Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Clear as mud. Just like your pretrib doctrine. You obviously can't support it with any coherent arguments using scripture.
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The whole pretrib doctrine is imaginary which is why they obviously are completely unable to exegete scripture in a way that supports their doctrine. It is a mess.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where is this "great tribulation" mentioned in Luke 21:34-36, which you used to support this claim? That passage refers to something affecting the entire world on "that day" when Jesus comes, but certainly not anything 1,335 days long.
What day ? The day of Lord, which will begin when the man of sin is revealed by going into the temple, sitting claiming to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4.
The rapture, which Luke 21:34-46 is referring to, will take place before the day of the Lord begins.
Jesus in Matthew 24:15-21 said the great tribulation will begin when the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is standing in the holy place.
In Daniel 12:11-12 is the setting up of the abomination of desolation - which begins the great tribulation. Which ends in verse 12, 1335 days later.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
There is absolutely no "day of the Lord" passage the teaches that. You just rabbit the error that you have been taught without even checking the Word of God to see if it is true. You've bought into a lie.
Where is "the day of the Lord" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4? Nowhere! You force it in. Adding unto Scripture is your MO. That sums up Pretrib! It has nothing so it has to twist Scripture to fit it. Let me quote it to show your absurdity:
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Why are you not convicted about manipulating the Word of God? Does the truth not resonate with you?
This is all very troubling!
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where is there any indication in Luke 21 that the day of the Lord begins before the actual day Jesus comes and that the day of the Lord lasts for more than one literal 24 hour day? Show me.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to distract from what we were talking about? If what you are saying was true, then it could be shown in Luke 21. So, show me this in Luke 21, please. Luke talks about escaping something that would unexpectedly come upon all those dwelling upon the whole earth. Where does Matthew 24:15-21 make any mention of an event like that?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree. The dishonesty of pretribs is quite disturbing. They seem to have no conscience about twisting scripture to make it fit their doctrine. That verse relates to something that Paul indicated in the verse just prior to that has to occur first some time BEFORE the day of the Lord comes and he is deceptively trying to say that the day of the Lord begins at that point instead.
What about the actual "day of the Lord" passages? Why do you avoid them? Why do you dismiss what they teach? You have to in order to fit your error. You prefer your questionable charts and unrelated passages. Look at what happens when the state arrives. It is total destruction. It is the end of the world.
2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” or “wherein” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in which”:
The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. No one could surely deny that this is talking about the whole natural order here. The old order is going to be completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration so as to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms when the redeemed are glorified: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
This is the event when the righteous are changed. The wicked are destroyed at this same concluding occasion. This is the moment when death is finally banished from the earth.
There is no space for your imaginary future tribulation. Scripture will not allow it. That is why we need to reject it.
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What is "rabbit" the error ?
And please stop saying that have I been "taught" things from some human teacher. You don't know anything about my walk with the Lord.
What ? It is right in the text.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The great tribulation lasts 1335 days. And fits within the latter part of the Daniel 9:27 seventh week (7 years).
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spot on.
Douggg says: The day of the Lord will come when an Antichrist comes to sit in a physical temple that doesn't yet exist. There is nothing sudden or unexpected about this.
Scripture says: The day of the Lord will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction by fire upon the entire earth from which God's enemies will not escape.
Who should we believe? It's not a hard choice. I'll pick scripture every time.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you actually reading the text carefully? It doesn't say that the day of the Lord comes immediately when a falling away starts happening and immediately when the man of sin is revealed. No, it says those things have to happen first before the day of the Lord comes. The day of the Lord is what will put an end to that time of falling away and the man of sin doing the works of Satan.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The day of the Lord arrives when Jesus arrives. That's why it both describes the day of the Lord and His coming as occurring unexpectedly like a thief in the night. To have the day of the Lord starting any time before the day Christ returns is a case of contradicting what scripture repeatedly teaches about the day of the Lord's return.
In your view, the day of the Lord does NOT come unexpectedly like a thief in the night while bringing sudden destruction. Please address this.
The temple is not yet built. I agree on that point.
And is unlikely to be built until after the Gog/Magog event - because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount..
That the Antichrist goes into the temple (once built), sits, claiming to have God-hood - will be a sudden without warning act by the person. Up to that point, the Antichrist will have been thought to be the messiah by the Jews.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. As if you could disagree with it when I was simply showing what you believe. But, the problem is that such a temple is not what Paul would have called "the temple of God". You have no way around that. Any temple called "the temple of God" must be a true temple of God which some future temple built by Christ rejecting Jews would not be.
That your doctrine hinges on something that is unlikely to ever even happen says it all about your doctrine. It's on shaky ground, at best.
Tell me what would qualify such a temple to be called "the temple of God".
Putting an end to the falling away and the man of sin as you are saying - is a positive thing, right.
So why would the Thessalonians have been concerned that the day of the Lord had already begun ?
There will be a temple built because in Revelation 11:1-2, John was told to measure the temple of God.
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Neither you nor WPM are factoring in the end times time frames into your beliefs.
A temple built with the "intent" to be for the worshiping and praise of God.
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