The absurdity of Pretrib logic

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covenantee

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Where is the word "Church" mentioned in Revelation 4? Nowhere!

There is only one fold today. There only ever will be one fold.

Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of Israel. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

God's people are described as a singular nation called out from amongst the nations (plural). The objective unindoctrinated Bible student will see that the people of God have been united as one into a trans-national spiritual nation. Race doesn't matter anymore under the new covenant. It is all about grace. Your theology produces ethnic apartheid.

In His earthly ministry, and knowing what was coming, Christ asked the religious Jewish leaders, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21 42-44).

The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

The Church without any division is a distinct unitary nation. It is a holy nation. Natural ethnicity means nothing within it. Christians have their spiritual citizenship in heaven. There are no such thing as Christian nations today in the NT. That is your own invention. The problem with your theory is that you have a misconception of what the word "Christian" actually means. What you define as a "Christian" nation is far from it. Nations like the United States of America and United Kingdom possess governments, people and laws that are hostile to the truth of God.

1 Peter 2:9-10, ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

· A chosen generation
· A royal priesthood
· An holy nation
· A peculiar people
· Who have been called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The word rendered generation in the King James Version here is the Greek word genos meaning kin (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective). It comes up 21 times in the NT and this is the only occasion it is interpreted generation. It simply means kindred, kind, stock or offspring.
Amen bro.

Race doesn't matter anymore under the new covenant.
And notwithstanding dispensationalism's incessant attempts to racialize God and His Covenants, race never mattered under the old covenant either.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.
 
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rebuilder 454

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LOL. I have several times. Again: your response is total avoidance. I will repost. The reader will see the avoidance that is required for Pretrib to fit.

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

Revelation 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

I showed you that the meaning you force on "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is wrong and how it is misrepresenting the original Greek in order to support your theory. Check that out in #4405. But you totally avoided that lengthy post.

What you miss is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author in the same biblical time-period. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Other similar Scripture shows us the sense of the original Greek. But you also totally ignored that. Check #4385. It is impossible to get you to address the multiple holes in your argument.

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.

keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)

It is God's heart to protect His children. He did it in the OT and He did it in the New Testament. He did it yesterday, He does it today, and He will do it tomorrow. He did not rapture Israel from similar plagues in Egypt. He did not remove Rahab and her family before He destroyed Jericho. No, He preserved His elect and brought them through those fierce times of wrath. He did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. He did not rescue Daniel from the lion’s den. No, He preserved His elect during times of intense persecution by the enemy.
In order for this to have any Merit whatsoever, you'd have to prove somehow in Scripture that God never takes his people out, which is pure bologna.
The baby Jesus was taken away .
the parents fled with Jesus to Egypt to escape the wrath .
it says in Matthew let him that's on a rooftop not come down and take anything but flee. It says he is in a field ,not go back and take anything but flee .
God's people would flee over and over (as in lot).
Lot completely testifies against your deal, because they fled.
they were not there.
they fled to another location, just like in the rapture.
Revelation 14 has Jesus with a sickle harvesting Jewish Messianic Jews, TO HEAVEN, while sitting on a cloud in heaven.THEN the Wrath comes

so he gathered up "pre wrath" in Revelation 14:14. Stop trying to mislead everybody with such glaring omissions
 

rebuilder 454

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Amen bro.


And notwithstanding dispensationalism's incessant attempts to racialize God and His Covenants, race never mattered under the old covenant either.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your



.









You just showcased a race of God's people letting in those outside that race of God's people.
 

rebuilder 454

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Not so. Quite the opposite! I have presented the English and you have rejected it. I have presented the original and you have rejected it.
Who are the 144k.?
Say who they are as presented in scripture without changing what is written.

Dont reject what is written.
Say who they are,and what ethnic tribes they are from.
 
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rebuilder 454

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Dispensationalists give lip service to their golden rule of literal interpretation but their theology totally contradicts it. There is no biblical evidence that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7-year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming. Where is it in Daniel 9? Where is it in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Where is it in Revelation 3:10? Where is it in Revelation 4:1? Nowhere! Not a dot or tittle. There is simply nothing there.

You spiritualize the literal passages and literalize the spiritual passages. Basically, it seems, Revelation should be taken absolutely literal but the countless literal passages throughout Scripture do not mean what they say. What is literal? What is spiritual? The actual wording, the context and repeated teaching of Scripture show us what is so.
When they are counted 2 separate ways. To vividly illustrate who they are and their number, it would be an act of desperation to muddy it up from it's literal meaning.
 

rebuilder 454

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I have already addressed these passages numerous times with you and you have ducked around the rebuttals every time. This is a Pretrib trait. That is because you have to. None of these prove a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period, followed by a third coming of the Lord. You know it! That is why you just hurl out vague references without any quote, full reference or exegesis.

Present your evidence if you have it.
Before the flood.
You have never unpacked it.
Taken before the flood
Watch and be ready before the flood..

Lot taken pre wrath.
LOT REMOVED PREWRATH.
 
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WPM

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In order for this to have any Merit whatsoever, you'd have to prove somehow in Scripture that God never takes his people out, which is pure bologna.
The baby Jesus was taken away .
the parents fled with Jesus to Egypt to escape the wrath .
it says in Matthew let him that's on a rooftop not come down and take anything but flee. It says he is in a field ,not go back and take anything but flee .
God's people would flee over and over (as in lot).
Lot completely testifies against your deal, because they fled.
they were not there.
they fled to another location, just like in the rapture.
Revelation 14 has Jesus with a sickle harvesting Jewish Messianic Jews, TO HEAVEN, while sitting on a cloud in heaven.THEN the Wrath comes

so he gathered up "pre wrath" in Revelation 14:14. Stop trying to mislead everybody with such glaring omissions

More avoidance. More diversion. I refer you back to my avoided post.
 
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WPM

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Who are the 144k.?
Say who they are as presented in scripture without changing what is written.

Dont reject what is written.
Say who they are,and what ethnic tribes they are from.
They are the "firstfruits" of the last days harvest. They are already in.
 

Douggg

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But, what do they not "escape"? They do not "escape" the "SUDDEN destruction" that accompanies the Lord's return. Hello! That is what the text actually says. Stop explaining away the words of Scripture. Pretribs have a major problem with taking the Bible literally. That is because it strongly forbids their doctrine.
I repeat again - they do not escape the great tribulation.

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
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WPM

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I repeat again - they do not escape the great tribulation.

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You have not been able to present any evidence that says the wrath of God is a 7 year trib. All we have is your words.

You have been unable to show in any of these passages that a 7 year trib follows the coming of Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Not true. Quote it.
He does nothing but lie. You can continue talking to him if you want, but I'm not wiling to talk to someone who repeatedly lies about me the way he does. I have to draw the line somewhere and I am drawing the line there.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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He reveals Himself in Scripture before the cross in physical and angelic form. He is God! But He is greater than both.

Genesis 16:11-13: the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Genesis 18:1-3: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

In Genesis 22:15 we see the Lord speaking from heaven. He is there described as an angel. We learn, “And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Genesis 32:24-32: “And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me … And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

Hosea 12:2-5 explains: “The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us. Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.”

Exodus 3:2-6: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 2:1: “And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 6:12-15: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Judges 13:21 says, "the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Isaiah 63:7-9 declares: “I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.”

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?

Revelation 10:1 affirms: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud.

Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
My answer is "the Lord" to all of those questions. I just haven't done a study on this particular topic before personally. It's unfortunate that the Hebrew and Greek words weren't translated as "messenger" instead of "angel" there just to avoid any confusion. But, regardless, those are all talking about the Lord. Good post.

So, with all of this said, could these be talking about Jesus as well?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

It's something to consider.
 
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WPM

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I repeat again - they do not escape the great tribulation.

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I will repeat what i previously presented, and show the parallel usage by Paul, that gives us similar insight:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says:For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return.

After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.
 
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WPM

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Before the flood.
You have never unpacked it.
Taken before the flood
Watch and be ready before the flood..

Lot taken pre wrath.
LOT REMOVED PREWRATH.
I have. You have avoided. That is what Pretribbers do. This thread is testimony to that. Viewers can see that for themselves.

The coming of Christ ushers in the destruction. It is sudden. None escape. The flood of fire will destroy all the wicked after Christ has caught up all His elect. You have no rebuttal to that, apart from your extra-biblical theories.
 

Douggg

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You have not been able to present any evidence that says the wrath of God is a 7 year trib. All we have is your words.

You have been unable to show in any of these passages that a 7 year trib follows the coming of Christ.
I don't believe the full 7 years are tribulation.

You are avoiding the question, I asked you in my post #529...

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 

Douggg

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Our faithfulness will ensure we escape the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.
What about escaping having to go through the great tribulation, which will be 1335 days long (Daniel 12:11-12) ?




vials and trumpets.jpg
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I repeat again - they do not escape the great tribulation.

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Please read that passage more carefully. Notice how Jesus refers there to "that day" which will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.". What day was Jesus referring to there? We have to look at the preceding verses, which you strangely didn't include for context, to find that out.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

So, there it is. Jesus was referring to the day when "they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" which will be when "heaven and earth shall pass away". Which lines up with this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

On "that day", which will come unexpectedly, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then God's wrath will come as "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) by way of fire (2 Peter 3:10-12) "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Luke 21:35) and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). So, "they shall not escape", but we will because we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before His wrath comes down on all of His enemies.
 
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WPM

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I don't believe the full 7 years are tribulation.

You are avoiding the question, I asked you in my post #529...

In Luke 21:34-36, what do the ones counted worthy "escape" ?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Can you please read what I wrote before making these such claims? I already showed you. They escape the approaching wholesale destruction of the corrupted created order that accompanies Christ return - namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.
 

WPM

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What about escaping having to go through the great tribulation, which will be 1335 days long (Daniel 12:11-12) ?




View attachment 47815
There is no tribulation mentioned before the one and only coming of Jesus Christ. You (or no Pretrib) has been able to show that. That is because it does not exist. It is in your imagination.
 
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