Studying the Bible without thinking critically

[stunnedbygrace]

when Christ comes to indwell within the new creature in the New Covenant, there is no need to advocate for a heart that is sinless.

And there it is again...

 

[shnarkle]

Was Paul not speaking to Christians, who are under the New Covenant?

Here's the New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10 The bible explicitly points out that those who enter into the New Covenant no longer sin. God's promises are without repentance. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to point out that Christ's sacrifice covers sins committed under the Old Covenant. He never says anything about any sins occurring under the New Covenant. He points out that "there remains no more sacrifice for sin" under the New Covenant.

You're conflating the two covenants.

 

[shnarkle]

And there it is again...

There what is again?

 

[Nancy]

This is putting the cart before the horse. The law is divided up between those who keep it and those who don't. To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law which requires sacrifice to cover one's sins, but when one has come under the New Covenant, "there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Sacrifice only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant. Jesus only has to offer his life for those who are under the curse of the law. He died "while we were yet still sinners". Once one is saved, and born into the New Covenant, there is no need for sacrifice because those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh".



That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant.

To me, there is only one Covenant and that is the New one, the old has passed away. Heck, maybe you are one of the sinless or "few" that will make it to the Kingdom when all is said and done, while us other folk who do get angry at times, do think bad thoughts against someone or don't do what we know we should sometimes. We will fight the flesh, sin and Satan till He takes us home and there ain't no getting away from that...and we will not win every single battle...at least, I don't win every battle, but am winning more and more as I grow in faith and His strength.

 

[shnarkle]

Did you notice that none of that, or those verses, states that being given that new heart means that we obey God law perfectly (as you stated)?

Perhaps you're reading from a different bible because that's exactly what it states. There is no point in giving one a new heart to break God's commandments as that is precisely how the Old Covenant functions. Under the Old Covenant, one makes a commitment to keep God's commandments to the best of their ability. That is not how the New Covenant operates. The New Covenant isn't based upon your ability to keep it. It's based upon the fact that God has created a new creature for the sole purpose of keeping his commandments. They are created to keep God's commandments, and that's not only what they do externally, but what they do in the deepest recesses of their hearts.

The problem is that people see that they still sin, but they've been taught that they're part of the new covenant when they clearly can't be if they're still continuing to sin. Regardless of whether someone sins or not is beside the point. One has to address what the texts clearly point out.

 

[shnarkle]

To me, there is only one Covenant and that is the New one, the old has passed away.

It hasn't passed away for those who must still continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins.

We will fight the flesh,

Let the Spirit fight your battles. He has a much better track record.

sin and Satan till He takes us home and there ain't no getting away from that...

God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies.

and we will not win every single battle...

If that's what you insist on, God will grant it to you.

at least, I don't win every battle, but am winning more and more as I grow in faith and His strength.

No one is denying any of that. I'm just pointing out the distinctions between the two covenants. I'm using scripture to point out these distinctions. Perhaps you'd care to address these facts.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. You are saying when one receives the Spirit, they are incapable of ever sinning again. That it is impossible for them to ever after be prideful or to have anger in their heart or to doubt what God has said in some area. But since they see it is definitely not impossible, they will not believe you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. You are saying when one receives the Spirit, they are incapable of ever sinning again. That it is impossible for them to ever after be prideful or to have anger in their heart or to doubt what God has said in some area. But since they see it is definitely not impossible, they will not believe you.

Furthermore, a cursory examination of Peter doing what was wrong and being opposed to his face by Paul, shows that what you are saying is not true.

 

[Nancy]

It hasn't passed away for those who must still continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins.



Let the Spirit fight your battles. He has a much better track record.



God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies.



If that's what you insist on, God will grant it to you.



No one is denying any of that. I'm just pointing out the distinctions between the two covenants. I'm using scripture to point out these distinctions. Perhaps you'd care to address these facts.

nancy said:
"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
Hebrews 8:13

"It hasn't passed away for those who must still continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins." <---they are not just covered, they are removed as far as the East is to the West?

The Law was a schoolmaster or a shadow.... Out with the Old and in with the new...He made the Old obsolete- pertaining to achieving everlasting life/salvation He sure did, no?

Christ's sacrifice is over and He ain't gonna do it again. And, His sacrifice is eternal and was once for all. So, I see it as being eternal. But I derail here

"Let the Spirit fight your battles. He has a much better track record."

Oh, He has won many impossible battles for me! It can be exciting to watch Him work when in complete trust. To be honest here, maintaining "complete" trust in Him can be hard at times.

"God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies"

We should be growing to in discernment to recognize the lie when we see/hear it...Satan whispers, we agree with him or with God.
Yes, there is always an out that God has for us to walk away from sin, every time. It is most fierce when it occurs within the mind.

"Yeah, that ole stubborn nature but then..."
Don't we have a new nature?

nancy said: and we will not win every single battle...

"If that's what you insist on, God will grant it to you."

It's not a question of insisting on defeat at all. We don the weapons of our warfare and press forward, everyday!
We are in a broken world in constant spiritual battle, as well as the everyday battles of this world. Jesus has won the victory for us already but, we are still in this imperfect fleshly body. We are not all little Jesus's. He was, and always will be in -this world, the ONLY sinless man in existence...IMHO
But, I derail, sorry.

nancy said: at least, I don't win every battle, but am winning more and more as I grow in faith and His strength.

"No one is denying any of that. I'm just pointing out the distinctions between the two covenants. I'm using scripture to point out these distinctions. Perhaps you'd care to address these facts."

The old covenant is a shadow, a schoolmaster...it points to what sin is to God. As heard said "The Old Covenant concealed, The New Covenant concealed". There's a ton of scriptures I should think you already know (sry, too tired to look them all up) but- if there is any particular thing I had written that you think is un- biblical, I would be fine with you pointing it out.

Peace to you and,
Merry Christmas!

 

[shnarkle]

No. You are saying when one receives the Spirit, they are incapable of ever sinning again. That it is impossible for them to ever after be prideful or to have anger in their heart or to doubt what God has said in some area. But since they see it is definitely not impossible, they will not believe you.

Evidently, you believe that you are better able to articulate what I'm posting than I am. It would appear that by your logic, what I am posting isn't actually what I mean, but what you want it to mean. This is known as a Strawman argument. It is a fallacious argument because it is claiming that I am posting something when I' not posting that at all.

Ultimately, what it means is that you would rather argue a point with someone who is making a different claim instead of what I am actually posting.

 

[shnarkle]

<---they are not just covered, they are removed as far as the East is to the West?

If their sins are gone, they are sinless. Make up your mind. Do they continue to sin, or do they refrain from sin? Do they walk after the Spirit, or do they fulfill the lust of the flesh? Take your pick.

The Law was a schoolmaster or a shadow.... Out with the Old and in with the new...He made the Old obsolete- pertaining to achieving everlasting life/salvation He sure did, no?

No doubt about it. The schoolmaster is done away with, but here again this is only for those who walk after the Spirit. For them there is no need for a sacrifice any longer. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system. The schoolmaster (Greek paidagogos,) had nothing to do with teaching the child, but only making sure the lessons were learned. Too many Christians have been duped into believing that the schoolmaster refers to the Mosaic law when it refers to the "law that was added because of transgressions". Here again, you're making my points for me as the end of the schoolmaster comes about when there is no more sin. The schoolmaster becomes redundant when the student had learned their lessons.

Christ's sacrifice is over and He ain't gonna do it again.

Correct, but it is an eternal sacrifice, meaning that it covers whatever sins are committed in the future. This is the case for all who have not yet received Christ. it is applicable to those who have accepted Christ as their savior, and covers their sins as long as they live, but when they are made a new creature in Christ, the schoolmaster becomes redundant as they no longer sin with a heart created to keep God's commandments.

To be honest here, maintaining "complete" trust in Him can be hard at times.

This can only be the case under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, his "yoke is easy, his burden light". Under the New Covenant, there is nothing left to do because God has done everything for us. "it is finished".

"God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies"

Yes, there is always an out that God has for us to walk away from sin, every time. It is most fierce when it occurs within the mind.

Yes, the mind fabricates a separate identity. It is nothing more than an abstract construction. It isn't real. As Paul says, "not me, but Christ in me". As soon as one comes to realize this fact, the deception ends.

Don't we have a new nature?

What does the scripture say on the subject? Doesn't Paul point out that there is no sin in Christ? Doesn't Paul distinguish between the old and new nature? The old carnal mind sins, and can do nothing but sin no matter how well one may keep the commandments, it will be of no avail to the carnally minded. Only when one has given up trying to keep God's commandments, and surrendered to Christ will they be able to truly keep God's commandments in their heart. This can only come by revelation from God. It has to be received before one can convey it to anyone else.

nancy said: and we will not win every single battle...

"If that's what you insist on, God will grant it to you."

It's not a question of insisting on defeat at all. We don the weapons of our warfare and press forward, everyday!

You're not refuting a single thing I've posted so far. You're simply proving my argument which is that there are those who must fight to keep God's commandments, and there are those who have entered into the New Covenant, and can only keep God's commandments perfectly.

We are in a broken world in constant spiritual battle, as well as the everyday battles of this world. Jesus has won the victory for us already but, we are still in this imperfect fleshly body. We are not all little Jesus's. He was, and always will be in -this world, the ONLY sinless man in existence...IMHO
But, I derail, sorry.

You're not derailing at all. You're pointing out the conditions of the Old Covenant which depends upon one's will and effort to fight against evil.

The old covenant is a shadow, a schoolmaster...it points to what sin is to God.

No. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system, and it is only done away for those who no longer sin. Paul quite clearly points out that those who "walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh" therefore the schoolmaster has become redundant. There is no need for a schoolmaster to keep the student in line because they are keeping the teachings. They observe them perfectly.

 

[shnarkle]

Furthermore, a cursory examination of Peter doing what was wrong and being opposed to his face by Paul, shows that what you are saying is not true.

No. It only shows that Paul opposed Peter. There is no other witness to corroborate who was in the right. There have to be two witnesses. Paul cannot rely upon his own witness alone. We don't have Peter's side the story, just Paul's.

 

[Nancy]

If their sins are gone, they are sinless. Make up your mind. Do they continue to sin, or do they refrain from sin? Do they walk after the Spirit, or do they fulfill the lust of the flesh? Take your pick.



No doubt about it. The schoolmaster is done away with, but here again this is only for those who walk after the Spirit. For them there is no need for a sacrifice any longer. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system. The schoolmaster (Greek paidagogos,) had nothing to do with teaching the child, but only making sure the lessons were learned. Too many Christians have been duped into believing that the schoolmaster refers to the Mosaic law when it refers to the "law that was added because of transgressions". Here again, you're making my points for me as the end of the schoolmaster comes about when there is no more sin. The schoolmaster becomes redundant when the student had learned their lessons.



Correct, but it is an eternal sacrifice, meaning that it covers whatever sins are committed in the future. This is the case for all who have not yet received Christ. it is applicable to those who have accepted Christ as their savior, and covers their sins as long as they live, but when they are made a new creature in Christ, the schoolmaster becomes redundant as they no longer sin with a heart created to keep God's commandments.



This can only be the case under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, his "yoke is easy, his burden light". Under the New Covenant, there is nothing left to do because God has done everything for us. "it is finished".

"God has given us the ability to flee sin, and there is nothing standing in our way except our own stubborn fallen nature telling us lies"



Yes, the mind fabricates a separate identity. It is nothing more than an abstract construction. It isn't real. As Paul says, "not me, but Christ in me". As soon as one comes to realize this fact, the deception ends.



What does the scripture say on the subject? Doesn't Paul point out that there is no sin in Christ? Doesn't Paul distinguish between the old and new nature? The old carnal mind sins, and can do nothing but sin no matter how well one may keep the commandments, it will be of no avail to the carnally minded. Only when one has given up trying to keep God's commandments, and surrendered to Christ will they be able to truly keep God's commandments in their heart. This can only come by revelation from God. It has to be received before one can convey it to anyone else.



You're not refuting a single thing I've posted so far. You're simply proving my argument which is that there are those who must fight to keep God's commandments, and there are those who have entered into the New Covenant, and can only keep God's commandments perfectly.



You're not derailing at all. You're pointing out the conditions of the Old Covenant which depends upon one's will and effort to fight against evil.




No. The schoolmaster is a direct reference to the sacrificial system, and it is only done away for those who no longer sin. Paul quite clearly points out that those who "walk after the Spirit no longer fulfill the lust of the flesh" therefore the schoolmaster has become redundant. There is no need for a schoolmaster to keep the student in line because they are keeping the teachings. They observe them perfectly.

I will have to come back to this tomorrow, goodnight.

 

[Steve Owen]

Anyway, to understand what it is that is being said in that scripture, one has to understand it was not written to you and I, it is only for our understanding. For example:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The, you, are the disciples and he was telling them that some of them would still be alive when he returned.
That is the start of understanding prophecy!

Simply not the case. You need to compare Scripture with Scripture. In all three Synoptic Gospels, the text above is immediately followed by the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36).
2 Peter 1;16-18. 'For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eye-witnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and glory when such a voice came from the Excellent glory: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.'

 

[Steve Owen]

Let the Spirit fight your battles. He has a much better track record.

It is we who must fight our battles, but we do it in the power of the Spirit (eg. Colossians 3:5). The idea of 'Let go and let God' is false.

 

[shnarkle]

It is we who must fight our battles, but we do it in the power of the Spirit (eg. Colossians 3:5). The idea of 'Let go and let God' is false.

I disagree, and the reason I disagree is because when I let go, and let God, I see how God works "in the midst" of conflicts, strife, struggles, etc. I can give one example after another. Sometimes I don't even know what's going on in the first place. There's a real humiliating example of how I know it's God who is doing all the fighting because I get the victory without ever even knowing except after the fact. There simply is no way for me to take credit for it at all.

Sure, there are those battles I fight, and win, but more often than not, I lose as soon as I start trying to do what I think is the right thing to do. That's just me coveting the glory for myself. Let go of coveting the thought that you can rely upon yourself to win the victory. The victory is only in, with, and through Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hmmm, maybe that's why my family is crazy? My mom cooked in big aluminum pots

yeh, that stuff is death

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No. It only shows that Paul opposed Peter. There is no other witness to corroborate who was in the right. There have to be two witnesses. Paul cannot rely upon his own witness alone. We don't have Peter's side the story, just Paul's.

Oh okay good, lets strike most of the bible, and definitely gal 2:9-21.

 

[aspen]

One of the things I run into repteadely with regards to those who are "afraid to think too much about what they are reading" is they will immediately focus on me rather than what I've posted or pointed out. For example, I point out that under the New Covenant, the new creature in Christ does not sin. Instead of looking at the evidence from scripture, they immediately ask if I no longer sin. They simply can't look at the text itself to confirm what it states. Even if they do, they will not accept it because they have been admitting that they sin, and they firmly believe they are no longer part of the Old Covenant. This is what they've been taught, and it sounds good to them, so it doesn't matter what the texts state anymore.

is your name really snarkle?

ha

 

[Nancy]

yeh, that stuff is death

Well, there ya have it! What's your excuse?