Studying the Bible without thinking critically

[Nancy]

I will have to come back to this tomorrow, goodnight.

...they are not just covered, they are removed as far as the East is to the West?

"If their sins are gone, they are sinless. Make up your mind. Do they continue to sin, or do they refrain from sin? Do they walk after the Spirit, or do they fulfill the lust of the flesh? Take your pick.
Walking in the flesh and falling in the flesh (or sin) are two different things. The first is a person who has not repented and continues to walk in the flesh, maybe even to the point of a seared conscience; the second one picks themselves up, repents and say's, "I'm dead to that", brushes themselves off and moves on in the Spirit."

The Law was a schoolmaster or a shadow.... Out with the Old and in with the new...He made the Old obsolete- pertaining to achieving everlasting life/salvation He sure did, no?

"No doubt about it. The schoolmaster is done away with, but here again this is only for those who walk after the Spirit. For them there is no need for a sacrifice any longer. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system. The schoolmaster (Greek paidagogos,) had nothing to do with teaching the child, but only making sure the lessons were learned. Too many Christians have been duped into believing that the schoolmaster refers to the Mosaic law when it refers to the "law that was added because of transgressions". Here again, you're making my points for me as the end of the schoolmaster comes about when there is no more sin. The schoolmaster becomes redundant when the student had learned their lessons."

So then, the person walking after the flesh is still in need of the "schoolmaster, which would mean, a sacrifice is still needed because of their sin but...there remains NO other sacrifice offered to them OTHER than Christ. Bulls and goats haven't done the trick. Not following the rest of this paragraph, teaching the child...

"... meaning that it covers whatever sins are committed in the future. This is the case for all who have not yet received Christ. it is applicable to those who have accepted Christ as their savior, and covers their sins as long as they live, but when they are made a new creature in Christ, the schoolmaster becomes redundant as they no longer sin with a heart created to keep God's commandments."

I would say the schoolmaster becomes redundant if the students continue on with the milk only.


To be honest here, maintaining "complete" trust in Him can be hard at times.

"This can only be the case under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, his "yoke is easy, his burden light". Under the New Covenant, there is nothing left to do because God has done everything for us. "it is finished"." <---- Agreed.

"God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies"

Yes, there is always an out that God has for us to walk away from sin, every time. It is most fierce when it occurs within the mind.

"Yes, the mind fabricates a separate identity. It is nothing more than an abstract construction. It isn't real. As Paul says, "not me, but Christ in me". As soon as one comes to realize this fact, the deception ends."

Between Satan stuffing our minds continually with thoughts,sin, and the flesh, we have 3 things to fight against all the time. We can do this only with Gods Spirit within us. No honest Christian EVER 'wants' to sin but sin they do, whether they think they walk as Jesus did or not. It's easy to make a show of being "sinless" from the outward appearance but, it's the thoughts that get ya! Nobody but God can know those, and yourself of course.

nancy said: and we will not win every single battle...

"If that's what you insist on, God will grant it to you."

It's not a question of insisting on defeat at all.
"... simply proving my argument which is that there are those who must fight to keep God's commandments, and there are those who have entered into the New Covenant, and can only keep God's commandments perfectly." <---I was referring to spiritual warfare when I said "fight". And, yes, we fight against sin! So, that actually IS fighting to keep His commandments. I do not believe a Christian, despite being born again, will ever become completely sinless in this world.


"The old covenant is a shadow, a schoolmaster...it points to what sin is to God.
No. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system, and it is only done away for those who no longer sin. Paul quite clearly points out that those who "walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh" therefore the schoolmaster has become redundant."

Seems what would make the schoolmaster redundant is for it's students to keep sucking their thumbs and drinking only milk. :)

I don't understand how you are separating the Law from the sacrificial system. They seem to belong pretty close together to me. And, again, not sure where you are going with the rest of the paragraph.

So, can we let's make a truce here? You believe what is in your heart to believe, and I will do the same. I'm not into the long posts, I prefer them a bit shorter as now, I will only have a few minutes left to see what other new Alerts are waiting.
God Bless and it was one of the nicest back and forth convo's I can recall
Merry Christmas

 

[shnarkle]

Oh okay good, lets strike most of the bible,

Why?

and definitely gal 2:9-21.

Let's look at that, shall we?

" For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Here's the first accusation that is in need of some evidence. Where do we find any evidence that Peter is compelling anyone to live as a Jew? Even more to the point, just because those of "the circumcision" are claiming that one can only be justified by living as a Jew, this doesn't necessarily mean Peter is as well. Paul seems to be nitpicking at Peter simply because he isn't making a stink about Jews keeping the Mosaic law. We know that this got him into a lot of trouble as well. People didn't understand what he was really saying. The circumcision thought he was saying that the Mosaic law didn't need to be observed anymore. Paul categorically denies this, and instead points out that he is simply pointing out that no one is justified by keeping the law. Look at the next verse:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Paul was accused of condoning blatant disobedience to magnify God's grace. He denies this accusation, and not only that, but points out that there is no difference between the Jew and the gentile when it comes to the law except of course that they were entrusted the oracles of God which were then given to the New Testament church (See Acts 7:38):

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Did you catch that? Did you notice how he just admitted that it is beneficial to be circumcised? Do you think that might have been a good reason why he went and had Timothy circumcised?

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Note that it doesn't matter if you decide to keep or disobey God's laws, God's' promises are not contingent upon or negated by your disobedience, but upon his promise.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

So Paul admits that he is in no way claiming that the Mosaic law is done away at all. This presents a problem because I see no place anywhere in the bible where Peter suggests that it is acceptable to ignore or negate God's commandments either. Instead Paul is accusing Peter of ignoring God's commandments. This can't be right. In fact, what we have from Luke shows that it has been revealed to Peter by Christ himself that he is not to refer to gentiles as "unclean" anymore. He has been told that it is unlawful for him to associate with gentiles. This is according to the corrupted oral tradition, not the Mosaic law. So I still don't see any evidence that Peter has done anything wrong yet. If so, where? So far, I see Paul accusing Peter of doing basically wat he was accused of doing himself. Makes me wonder what's really going on. Perhaps you know something I don't, if that's the case, please be so kind as to show me where you're getting this privileged information from.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Note that it is the Mosaic law that places everyone under the penalty of sin.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God.

Did you notice that he says EVERY mouth may be stopped and ALL the world is guilty? By what standard can that be the case if not the Mosaic law? We know that the bible defines sin as transgression of the law, and the only law they're referring to is the Mosaic law. Here's where it gets real though. Notice what he says in verse 25:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Notice that Christ's sacrifice only covers remissions of "sins that are past". The author of the Hebrews makes this same claim, but he's a bit more specific. Notice what he says:

Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were UNDER THE FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Notice who are called. Did you notice that only those who are called under the first testament have their transgressions redeemed? Do you see how the new testament doesn't redeem sin? There can be no sin under the new covenant.

Hebrews10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

I choose to believe that there is no sin rather than to look at it as a possibility. The reason being that if that's the case, then those who do are damned. I also come to this conclusion based upon the fact that God says he gives a new heart so that his commandments may be kept. He doesn't need to do that so that they might keep his commandments because that's how it works under the old covenant.

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Notice here that the terms are the EXACT SAME for the Jew and the Gentile. Note also that the law is "established" which means that it is made to stand.

 

[shnarkle]

Walking in the flesh and falling in the flesh (or sin) are two different things. The first is a person who has not repented and continues to walk in the flesh, maybe even to the point of a seared conscience; the second one picks themselves up, repents and say's, "I'm dead to that", brushes themselves off and moves on in the Spirit."

That's your belief, but it clearly isn't biblical. Here's what Paul says: "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Note that he says you can't do what you want or will because that will never work. That's how the Old Covenant operated. It was all by will and effort. The New Covenant doesn't operate under those parameters at all, but exclusively by faith alone insured by God's promises.

Note again what he says in Romans: "
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

He's quite clear in distinguishing who fulfills the lust of the flesh and who walks after the Spirit here. It is only those who walk after the Spirit that are able to do so because of Christ's sacrifice.

" 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Which category do you fall into? Do you see the difference yet?

" 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Notice who is not subject to the law of God. Note that it is NOT the New Testament believer who is no longer subject to God's law, but the carnally minded.

"8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

See the difference yet?

So then, the person walking after the flesh is still in need of the "schoolmaster, which would mean, a sacrifice is still needed because of their sin

No. he's pointing out that Christ's sacrifice covers the sins committed under the Old Covenant.

but...there remains NO other sacrifice offered to them OTHER than Christ.

Quite true!

Bulls and goats haven't done the trick.

They never could. They were never meant to. They could only point to Christ's sacrifice which is the only sacrifice that will ever cover anyone's sins committed under the Old Covenant which stipulated that one must make a commitment to enter into a covenant relationship with God, and to keep God's commandments as best you can. Those are NOT the conditions of the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant, you don't choose to keep God's law, God chooses you. You don't keep it by "will or effort" Rom.9:16, but "by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves...etc".

Not following the rest of this paragraph, teaching the child...

A schoolmaster is a principle in a school. In Greek society, the child was placed under the care of a slave who monitored the child just like a modern day principle or administrator does in a school. Sometimes they're called "headmaster" as well. They serve in an administrative capacity. Paul says the same thing when he talks about the "ministration of death" he's not talking about the Mosaic law but the conditions under which it was administered. Moses administered the law. His face was covered, not the law.

I would say the schoolmaster becomes redundant if the students continue on with the milk only.

A Pharisee is not on milk. They're on the meat, but regardless, one can comprehend the gospel completely and be no closer to salvation than Satan who comprehends it better than you or I ever will. He's damned, and he knows the whole story. One's intellectual understanding of the law is useless if one is not born again.

"there are those who have entered into the New Covenant, and can only keep God's commandments perfectly." <---I was referring to spiritual warfare when I said "fight".

So was I. What's your point?

And, yes, we fight against sin! So, that actually IS fighting to keep His commandments. I do not believe a Christian, despite being born again, will ever become completely sinless in this world.

I used to believe the same thing until I learned that the bible doesn't teach that. My beliefs were false, and unbiblical.

I don't understand how you are separating the Law from the sacrificial system.

God gave commandments to Moses. Those ten were expanded into what became known at the Mosaic law. There are 613 commandments that are summed up as the ten commandments which were placed INSIDE the Ark of the covenant. Paul talks about the "handwriting of ordinances that were against us". He is not referring to the ten commandments, but the scroll that was placed BESIDE the Ark of the Covenant and referred to when one of the commandments was transgressed (see Deut. 31:26).

I am distinguishing between the commandments that were given for our benefit and the law that was added to deal with the transgressions of those commandments. If you feel that they are one and the same then you have a serious problem in figuring out how to reconcile such contradictory statements as these:

(each number corresponds to a corresponding number below)
THE GREAT MORAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).

THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
2.
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15.
16.
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).

 

[shnarkle]

Here they are side by side for easier comparison:


THE GREAT MORAL LAW vs. THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).
1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
2.
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).
3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).
4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).
5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.
7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).
8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).
9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)
10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).
11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).
12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.
13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).
14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).
15.
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).
16.
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).
17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).

 

[A_Man]

To keep the law perfectly, you would need to never have anger in your heart. To never have anger in your heart, you would need to be completely without any pride or self interest.

God has wrath. Paul wrote in your anger do not sin.

 

[shnarkle]

God has wrath. Paul wrote in your anger do not sin.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with that, but there's something to that in that God poured his wrath out onto Christ who must therefore pour it out onto the damned. Christ will not just contain it forever. His righteous indignation and wrath must be poured out eventually. After all, that's what it's for, right? He also says, Vengeance is mine so we can leave it up to him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I choose to believe that there is no sin rather than to look at it as a possibility.

You can choose to believe there is no sin possible after receiving the Holy Spirit all you want, but to have anger in your heart is murder and to even have thoughts is to have already committed adultery. So you are choosing to believe something that is not grounded in reality. (Or in honest humility.)

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't understand a thing you said, despite repeated attempts.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God has wrath. Paul wrote in your anger do not sin.

Yes, he wrote that. Paul was always writing instruction and encouragement. And he was very wise.

I think the point you are trying to make is that it is possible to be angry yet not have it be murder? That would require a discussion on the "without cause" portion of what Jesus said.

By the way, I don't remember meeting you yet, so hello, and I hope you had a good and peaceful Christmas!

 

[brakelite]

Yes, I read the 3 passages. None of them said that I keep Gods law perfectly.

From Ellen G White
Ezekiel 36:26
You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it? It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it.{SC 49}

 

[bbyrd009]

His righteous indignation and wrath must be poured out eventually.

Who told you that you were naked?
Yah is Love

God poured his wrath out onto Christ

it was Caiaphas who told the jews that it would be better that one die for all, so i wouldnt be writing that in stone just yet

Did you catch that? Did you notice how he just admitted that it is beneficial to be circumcised? Do you think that might have been a good reason why he went and had Timothy circumcised?

no, bc the reason Timothy was circumcized was made plain already; to remove a stumbling block for them, so that they could hear Timothy? And fwiw Paul did not just admit that it was beneficial to be ritually circumcized either imo, as can be seen later? Do i need to Quote it? Seems you are seizing on the one and forgetting the other here, wadr. Same at "cannot sin" i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

The first is a person who has not repented and continues to walk in the flesh, maybe even to the point of a seared conscience; the second one picks themselves up, repents and say's, "I'm dead to that", brushes themselves off and moves on in the Spirit."

sounded pretty good to me!
No Scripture for this? lol, wanna bet?

 

[brakelite]

You can choose to believe there is no sin possible after receiving the Holy Spirit all you want, but to have anger in your heart is murder and to even have thoughts is to have already committed adultery. So you are choosing to believe something that is not grounded in reality. (Or in honest humility.)

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't understand a thing you said, despite repeated attempts.

No, being angry is not necessarily murder. Jesus said do not be angry without a cause. One can be angry and not sin. Was Jesus murdering those shopkeepers in the temple when he stormed through them overturning their tables, it wasn't He angry?
Do you understand the expression you are what you believe? Now if what you believe is based on your own imagination, then that would be presumption. But if based on God's declaration... To not believe it you are calling God a liar.
KJV 1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

KJV 2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

I don't think @shnarkle is advocating perfect sinlessness, because that would be encouraging the readers to start judging themselves by their performance... He is simply asking us to read the Bible and believe what God says..

 

[shnarkle]

You can choose to believe there is no sin possible after receiving the Holy Spirit all you want, but to have anger in your heart is murder and to even have thoughts is to have already committed adultery. So you are choosing to believe something that is not grounded in reality. (Or in honest humility.)

You're ignoring what I've posted. I'm not referring to those who have murder in their hearts. I'm referring to those God has given a new heart to keep his commandments in their hearts. Do you understand the difference? If you think one can receive the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit can dwell with a heart that conceives murder, then you are reading a different bible than I am. In fact, that's the unforgivable sin. To have the Holy Spirit dwelling within one's heart, and to then engage in sin is blasphemy.

 

[bbyrd009]

Note that it doesn't matter if you decide to keep or disobey God's laws, God's' promises are not contingent upon or negated by your disobedience

not true imo, as can be demonstrated in many places

So Paul admits that he is in no way claiming that the Mosaic law is done away at all.

which is it, snarkle? lol

That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant.

srsly?
And here i thougt the OC involved animal sacrifice and stuff, hmm

 

[shnarkle]

No, being angry is not necessarily murder. Jesus said do not be angry without a cause. One can be angry and not sin. Was Jesus murdering those shopkeepers in the temple when he stormed through them overturning their tables, it wasn't He angry?
Do you understand the expression you are what you believe? Now if what you believe is based on your own imagination, then that would be presumption. But if based on God's declaration... To not believe it you are calling God a liar.
KJV 1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

KJV 2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The supreme irony is that people routinely will tell me that they can't see what I'm talking about. John and Peter are pointing out the reality, yet Christians choose to ignore it. The flesh loves to sin too much to let it go, and we simply go along with it. We just indulge in hopeless resignation to sin.

I don't think @shnarkle is advocating perfect sinlessness, because that would be encouraging the readers to start judging themselves by their performance... He is simply asking us to read the Bible and believe what God says..

I don't think John or Peter are encouraging their readers to start judging themselves by their performance either, but they're definitely pointing out that those who abide in Christ no longer sin. What I'm pointing out is that we all have proof positive evidence that we're in denial if we think we're in Christ, yet continue to sin. We're only deceiving ourselves. Getting honest is critical to avoiding the penalties that must necessary come with open defiant rebellion against God's commandments. There is no way we can do it by our own will or effort, so we have to stop trying, and surrender to God's will.

Grace is not a license to continue to sin. Grace conforms us to the image of Christ, and there can be no sin in Christ.

I began to notice what's really going on when my doctor's told me that I didn't have long to live. I began looking at what I was doing, and made some changes. I continue to make changes in my life that require severe sacrifices, but the alternative is effectively no different than holding a loaded gun to my temple, and pulling the trigger. When one begins to see just how ghastly and deadly sin really is, there is no way one can sin anymore.

There's a story that Malcolm Muggeridge tells in one of his books about how he's swimming, and see's a woman off in the distance. He was a real lady's man so he swam over to her, but when he got close enough, he suddenly realized that she had open sores all over her face and body. She might have been a leper, but it suddenly dawned on him that there was something seriously wrong with him. He was objectifying women. He was oblivious to the risks he had been taking his entire life by having casual sex with so many women. He was oblivious to the effects of sin in his life, and how his own inability to control his sexual appetite was destroying him. God had provided him with an object lesson, and it changed his life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think John or Peter are encouraging their readers to start judging themselves by their performance either, but they're definitely pointing out that those who abide in Christ no longer sin. What I'm pointing out is that we all have proof positive evidence that we're in denial if we think we're in Christ, yet continue to sin.

Yes!!! So work that out!!
Be logical.

If anyone who abides in Him does not sin, and I see I do sin and am not sinless, should I keep insisting that I am abiding in Him??

Any man who has received the Holy Spirit knows darn well that he has. It is completely fine to acknowledge this. It is stupendous joy. But how does a man say then that He is abiding in Him? If a man would use some logic, he would not claim anything he isn't sure of. Instead, he would read that if we abide in Him we don't sin, and he would say...oh...then I must not be abiding in Him, because I do still sin...and yet I know I received the Holy Spirit.

Then the man's next thought would be, I need to know what abiding means, because I am obviously not doing it...

Why this insistence that one is abiding in Him?

 

[brakelite]

The flesh loves to sin too much to let it go, and we simply go along with it. We just indulge in hopeless resignation to sin.

I find the declaration by Christians that "we shall continue to sin till we die" so sad... It becomes for them a self fulfilling prophecy... They get precisely what their faith declares.

Getting honest is critical to avoiding the penalties that must necessary come with open defiant rebellion against God's commandments.

.. And the corollary to that being that the blood of Christ covers their sin... That even should they murder someone and walk away from Christ, they shall only lose some rewards.

Grace is not a license to continue to sin. Grace conforms us to the image of Christ, and there can be no sin in Christ.

I began to notice what's really going on when my doctor's told me that I didn't have long to live. I began looking at what I was doing, and made some changes. I continue to make changes in my life that require severe sacrifices, but the alternative is effectively no different than holding a loaded gun to my temple, and pulling the trigger. When one begins to see just how ghastly and deadly sin really is, there is no way one can sin anymore.

People seeking healing from God while continuing to live a lifestyle of neglect and selfish indulgence is also an exercise in futility.

There's a story that Malcolm Muggeridge

I haven't read any of his books, but always enjoyed his interviews.. An extremely perceptive and sharp man. I do remember a time when he was being interviewed, and was asked, "what is wrong with the world"?. His answer....I am.

 

[brakelite]

Yes!!! So work that out!!
Be logical.

If anyone who abides in Him does not sin, and I see I do sin and am not sinless, should I keep insisting that I am abiding in Him??

Any man who has received the Holy Spirit knows darn well that he has. It is completely fine to acknowledge this. It is stupendous joy. But how does a man say then that He is abiding in Him? If a man would use some logic, he would not claim anything he isn't sure of. Instead, he would read that if we abide in Him we don't sin, and he would say...oh...then I must not be abiding in Him, because I do still sin...and yet I know I received the Holy Spirit.

Then the man's next thought would be, I need to know what abiding means, because I am obviously not doing it...

Why this insistence that one is abiding in Him?

Your declaration of faith should always be what God says of you; you should accept His declaration as fact, not what you see by your eyes.
When God says there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, we may read further to understand why...
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(now see why Christ condemned sin in the flesh….)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death (why is it that to be carnally minded leads to death? Because the wages of sin is death); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Note that the carnal mind is not subject to God’s laws…the carnal mind cannot obey God…it is in fact at war with God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(But note the very next word)…..
9 But ….BUT….ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (Note this carefully.The born again Spirit filled believer in Christ is set in direct contradistinction to the carnal flesh minded unsaved unregenerated non-believer. The latter cannot obey God…but the former..what can He do???)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You're ignoring what I've posted. I'm not referring to those who have murder in their hearts. I'm referring to those God has given a new heart to keep his commandments in their hearts. Do you understand the difference? If you think one can receive the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit can dwell with a heart that conceives murder, then you are reading a different bible than I am. In fact, that's the unforgivable sin. To have the Holy Spirit dwelling within one's heart, and to then engage in sin is blasphemy.

Yes, I've heard that whole God's Spirit cannot be in a man who sins and isn't sinless thing. I don't buy it. I received His Spirit and He has never left me, even though I have sinned in unbelief at something He said. He is faithful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your declaration of faith should always be what God says of you; you should accept His declaration as fact, not what you see by your eyes.

You're a little mixed up here, I think. What have I not accepted as fact of what God has said?

I have rejected what a man has said - that once I received the Holy Spirit, bang! It was the day I became incapable of any disobedience.