The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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Spiritual Israelite

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Are you going to go for the "any day rapture view" as well ? Defined as that your view spans the rapture could happen"any day" between and including today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.


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Do you actually think we would agree to give this label you described to our view when you know very well that this is not what we believe as amils? You're showing a premil view for one thing, and we do NOT believe that He could return any day before the day of His second coming as we've made clear MANY times. We've made it very clear that, just like other post-tribs, we believe the rapture is part of the event that we call His second coming and therefore it happens on the same day and basically at the same time as His second coming even though it's not the only thing that happens when He comes. He also will destroy His enemies at that time and then the judgment will take place after that in eternity.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I will delete. I skim his posts.

Added: deleted!
No problem at all. You might as well just ignore his posts completely since he's not interested in accurately reflecting what we believe. Which seems to be on purpose. Either that or he is not able to understand what anyone tells him.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I think he lives in denial that anyone could in anyway disagree with him or his charts. That is pride!
It's amazing to me if anyone ever does agree with his beliefs or his charts. He definitely has some beliefs all to himself as do some other lone wolves on this forum.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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@WPM

By adopting the Any Day rapture view, you can put the burden on pre-trib as to why the rapture must happen before the 7 year 70th week (which they are calling the trib) begins.

Likewise, you can put the burden on anytime rapture view (like I hold) of why the rapture must happen before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

And by adopting the Any Day rapture view, you can hold that the rapture may not take place until the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

With the post-trib view, you are burden with proving that the rapture can only happen on that one day of Jesus's Second Coming.
We have proven that MANY times., so that is no burden at all. You just ignore what you are told and ignore the many holes in your doctrine.

So, if I were you I would drop the post-trib view, and go with the newly created, coined, Any Day rapture view.
LOL. Think again. That's a nonsense view just like yours.

You are going to have to explain the Any Day rapture view when entering into discussion from now on, since it is new, but the explanation is simple as defined on the chart in the blue letters. Just copy and paste the chart when the discussions take place.
LOL. You are a comedian, Doug. Maybe you should try that as a career.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Thank you for noting the Basic:
I am a child OF God!

I contend (revealed by your own posts, your own words) you FAIL to Comprehend the difference between Mindful Understanding and Spiritual Understanding…
THUS…
Attempting to have a meaningful Conversation with you FROM a Spiritual Understanding POINT of View, is a FAIL…

Glory to God,
Taken
The next time you or any other pretrib here exegetes scripture and provides a coherent argument will be the first time.
 

CadyandZoe

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It is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind.
Forget all that. Just make your case.
This is the end. It is over. We are not into eternity. There are no survivors. You are unable to show survivors here.
What makes you think that Paul is talking about "the end"? Where does Paul mention an ending in 1 Thessalonians 5? He doesn't. Let's stick to the text, okay?

This coming is not only sudden but noisy.
What makes it noisy? Paul says that Jesus will raise his followers at the command of the archangel and at the last trumpet, but we have yet to determine who will hear the trumpet or the command.
Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.
You have mixed two events that were not intended to be understood as one event. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 5 describes the day of the Lord. We understand that these two events are unique and not the same based on what takes place and the movement of people.

Rapture:
1. Movement -- Jesus comes down to the clouds, and his followers meet him there.
2. Activity
a. Jesus approaches the Ancient of days to receive dominion over all the nations.
b. Jesus meets his followers to be glorified among them.

DOL:
1. Movement -- Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers.
2. Activity -- Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost.
The "Thief in the Night" metaphor teaches about preparation. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it.
It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
The passage's essential meaning is focused on Israel's efforts to secure protection and peace with neighbors rather than the destruction of people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them . . .

What are the guarantors of peace and safety, if not international relations, namely diplomacy, international law, peacekeeping forces, and economic cooperation? And so what is being destroyed if not treaties, the United Nations, Peacekeeping forces, Trade agreements, fortresses, security measures, walls, military troops, and weapons?
 

WPM

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Forget all that. Just make your case.

What makes you think that Paul is talking about "the end"? Where does Paul mention an ending in 1 Thessalonians 5? He doesn't. Let's stick to the text, okay?


What makes it noisy? Paul says that Jesus will raise his followers at the command of the archangel and at the last trumpet, but we have yet to determine who will hear the trumpet or the command.

You have mixed two events that were not intended to be understood as one event. 1 Thessalonians 4 describes the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 5 describes the day of the Lord. We understand that these two events are unique and not the same based on what takes place and the movement of people.

Rapture:
1. Movement -- Jesus comes down to the clouds, and his followers meet him there.
2. Activity
a. Jesus approaches the Ancient of days to receive dominion over all the nations.
b. Jesus meets his followers to be glorified among them.

DOL:
1. Movement -- Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers.
2. Activity -- Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies.


The "Thief in the Night" metaphor teaches about preparation. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it.

The passage's essential meaning is focused on Israel's efforts to secure protection and peace with neighbors rather than the destruction of people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them . . .

What are the guarantors of peace and safety, if not international relations, namely diplomacy, international law, peacekeeping forces, and economic cooperation? And so what is being destroyed if not treaties, the United Nations, Peacekeeping forces, Trade agreements, fortresses, security measures, walls, military troops, and weapons?

I will repeat: it is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. You are presenting a whole load of Pretrib jargon that you have been taught that is not in the passage. That is why you cannot quote it. If it was there you would quote it.

Let us cut through all the taught error (and please stay to the text):
  1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
  2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
  3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a 7 years trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Let me get this straight. Pretty much all the translators translated the verse as......Many of Those.........and .........Many of Them. You want come along and change the translation to abundance because properly translated it proves what you are saying is incorrect and does not agree with scripture. So you in all your great wisdom and authority have decided that you know more than all these educated translators.

Get real. The scripture says many of those or many of them. You are in error again, which you already knew. Deal with it.
What is your excuse for your ignorance? This is a serious question. Are you too lazy to consult Hebrew and Greek resources for further understanding of scripture?

The English word "many" there is translated from the Hebrew word "raḇ". Most often the word is translated as "great", like in the following verse:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great (rab) on the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But, sometimes the word is used in reference to indicate a large but indefinite number.

Daniel 12:2 is an example of that and here is another example:

Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many (Hebrew: rab) days.

In your view where you give almost no thought to what Daniel 12:2 is really saying, you assume that it's referring to many, but not all of the dead being resurrected at that time. But, the Hebrew word does not mean "many, but not all".

In the verse above, is it referring to all of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or just many, but not all of the days that Abraham sojourned there? It's referring to all of the days he sojourned there, right? So, can you see how your understanding that the word "many" has to mean a large number, but not all of something is flawed?

Here is another example in case you are somehow missing my point.

Genesis 37:34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for his son many (rab) days.

This verse relates to when Jacob thought that his son Joseph had died, so he was mourning his (supposed) death for "many days". Is that talking about only some, but not all of the days that Jacob mourned Joseph's supposed death or is it referring to all of the days that he mourned? All of them, right? So, can you see how your understanding of the word "many" is flawed?

And here is one more example to support my point:

Exodus 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many (rab), and ye make them rest from their burdens.

This is Pharaoah describing the Hebrew slaves and saying that they "now are many". Was he only referring to some of the Hebrew slaves there or all of them? All of them, right? So, once again the word was used in a different way than you think it is used in Daniel 12:2.

I'll give one last example just in case my point hasn't sunk in yet:

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude (rab) went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

Again, the word isn't used to refer to many, but not all of something here. It's referring to all the people who were going somewhere with their animals. The number of all the people was a multitude.

Do you not care whether or not your interpretation of one verse like Daniel 12:2 contradicts other verses in scripture?

Why would we not think that the following passages are speaking of the same event:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

James 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What do you think, that there will be two events in the future when both saved and lost people are resurrected? That's complete nonsense and can't be supported by any other scripture. Do you not care about that?

Jesus made it clear that an hour is coming when ALL of the dead will be raised. Why would we think that Daniel was not referring to the same thing in Daniel 12:2? Only doctrinal bias and a lack of understanding of the Hebrew word "rab" could lead someone to that conclusion. Daniel referred to the same resurrection of all of the dead that Jesus did and he referred to the number of all the dead being resurrected as "many". The phrase "a multitude" also could have been used there instead of "many of them". In no way, shape or form was Daniel intending to say that only some, but not all, of the dead would be resurrected at the time he was referring to in Daniel 12:1-3.

We should also consider the fact that Paul indicated that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23), so there is no reason to think that believers will be resurrected at two or more different times. What Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 tell us is that the lost will all be resurrected at generally the same time as all of those who are saved.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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You are forcing something into this that does not exist. Of course, "there is more than one time and one season." Hello! We all know that and believe that. But Jesus is talking about the different events that occur before the one final future coming of Christ. You cannot attribute anything more to that. If you do, then you are manipulating the Word of God to support your own beliefs.

Wrath accompanies the coming of Christ. It is the end. The end is ushered in when Jesus comes. None escape. That is the mantra of Scripture. You (and your fellow Pretribbers) refuse to take Scripture literally.

The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.
Exactly. They have no problem with comparing the days before the flood and the days before the fire came down on Sodom to the days before Jesus comes, but somehow they miss that Jesus also compared the day of His second coming to the day when "the flood came and destroyed them all" and the day that Lot went out of Sodom and the fire came down "and destroyed them all".

But, somehow, they conveniently ignore that Jesus was obviously implying that the wrath that will come down at His second coming will "destroy them all" as well in terms of all of His enemies on that day. With all believers being changed to immortality, that leaves no mortals left on the earth to populate an imaginary earthly millennial kingdom. But, Premils stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what Jesus so clearly taught.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Mat 24 has 2 distinct vivid gatherings.
Which you omitted.....over and over.
No, it does not. And you can do nothing to prove that. You are obviously incapable of exegeting scripture and showing exactly how it supports your claims. Otherwise, you would have done that by now. Your opinions mean nothing without scriptural support and you do not even attempt to use scriptural support to back up your opinions, which says it all.
 

CadyandZoe

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I will repeat: it is very simple what this is saying to the unindoctrinated mind. You are presenting a whole load of Pretrib jargon that you have been taught that is not in the passage. That is why you cannot quote it. If it was there you would quote it.

Let us cut through all the taught error (and please stay to the text):
  1. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus comes down to the ground with his followers"?
  2. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it say "Jesus makes war against Israel's enemies"?
  3. Where in I Thessalonians 4:15-5:51 does it a 7 years trib or any length of tribulation after Christ's coming?
Did I mention pretrib? No. Did I mention a 7-year trib? No. Does Jesus return to the earth? Yes. Everyone knows this. Does Jesus make war with Israel's enemies? Yes. Everyone knows this.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

There is no 7-year trib here. There is no trib period. You have to add it unto Scripture. That is what Pretrib is and does.

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?
Yes, exactly. Their interpretation of the book of Revelation blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse and what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 5. Both Jesus and Paul indicated that people would be at peace and believe they were safe while doing their normal daily activities before the day of unexpected and "sudden destruction" arrives at Christ's second coming. But, pretribs believe that a lot of chaos and destruction will be going on leading up to that day of His second coming which contradicts what Jesus said about the days leading up to His second coming in Matthew 24:35-39 and what Paul said about the days leading up to Christ's second coming in 1 Thess 5:1-11.

We need to emphasize this more to expose how their interpretation of Revelation and what they think it says about the days leading up to Christ's second coming contradicts what Jesus and Paul taught about the days leading up to the second coming.
 
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WPM

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Did I mention pretrib? No. Did I mention a 7-year trib? No. Does Jesus return to the earth? Yes. Everyone knows this. Does Jesus make war with Israel's enemies? Yes. Everyone knows this.
What is your theology then? Forget about the seven year tribulation, you can insert a tribulation period of your own choosing. And show me this in the text. It is you that is claiming this. I am just exposing the error of it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Did I mention pretrib? No. Did I mention a 7-year trib? No. Does Jesus return to the earth? Yes. Everyone knows this. Does Jesus make war with Israel's enemies? Yes. Everyone knows this.
The purpose of this thread is primarily to refute pretrib, so you introducing a different view than pretrib, which is also a different view than the one held by those of us refuting pretrib in this thread, is not very helpful and only causes potential confusion. So, maybe we should start a new thread about the absurdity of your doctrine.
 
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WPM

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No, it does not. And you can do nothing to prove that. You are obviously incapable of exegeting scripture and showing exactly how it supports your claims. Otherwise, you would have done that by now. Your opinions mean nothing without scriptural support and you do not even attempt to use scriptural support to back up your opinions, which says it all.

They think, that if they claim a thing that makes it a fact. That is how foolish their doctrine is. They cannot carry through with hard Scripture. It is man's foolish speculations.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I haven’t referred to my doctrine.
I expressly quoted Gods approved scripture.
Jesus’ doctrine is SIMPLE.
It is lack of SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING that gives people a sting.
I agree that Jesus's doctrine is simple, but yours definitely is not. As everyone can see whenever you actually try to explain it. You have shown a tremendous lack of spiritual understanding in your posts.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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They think, that if they claim a thing that makes it a fact. That is how foolish their doctrine is. They cannot carry through with hard Scripture. It is is man's foolish speculations.
They all think they prove something by just spewing their incoherent opinions while NEVER actually exegeting scripture. You can't get any more delusional than that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Already did.
You should have learned in First grade how to concisely answer a direct question.

Teacher ~ Question
Susie does your mother live in the house you live in?
Student ~ Answer
A lady lives in my house.
Teacher ~ Vague, doesn’t answer question.
Teacher ~ Try again.
Student ~ Answer
Yes.

Not my job to teach you how to have a valid worthwhile conversation.
LOL! Translation: You have no ability whatsoever to make a coherent argument using scripture. As proven by the fact that you don't even attempt to do so.
 
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