen on the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

I'm just shaking my head over here. That is what we believe! I'm talking about Amils like me, WPM, jeffweeder, covenantee, rwb, etc. Goodness sakes, Doug. After all these years you still don't even know what we believe? Take your eyes off your charts for a minute and learn what other people believe. You can't debate others when you don't even know what they believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. Because you have to. You have nothing. You promote error. Your doctrine has been officially exposed. Checkmate!

Drop the mic. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the deity of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ needs to be exposed for the wolf in sheep's clothing that he is.

 

[WPM]

If I were to characterize his argument it boils down to this. One must affirm the Amill understanding of various verses in order to be post-trib. I don't think this is true and I don't think it is helpful to take that approach.

I did not say that. I do not believe that. There are many Posttrib Premillers out there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that's not what I want. I want to have conversations with people like you and others who are already familiar with the relevant passages. I've been in a men's Bible study for over 20 years, and because we've been together for so long, I already know what they're going to say before they say it. There's no need for me to quote the scriptures to you since you already know them.

You are doing a horrible job of explaining whatever point it is that you're trying to make. Sure, you don't necessarily have to quote every scripture reference, but you have to do SOMETHING to show what point you're making. In this thread you are doing almost NOTHING to show that. Which makes me wonder why you are even here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

QUOTE:
"LOL at "emotionally destroyed". What a joke. That is not what Paul is talking about at all. LOL! You will do ANYTHING and go to ANY length to try to keep your weak doctrine afloat.
Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture? While Paul does not go into detail about what causes the "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord, Peter does."

I am not the one erroneously claiming the rapture is at the white horses

Lol
You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

LOL. Are you being serious here or are you just a clown? Are you seriously trying to say something about my view when YOU are the one trying to say that Paul is talking about emotional destruction in 1 Thess 5:2-3 coming on the day of the Lord from which "they shall not escape"? Please explain to me how people will not escape the supposed emotional destruction that will come on the day of the Lord! Good luck!

 

[Taken]

The next time you or any other pretrib here exegetes scripture and provides a coherent argument will be the first time.

Was suspect and now convinced you are not qualified to have a conversation regarding Spiritual Understanding.
For your own well being you should focus on yourself and the Spiritual Understanding God wants you to have.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does Paul say that "none" escape? Yes, he says some will escape. He discusses two events. The first event is the rapture, and the second event is the Day of the Lord, which concerns the times and seasons. Regarding the Day of the Lord, he mentions some who will not escape destruction and others who are not appointed to wrath. Due to the fact that some are in darkness, the day will overtake them like a thief. But the children of the light, live in hope of salvation and since they are not appointed to wrath, they will obtain salvation.

The travail of a woman with a child represents the inevitability of the event. A woman suffers pain without relief for a short time until the birth of her baby, which brings great joy. Israel must suffer great pain during that time, but the outcome will bring much joy to Israel.

It is not two events. That is a baseless and foolish belief. Who escapes the "sudden destruction" that will come on the day of the Lord? Those who are caught up by the rapture. Who else will escape it? No one. As 2 Peter 3:10-12 makes abundantly clear.

You told me that you believe 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is a reference to the rapture. Remember? Well, Paul clearly indicated what else will happen on that day when the rapture occurs. It's shown in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 and also here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There's no way around this. Since you acknowledged that 2 Thess 1:10 is referring to the day when the rapture will occur, then, if you were honest, you would also acknowledge that Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" on that same day as Paul clearly taught. But, up to this point, you foolishly deny that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was suspect and now convinced you are not qualified to have a conversation regarding Spiritual Understanding.
For your own well being you should focus on yourself and the Spiritual Understanding God wants you to have.

Glory to God,
Taken

Translation: You have no interest in actually exegeting scripture and would rather just give a bunch of unsupported opinions and think that's enough to convince anyone that you have any idea of what you're talking about.

 

[Taken]

LOL! Translation: You have no ability whatsoever to make a coherent argument using scripture. As proven by the fact that you don't even attempt to do so.

You are not qualified to speak for me or translate for me.
Sometimes I simply have to just let the ignorant be ignorant.

 

[Taken]

Translation: You have no interest in actually exegeting scripture and would rather just give a bunch of unsupported opinions and think that's enough to convince anyone that you have any idea of what you're talking about.

Gaslighter.