The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Keraz]

keras, make a basic sequence of events, but not in chart form,

I have posted before; this scripturally correct and logical list of the imminent end times events. It was rejected and ignored.
Maybe this time someone will see the truth of the sequence as given to us in all of the Prophetic Word.

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a massive explosion on the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18
It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish some of the modern infrastructure.
The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 15 to 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in: all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:1-14 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19, Matthew 24:14

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, of 10 regions, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out by the Lord and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

A short time later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. Daniel 9:27
This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world, for the first half.

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 This starts the Great Tribulation; the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’, are the Christian people who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32 Those who do are mentioned in: Isaiah 28:14-18\
They are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:13-16

The gathering of every Christian Israelite of God, from every place on earth; all those who have kept faithful, to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17
The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus with the Christian peoples and the resurrected martyrs. Revelation 20:1-6, Zechariah 14:16-21

The final attack against Jesus in the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire., Revelation 20:7-10

The Great White Throne judgement,. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15

and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Revelation 21:1-8
Then Eternity; Revelation 7:15-17, Revelation 21:9-27, Revelation 22:1-5, Daniel 12:2
Ref: logostelos.info

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Tell me why I shouldnt be watching for my Lord, Jesus? Or tell me what is your point really supposed to be?

When we're told to watch you seem to think it means to look up in the sky to watch for the imminent coming of Jesus. But, is that that it means? No, I don't believe so.

Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. 35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

It should be clear from these passages that when we're told to watch, it doesn't mean we are being told to watch for Jesus in the sky, it means we need to "watch out that no one deceives" us and that we need to be going about our Master Jesus's business because "it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.". If we're just sitting around waiting and watching for Him to come then we are not going about His business.

This lines up with what Paul said here:

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, like Jesus, Paul talked about being careful to be spiritually awake and sober while "putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet" in anticipation of the coming of Christ. Which means to watch out that we are not deceived because we are called to be "children of the light" and to avoid being in spiritual darkness "like others, who are asleep".

 

[Douggg]

I have posted before; this scripturally correct and logical list of the imminent end times events. It was rejected and ignored.
Maybe this time someone will see the truth of the sequence as given to us in all of the Prophetic Word.

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a massive explosion on the suns surface. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18
It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish some of the modern infrastructure.
The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 15 to 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in: all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, Revelation 7:1-14 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19, Matthew 24:14

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, of 10 regions, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out by the Lord and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

A short time later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. Daniel 9:27
This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world, for the first half.

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 This starts the Great Tribulation; the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’, are the Christian people who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32 Those who do are mentioned in: Isaiah 28:14-18\
They are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:13-16

The gathering of every Christian Israelite of God, from every place on earth; all those who have kept faithful, to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17
The 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus with the Christian peoples and the resurrected martyrs. Revelation 20:1-6, Zechariah 14:16-21

The final attack against Jesus in the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire., Revelation 20:7-10

The Great White Throne judgement,. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15

and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Revelation 21:1-8
Then Eternity; Revelation 7:15-17, Revelation 21:9-27, Revelation 22:1-5, Daniel 12:2
Ref: logostelos.info

keras, if the (Soon to happen) solar event does not happen as you interpret the bible, then that throws off the rest of your scenario, correct ?

 

[Keraz]

keras, if the (Soon to happen) solar event does not happen as you interpret the bible, then that throws off the rest of your scenario, correct ?

Not necessarily. The great and terrible Day of the Lord is coming and it will be the event which commences all the end times Prophesies.
I confidently believe the Lord will use the sun to literally fulfil all the graphically described effects of that Day. Isaiah 39:26a confirms it.

Note in spaceweather,com, how the sun is currently in an active phase. Scientists warn of a big CME, that could cause devastation.

 

[jeffweeder]

All of these passages point to the last and final Day of Lord when Christ comes the second time in wrath when the Day of His grace comes to an end.

Great to see you back Roger. I was thinking about you yesterday and here you are

 

[WPM]

Great to see you back Roger. I was thinking about you yesterday and here you are

I was also, a few days ago. Must be meant to be back!!!

Truth is so refreshing to read!

 

[jeffweeder]

I was also, a few days ago. Must be meant to be back!!!

Truth is so refreshing to read!

Matthew 18:19
“Again I say to you, that if two believers on earth agree [that is, are of one mind, in harmony] about anything that they ask [within the will of God], it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

 

[Douggg]

Not necessarily. The great and terrible Day of the Lord is coming and it will be the event which commences all the end times Prophesies.
I confidently believe the Lord will use the sun to literally fulfil all the graphically described effects of that Day. Isaiah 39:26a confirms it.

Note in spaceweather,com, how the sun is currently in an active phase. Scientists warn of a big CME, that could cause devastation.

keras, if there is no solar flare event to wipe out the current population of Israel, then there will not be a mass movement of Christians into the vacated land to form a new nation of Beulah. It seems to me that your scenario ends at that point.

 

[Keraz]

keras, if there is no solar flare event to wipe out the current population of Israel, then there will not be a mass movement of Christians into the vacated land to form a new nation of Beulah. It seems to me that your scenario ends at that point.

It seems to me that your end times scenario doesn't even get started!
You commence things with the signing of the treaty in Daniel 9:27. Which is impossible as the two signatories are not in place yet and it requires a dramatic worldwide change for them to be in place.

 

[Douggg]

It seems to me that your end times scenario doesn't even get started!
You commence things with the signing of the treaty in Daniel 9:27. Which is impossible as the two signatories are not in place yet and it requires a dramatic worldwide change for them to be in place.

No, not a dramatic worldwide change.

Are you referring to Israel and the little horn person, leader of ten other EU leaders ?

If so, Israel is in place. But the little horn person is yet to be identified, nor the ten other EU leaders.

So, once the little horn person (and the ten other EU leaders) is established. Then Gog/Magog. Then the little horn person becomes the prince that shall come into the middle east. Then is anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah, the Antichrist. Then he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle as required by Moses, to begin the 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

 

[MA2444]

When we're told to watch you seem to think it means to look up in the sky to watch for the imminent coming of Jesus. But, is that that it means? No, I don't believe so.

Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

So in other words when I said I just checked at the window and it's a clear sky so the rapture isnt happening today...you thought I was being 100% serious?! Not that scripture doesnt tell us in a few places, look up for thy redemption draweth nigh, and stuff like that so it isnt totally a joke. Just some lite humor towards you and you humor detector is malfunctioning I guess? And why not you dont seem to be able to understand anything I (or scripture) says.

It really means, watch out in the sky that no one deceives you? That's a good one. Because the deceivers will be coming in the clouds too?!

What you dont get for real is that I dont have to check at the window. Why do I need to get up from my chair and look out the window when the kingdom of heaven is at hand? The Holy Spirit dwells within me, so who needs to look out the window?

But I really do look out the window sometimes. With Jesus on my heart and looking at the clouds with those scriptures on my mind...I may be acting like an idiot to you, but it really only serves to demonstrate my eagerness for the Lord's return.

When the Lord shows up (whenever), he finds one guy staring out the wondow hoping Jesus will come into view (like an idiot?!) and one guy relaxing and not watching at all...who do you think the Lord will be more pleased with? The idiot, or the "smart" human who lives to denounce that people should watch for the Lord?

Can we get back to scripture now? Or a few insults first or what?

 

[MA2444]

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Hey, my namesake verse! I like that one! So you must be ready. Expecting Him. Like a Bride who is eagerly awaiting her Grooms return. Oh she acts like an idiot about that guy! Checking at the window 20 times a day. Every noise or bright light from outside, she gets up and looks! It might be Him!

How does this not make the rapture imminent? If this has to happen or that has to happen before He comes back, then He couldnt come at an hour that we do not expect Him...like early perhaps? Sooner than you thought? Hmm.

 

[MA2444]

So, like Jesus, Paul talked about being careful to be spiritually awake and sober while "putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet" in anticipation of the coming of Christ. Which means to watch out that we are not deceived because we are called to be "children of the light" and to avoid being in spiritual darkness "like others, who are asleep".

Yeah, I'll go along with that. It doesnt make the raprure posttrib though. You guys keep asking for the scripture that says the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel. And I didnt want to retype all that stuff for you that I had already typed when I already knew that it woukld be ridiculed by you. WHy waste the rime? It's in the Galiliean wedding thread I said. Go and find my verses that I did exegete fairly well for you. Then you may know my position...? But you guys wont do that either, so I did you a favor. I looked them up for you and can copy paste them here for your perusal.

But dont you guys start saying that no scripture says those things because it's not in one verse explicitly. When you read a book, or watch a movie mystery on Tv, you get fed some information and then draw conclusions from that info. Whodunit? Whenisit? Howlongisit? da da da. You couldnt write some of the things that you and not have any comprehension at all. You can read. You know very well what drawing conclusions is all about. So it would be edifying to the discussion for you guys to not make those childish assertions. The parting of the Red Sea isnt stated in one verse, so it didnt happen...Lol I've told you this before and sometimes it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall. I am not the only one who has told you this either...

That said,

From The Galiliean Wedding thread: Page 55/post 1094

The Great Trib.

Let's look at more of 1 Thessalonians 5, shall we?
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don’t really need to write you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
3 When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
4 But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.[b]
5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.
11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.../NLT

v3 He comes as a thief in the night, by surprise (no one knows the day or hour)
v4&5 we are children of Light, the church. Thr Bride.
v6 So we are on guard and watching!Not asleep like posttribbers.
v7&8 This is the night time at least coming on, look around you at the world!
v9 So God chose to Save us and take us out of it (like He talks about in 1 Thess 4
v10 Christ paid a High Price for us, that we may live. He loves us so saves from the wrath that He brings upon Israel & the world.
v11 This is Encouraging! It's Perfectly Ok To Watch For The LORD Early.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g]
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

V14 When Jesus comes for us in the (pretrib) rapture, He will bring with Him, all those who have died in Christ since the beginning. David, Moses, Paul, all of them.
V15-16-17 People have died in Christ since then and when jesus shows up, their graves will be opened and they will transformed in the twinkling of an eye to reunite with their spirit into a new spiritual body. A resurrection body like He had when He was Resurrected on the first Easter morning. We dont meet the Lord in the air before them, we all go at once.

Caught up in the clouds. is the translation for Harpazo in Greek or Rapture in the Latin Vulgate in V17.

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)​

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

www.blueletterbible.org

You see, it is two events. One time He comes in the air and we meet Him in the clouds. He doesn't come to Earth.
Then after The Great Trib is His so called 2nd Coming where He brings us with Him and puts comes to the Earth at the Mt of Olives. and puts an end to wickedness and wicked people. (Then the Millenium begins).../

There we go, let's start here, and please try to be able to draw a conclusion from what you have read. Not from what you know already, but aside from all that. Just the text, just a conclusion. If you add up a large list of numbers it will give you an answer eventually. Once you do the math and draw your conclusion, so it must be...

 

[WPM]

Yeah, I'll go along with that. It doesnt make the raprure posttrib though. You guys keep asking for the scripture that says the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel. And I didnt want to retype all that stuff for you that I had already typed when I already knew that it woukld be ridiculed by you. WHy waste the rime? It's in the Galiliean wedding thread I said. Go and find my verses that I did exegete fairly well for you. Then you may know my position...? But you guys wont do that either, so I did you a favor. I looked them up for you and can copy paste them here for your perusal.

But dont you guys start saying that no scripture says those things because it's not in one verse explicitly. When you read a book, or watch a movie mystery on Tv, you get fed some information and then draw conclusions from that info. Whodunit? Whenisit? Howlongisit? da da da. You couldnt write some of the things that you and not have any comprehension at all. You can read. You know very well what drawing conclusions is all about. So it would be edifying to the discussion for you guys to not make those childish assertions. The parting of the Red Sea isnt stated in one verse, so it didnt happen...Lol I've told you this before and sometimes it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall. I am not the only one who has told you this either...

That said,

From The Galiliean Wedding thread: Page 55/post 1094

The Great Trib.

Let's look at more of 1 Thessalonians 5, shall we?
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don’t really need to write you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
3 When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
4 But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.[b]
5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.
11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.../NLT

v3 He comes as a thief in the night, by surprise (no one knows the day or hour)
v4&5 we are children of Light, the church. Thr Bride.
v6 So we are on guard and watching!Not asleep like posttribbers.
v7&8 This is the night time at least coming on, look around you at the world!
v9 So God chose to Save us and take us out of it (like He talks about in 1 Thess 4
v10 Christ paid a High Price for us, that we may live. He loves us so saves from the wrath that He brings upon Israel & the world.
v11 This is Encouraging! It's Perfectly Ok To Watch For The LORD Early.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g]
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

V14 When Jesus comes for us in the (pretrib) rapture, He will bring with Him, all those who have died in Christ since the beginning. David, Moses, Paul, all of them.
V15-16-17 People have died in Christ since then and when jesus shows up, their graves will be opened and they will transformed in the twinkling of an eye to reunite with their spirit into a new spiritual body. A resurrection body like He had when He was Resurrected on the first Easter morning. We dont meet the Lord in the air before them, we all go at once.

Caught up in the clouds. is the translation for Harpazo in Greek or Rapture in the Latin Vulgate in V17.

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)​

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

www.blueletterbible.org

You see, it is two events. One time He comes in the air and we meet Him in the clouds. He doesn't come to Earth.
Then after The Great Trib is His so called 2nd Coming where He brings us with Him and puts comes to the Earth at the Mt of Olives. and puts an end to wickedness and wicked people. (Then the Millenium begins).../

There we go, let's start here, and please try to be able to draw a conclusion from what you have read. Not from what you know already, but aside from all that. Just the text, just a conclusion. If you add up a large list of numbers it will give you an answer eventually. Once you do the math and draw your conclusion, so it must be...

1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib. All it proves is that there is a catching away of the saints when Jesus comes. We both agree that there is a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4. That is not the issue. But you force a 7-years trib into it and a 3rd coming that does not exist in the text.

So:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
• There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

What there is in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Posttrib/Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

 

[MA2444]

1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib. All it proves is that there is a catching away of the saints when Jesus comes. We both agree that there is a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4. That is not the issue. But you force a 7-years trib into it and a 3rd coming that does not exist in the text.

So:

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
• There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
• There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

What there is in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Posttrib/Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

I'll uh, take that into consideration, but as I said before, if you wont hear all of it then how can you draw conclusions about what's being said? There are different aspects to the scenario that you wont get unless you read more. If you cant do that, then...have a nice day?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great to see you back Roger. I was thinking about you yesterday and here you are

I guess that's what it takes to get him back here. You just need to think about him. :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey, my namesake verse! I like that one! So you must be ready. Expecting Him. Like a Bride who is eagerly awaiting her Grooms return. Oh she acts like an idiot about that guy! Checking at the window 20 times a day. Every noise or bright light from outside, she gets up and looks! It might be Him!

How does this not make the rapture imminent? If this has to happen or that has to happen before He comes back, then He couldnt come at an hour that we do not expect Him...like early perhaps? Sooner than you thought? Hmm.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Again, the watching is in relation to deception and keeping from being in spiritual darkness. As I've shown you from passages like 2 Thess 2:1-12 and Matthew 24:10-13, there is a mass falling away from the faith that was prophesied to occur first before the rapture. So, how could His return be imminent until that happens? We should be watching for that to happen and once it does then we can know His return is imminent. I think that time period has already started (Satan's little season), so I believe His return is imminent at this point. But, it wasn't imminent before that. Let me know if you are still not understanding my point.

 

[WPM]

I'll uh, take that into consideration, but as I said before, if you wont hear all of it then how can you draw conclusions about what's being said? There are different aspects to the scenario that you wont get unless you read more. If you cant do that, then...have a nice day?

I have and have presented that but you constantly avoid. That speaks volumes to the Pretrib argument.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So in other words when I said I just checked at the window and it's a clear sky so the rapture isnt happening today...you thought I was being 100% serious?!

How would I know? Based on other things you've said, I had no reason to think you were joking. Are you never serious then? How can I know when you are being serious?

Not that scripture doesnt tell us in a few places, look up for thy redemption draweth nigh, and stuff like that so it isnt totally a joke. Just some lite humor towards you and you humor detector is malfunctioning I guess? And why not you dont seem to be able to understand anything I (or scripture) says.

I understand scripture just fine, but your words are very far below scripture. You do not communicate clearly. That is not my fault.

It really means, watch out in the sky that no one deceives you? That's a good one. Because the deceivers will be coming in the clouds too?!

Where did you say anything about watching to not be deceived? Am I supposed to be able to just know what you believe even when you don't explain it?

But I really do look out the window sometimes. With Jesus on my heart and looking at the clouds with those scriptures on my mind...I may be acting like an idiot to you, but it really only serves to demonstrate my eagerness for the Lord's return.

Good grief, dude. I would never criticize someone for being excited about the Lord's return. That's one reason I can't stand preterism. They tend to focus far more on 70 AD than Christ's glorious return. You clearly don't know me at all. And I mean not at all. Not even close. You are the one who doesn't understand anything I or scripture says. It's very ironic for you to say that to me.

When the Lord shows up (whenever), he finds one guy staring out the wondow hoping Jesus will come into view (like an idiot?!) and one guy relaxing and not watching at all...who do you think the Lord will be more pleased with? The idiot, or the "smart" human who lives to denounce that people should watch for the Lord?

Can we get back to scripture now? Or a few insults first or what?

Why are you insulted when YOU are the one who just wants to act like a comedian all the time, making it difficult to know when you are being serious and when you are joking?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, I'll go along with that. It doesnt make the raprure posttrib though. You guys keep asking for the scripture that says the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel. And I didnt want to retype all that stuff for you that I had already typed when I already knew that it woukld be ridiculed by you. WHy waste the rime? It's in the Galiliean wedding thread I said. Go and find my verses that I did exegete fairly well for you. Then you may know my position...? But you guys wont do that either, so I did you a favor. I looked them up for you and can copy paste them here for your perusal.

But dont you guys start saying that no scripture says those things because it's not in one verse explicitly. When you read a book, or watch a movie mystery on Tv, you get fed some information and then draw conclusions from that info. Whodunit? Whenisit? Howlongisit? da da da. You couldnt write some of the things that you and not have any comprehension at all. You can read. You know very well what drawing conclusions is all about. So it would be edifying to the discussion for you guys to not make those childish assertions. The parting of the Red Sea isnt stated in one verse, so it didnt happen...Lol I've told you this before and sometimes it's like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall. I am not the only one who has told you this either...

Dude, will you please grow up? You talk like a middle schooler. You ramble on and on while saying nothing. Stop wasting your time saying things that add nothing to the discussion. It's very hard to take you seriously when you do that. Especially when you attribute things someone else has said to me. I have never asked you "for the scripture that says the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel.". Not once.

While I would agree with the notion that not being able to provide any explicit scripture to support your view can show a weakness in your view, I certainly understand how something can be strongly implied in scripture even if it's not explicitly indicated. So, I am open to you showing me how scripture implicitly teaches your view without demanding you show me where it's taught explicitly. Okay? Do you think you can stop making assumptions about me based on things you either imagine me saying or based on things other people have said?

That said,

From The Galiliean Wedding thread: Page 55/post 1094

The Great Trib.

Let's look at more of 1 Thessalonians 5, shall we?
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters,[a] we don’t really need to write you.
2 For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
3 When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
4 But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.[b]
5 For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
8 But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.
11 So encourage each other and build each other up, just as you are already doing.../NLT

v3 He comes as a thief in the night, by surprise (no one knows the day or hour)
v4&5 we are children of Light, the church. Thr Bride.
v6 So we are on guard and watching!Not asleep like posttribbers.

I just have to stop you here. Do you want to be taken seriously or not? Comments like this don't help at all. How exactly am I and other post-tribbers asleep? Do you understand that Paul was contrasting saved people with unsaved people there? Those who are asleep are in spiritual darkness and are lost. So, this comes across as you calling post-tribbers like me lost and unsaved people. That you are saying we're not Christians. Stop this nonsense if you want to be taken seriously.

v7&8 This is the night time at least coming on, look around you at the world!
v9 So God chose to Save us and take us out of it (like He talks about in 1 Thess 4
v10 Christ paid a High Price for us, that we may live. He loves us so saves from the wrath that He brings upon Israel & the world.
v11 This is Encouraging! It's Perfectly Ok To Watch For The LORD Early.

Paul is not saying to watch for the Lord there, he's saying the same thing Jesus said in Matthew 24. We have to watch that we're not deceived and watch that we are saying in the spiritual light while avoiding being in spiritual darkness like unsaved people are.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g]
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died[h] will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.../NLT

V14 When Jesus comes for us in the (pretrib) rapture, He will bring with Him, all those who have died in Christ since the beginning. David, Moses, Paul, all of them.
V15-16-17 People have died in Christ since then and when jesus shows up, their graves will be opened and they will transformed in the twinkling of an eye to reunite with their spirit into a new spiritual body. A resurrection body like He had when He was Resurrected on the first Easter morning. We dont meet the Lord in the air before them, we all go at once.

Caught up in the clouds. is the translation for Harpazo in Greek or Rapture in the Latin Vulgate in V17.

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).​

www.blueletterbible.org

You see, it is two events. One time He comes in the air and we meet Him in the clouds. He doesn't come to Earth.

No, it is not two events. Where does Paul ever say that Jesus comes to earth? Nowhere. You're not understanding that 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 is one narrative about the day Jesus will come from heaven.

Be honest with me here. Would you think the following verse is not about what will happen when the rapture occurs if you didn't interpret it with doctrinal bias?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I don't know about you, but a description of "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" reminds me immediately of this:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then after The Great Trib is His so called 2nd Coming where He brings us with Him and puts comes to the Earth at the Mt of Olives. and puts an end to wickedness and wicked people. (Then the Millenium begins).../

There we go, let's start here, and please try to be able to draw a conclusion from what you have read. Not from what you know already, but aside from all that. Just the text, just a conclusion. If you add up a large list of numbers it will give you an answer eventually. Once you do the math and draw your conclusion, so it must be...

If there was a "Great Trib" between what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 5:2-3, then why didn't Paul mention it? The onus is on you to explain that. Him not mentioning that fits my view perfectly because I don't believe in a time period called "The Great Trib" occurring between what Paul described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and what he described in 1 Thess 5:2-3.