The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

So no one can have a true opinion?

If you can't back it up with scripture, then there is no reason to take you seriously. Everyone knows this.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, you are taking 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 completely out of context. The context indicates that the destruction itself will be sudden and unexpected, but your view does not reflect that. Paul said nothing about the revealing of the man of sin being sudden and unexpected, he said the destruction that comes with the arrival of the day of the Lord will be sudden and unexpected. But, in your view the destruction doesn't even come until years after the day of the Lord will arrive. That is not what Paul and Peter taught about the day of the Lord at all.

All the rapture verses have zero destruction.
The only gathering with destruction is the one after the trib at the white horses coming. Which can not be the rapture of the Church. Impossible.

So your deal is NA.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Would any other pre-tribber like to be honest for once like CadyandZoe was and admit that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is a clear reference to what will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Only extreme doctrinal bias would lead someone to think the above verse won't happen when the following happens:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[WPM]

Go ahead and post the scriptural support for that. Crickets.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

For him to think that he could outsmart God, curtail God or defeat God is the ultimate definition of insanity. To properly understand the authority we are talking about we need to see the nature of the actual conflict that we are engaged in on this earth.

• It is spiritual.
• It is fought in the unseen heavenly realm.
• It’s supernatural.

Many Premils walk about today with a big devil and a small God, instead of a big God and a small devil. This is revealed in their timid, anxious, powerless, directionless, and ineffective lifestyle.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

Scriptures pits the battle between Christ and Satan, not even you and Satan. There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us (present tense) kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Hello! The Bible says we are kings!!!

What do kings do?

• They possess authority.
• They exercise power.
• They call the shots.
• They identify, confront and overcome their enemies.
• They rule over their enemies, their enemies do not rule over them.

The Christian does not try to produce authority, he has authority. It is who he is. Those who are always talking to talk, and not walking the walk, are all fizz and bubble. They are want-to-be Christians. But if you have authority and power people recognize it. It is who you are!

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, while we will rule in the future, we also rule now spiritually. We are presently a kingly priesthood.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. We are in forcing God’s will around us. When God speaks we move, relay and do.

Whether we preach, prophecy, intercede, cast out devils, or pray for the sick, we must do it in Jesus name. Why? Because Christ is already defeated Satan, and by us being in Christ, we have the right to enforce that victory. Amen? That is our authority. That is our standing.

Revelation is full of symbolism. I'm sorry that you do not get that. Crowns represent authority. We are kings and priests right now. Kings possess crowns. God's people are reigning on earth as spiritual kings and priests implement the victory of the cross. That is because they carry spiritual authority. Multiple Scripture tells us Christ has given us "power" and "authority" now.

Believers claim their authority and power through and since the cross. They rule as kings and priests (in life and death) from then.

We reign over our spiritual enemies today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All the rapture verses have zero destruction.

Except for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Matthew 24:29-51 and Mark 13:24-32, you mean?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know they do not believe in soul sleep, but they never seem to want to acknowledge that the book of Revelation refers to the souls of the dead in Christ when referring to believers in heaven. Nowhere does it indicate that they have immortal bodies yet when they are referenced as being in heaven. John even specifically says he saw their souls in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4, so the idea that he saw believers in heaven with immortal bodies is completely imaginary.

One argument is that the 24 elders having crowns proves that their bodies have been redeemed because scripture indicates that we will receive the crown of life when our bodies are redeemed, yet it does not even specify who the 24 elders are or represent and it does not say they are wearing the crown of life. So, pretrib is entirely based on assumptions and speculation about highly debatable scripture, unlike our amil doctrine which is based on clear and straightforward scripture. It is just a complete mess and I believe any objective onlooker can easily see that.

The innumerable number are Christians that have been martyred during the tribulation. They are in heaven during the tribulation. What's interesting is that before they entered heaven the martyrs were restricted to a area under the altar, and not in the general population of Heaven. And they are told to stay there until their number is finished. So we see now the martyrs are not no longer restricted to under the altar, but in fact ,during the tribulationhe martyrs are in the general population of heaven.
So I would say that works pretty hard against your deal.
once all these verses are compiled, we see a pattern and an array of verses that make you go against the Bible.

 

[The Light]

A few questions for you…if you can answer.

Not sure he will answer these............but I will.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1) Who is this Lord in the air?
2) Who is meeting this Lord in the air?
3) IS this meeting before or after Jesus returns to Earth?

1 Jesus
2 The alive who remained.
3. Before Jesus returns to earth.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

1) Who is this Lamb on Mount Sion?
2) During which portion of the end of days Tribulation in Revelations, (1-7 Seals?, 1-7 Trumps, 1-3 Woes?, 1-7 Bowls?) is this Lamb present on Mount Sion?

1. Jesus
2. It absolutely has to be before the 5th seal which we can prove by Revelation 14. I suspect this will occur just before the seals are opened on the Feast of New Oil.
3 Yes Jesus is present on Mount Sion.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

1) Who is this Son of Man?
2) IS this taking place before or after Jesus returns to earth.
3) Who is with Him?

1 Jesus
2 Before
3 His angels are with Him as is the Church which is gathered from heaven at the gathering from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Jesus remains in the clouds. All that are gathered from the earth and the Church return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is the great multitude that is seen in Rev 7.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

For him to think that he could outsmart God, curtail God or defeat God is the ultimate definition of insanity. To properly understand the authority we are talking about we need to see the nature of the actual conflict that we are engaged in on this earth.

• It is spiritual.
• It is fought in the unseen heavenly realm.
• It’s supernatural.

Many Premils walk about today with a big devil and a small God, instead of a big God and a small devil. This is revealed in their timid, anxious, powerless, directionless, and ineffective lifestyle.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

Scriptures pits the battle between Christ and Satan, not even you and Satan. There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us (present tense) kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Hello! The Bible says we are kings!!!

What do kings do?

• They possess authority.
• They exercise power.
• They call the shots.
• They identify, confront and overcome their enemies.
• They rule over their enemies, their enemies do not rule over them.

The Christian does not try to produce authority, he has authority. It is who he is. Those who are always talking to talk, and not walking the walk, are all fizz and bubble. They are want-to-be Christians. But if you have authority and power people recognize it. It is who you are!

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, while we will rule in the future, we also rule now spiritually. We are presently a kingly priesthood.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. We are in forcing God’s will around us. When God speaks we move, relay and do.

Whether we preach, prophecy, intercede, cast out devils, or pray for the sick, we must do it in Jesus name. Why? Because Christ is already defeated Satan, and by us being in Christ, we have the right to enforce that victory. Amen? That is our authority. That is our standing.

Revelation is full of symbolism. I'm sorry that you do not get that. Crowns represent authority. We are kings and priests right now. Kings possess crowns. God's people are reigning on earth as spiritual kings and priests implement the victory of the cross. That is because they carry spiritual authority. Multiple Scripture tells us Christ has given us "power" and "authority" now.

Believers claim their authority and power through and since the cross. They rule as kings and priests (in life and death) from then.

We reign over our spiritual enemies today.

Hmmmm
I would think that a postribber would make a case that conclusively upheld that position

Nothing you posted does that, but rather describes what we now posses in this earthly walk.
Maybe take our verses and show us where each one has Jesus being mistaken about what He wrote.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, as post trib Amil we believe the rapture shall come when the last trumpet sounds the Lord's Second coming! That does not anticipate a SPECIFIC day, but a day that none shall know which shall come when the last trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer. The problem you face is trying to use Scripture to prove the day after Jesus returns marks the beginning of more time (one thousand more years) even though Scripture plainly tells us that time for this earth is no more when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. Scripture also proves that the last trumpet marks the resurrection and rapture when Christ comes the Second time.

Amen! Pretribs do not allow scripture to interpret scripture.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Among other things, the seventh trumpet announces that "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" has come. When are the dead judged? AFTER the thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Would any other pre-tribber like to be honest for once like CadyandZoe was and admit that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is a clear reference to what will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Only extreme doctrinal bias would lead someone to think the above verse won't happen when the following happens:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

By the way, I am not Pretrib.

 

[WPM]

All the rapture verses have zero destruction.
The only gathering with destruction is the one after the trib at the white horses coming. Which can not be the rapture of the Church. Impossible.

So your deal is NA.

LOL. Not true. The opposite is the truth! We have showed you multiple second coming passages that show destruction immediately follows the coming of the Lord and the rescue of the saints, but you ignore them or reject them. Scripture depicts the coming of the Lord as the end, but you ignore them or reject them. Your doctrine is based on false Pretrib claims rather than explicit scriptural declarations.

I will re-present some of these to start us off.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hmmmm
I would think that a postribber would make a case that conclusively upheld that position

Nothing you posted does that, but rather describes what we now posses in this earthly walk.
Maybe take our verses and show us where each one has Jesus being mistaken about what He wrote.

LOL. You are hilarious. This is all you have in response to someone exegeting scripture. You never exegete scripture yourself. And we're supposed to believe you? LOL. You are completely delusional.

 

[Douggg]

Scripture also proves that the last trumpet marks the resurrection and rapture when Christ comes the Second time.

Christ's Second Coming is a specific day.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What happens to the dead in Christ when they die? They enter the presence of God upon death. Are you calling that a Pretrib rapture? Your reasoning is getting more confusing by the moment.

"..which WERE redeemed from the earth"

You are making a case for " firstfruits unto God", as meaningless, if they are not either raptured, or martyred/ resurrected.

 

[CadyandZoe]

For some reason you decided not to address it in direct response to me. I don't necessarily read every post that isn't directed to me since there are so many.

I apologize. Sorry about that.

Okay, so you agree that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is a reference to the rapture, which you call "Coming 1". So, do you ignore the preceding verses which tell what also happens on that day?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage clearly shows Jesus destroying His enemies on the same day that the rapture (1 Thess 4:16) occurs. So, why do you separate those into two entirely different comings of Christ?

Do you believe that Paul meant a 24-hour period?

 

[WPM]

Hmmmm
I would think that a postribber would make a case that conclusively upheld that position

Nothing you posted does that, but rather describes what we now posses in this earthly walk.
Maybe take our verses and show us where each one has Jesus being mistaken about what He wrote.

What? Where was Jesus wrong?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By the way, I am not Pretrib.

But, you believe in 2 more comings of Christ just like they do, so that is what I'm addressing. I showed that your "Coming 2" happens on the same day as your "Coming 1" which completely refutes your belief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I apologize. Sorry about that.

Do you believe that Paul meant a 24-hour period?

Yes, of course. Why not? There is no indication otherwise whatsoever. This is you once again trying to twist scripture to fit your view.

 

[Taken]

This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.



That is a picture of heavenly Jerusalem today. Earthly Jerusalem has been judged and condemned already. She has lost her theocratic favorite position throughout the world.



This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.

Thanks for trying, however your answer was vague and did not answer the questions.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Except for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Matthew 24:29-51 and Mark 13:24-32, you mean?

Mat 24 has 2 distinct vivid gatherings.
Which you omitted.....over and over.