Spotting Heretics

[Marymog]

Get the argument right.
What participating in the body of Christ means is what is in dispute here, for a person is indeed participating in the body of Christ when he eats the bread and drinks the wine at the table of Christ. That is what Paul says. But that does not mean you are literally eating the body of Christ, any more than participating with demons at the table of demons means you're literally eating demons.

"I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot partake in the table of the Lord and the table of demons too." 1 Corinthians 10:20-21​

Lol...I have addressed this "argument" already and I am not arguing with you. I am simply putting ALL of what Jesus and Paul said concerning His body and blood into context. Jesus compared himself to REAL bread (manna) saying we must eat him. He then held up bread and said it IS his body/blood and Paul re-affirmed it with the rhetorical question: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? Your answer to Paul is, No Paul, the cup of blessing which we BLESS is not a communion in the blood/body of Christ!

Soooooo how could we be sharing in the body and blood of Jesus unless his body and blood were present? Paul underscores this truth in the subsequent verses when he draws a parallel between the Eucharist and pagan sacrifices: [W]hat pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons…You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons (v.20-21).

If communing with demons in pagan sacrifices implies that demons are really present, then communing with the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist implies that his body and blood are really present.

Paul’s reference to the “table of the Lord” (v.21) also implies the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. If pagans offer a real victim (not a symbol) on the “table of demons,” then how much more do Christians offer a real victim, Jesus, on the “table of the Lord”?

When you add all of what Jesus and Paul said with VS 27 then the context is clear: (Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.)

 

[Marymog]

Faith comes by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
You receive the Holy Spirit by having faith in what you hear about the gospel of Christ. You continue in the blessing of that Holy Spirit by hearing about the gospel you have received, not through the rituals of 'religion'. 'Religion' (and I mean that in every negative connotation of the word) says you achieve closeness and intimacy with God through ceremonies and procedures and rituals...if they are done correctly and in the approved way that your church says God wants them done. But the Bible ('my men') is quite clear about the falseness of that belief:

"9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them." Hebrews 13:9

"8But food does not bring us closer to God: We are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do." 1 Corinthians 8:8​

Once you discover these truths for yourself in the pages of the Bible you can NEVER be fooled again by a church, especially the Catholic church, that you must, and can only, relate to God through the doings of their various 'approved' ceremonies and rituals. That is why I can NEVER attend, let alone join, the Catholic church. Yours is just another cold dead ceremonial unspiritual false religion of the world. Lost in the lie that to truly know God you have to relate to him through certified and approved official creeds and rituals. Not even remotely true. I don't think you will ever know, but it would be great if you knew what it means to have a relationship with God instead of relating to him through 'religion'. Instead of 'religion', relating to him through what actually constitutes a 'knowing' relationship with him and no longer deceitfully thinking you're pleasing to him and approved by him because you are confident that you have and practice the only accurate and approved creeds and rituals he approves. I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are hopelessly bound up in the falseness of cold dead 'religion'. Most people are.

Hey Ferris,

Faith starts by ACCEPTING THE WORD OF GOD! Many have heard the word but not all have accepted the faith! Soooo you are wrong on that part.

What are the things we must do AFTER we have accepted the word of God Ferris? We must follow the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. According to the NT Baptism, which is a "ritual of religion" comes right after ACCEPTING the word of God. Mark 10:17-21 is also what we must do after ACCEPTING the word of God. One of the "rituals of religion" that you reject but the NT Christians practiced is what Jesus told us to do in Luke 22:19! Also James 5:16 comes to mind on things we must do. Hebrews 13:17 is something we must do. I could go on and on but you get the gist of what I am saying. Once you discover these truths (and many other truths I left out) for yourself in the pages of the Bible your ears will never be tickled again and you will discover that your men have been lying to you.

 

[Marymog]

We know that. I plainly said we eat the Bread from heaven, Jesus, when we BELIEVE in Jesus, at which time his sacrifice on the altar in heaven is applied to our account. That's why it's referred to as being 'by faith'. We don't literally see or taste the sacrifice of Christ in heaven, it is applied to us through our faith in it. His sacrifice comes to us via the word about his sacrifice, not through the literal sacrifice itself, or it would not be by faith. Faith is defined by what you CAN'T see but must receive by conviction, not by evidence.

Ferris, Ferris, Ferris......

No where at no point does Scripture ever say that when we believe in Jesus it is the same as eating bread from Heaven. Goodness gracious.....

I agree! Faith is described by what you can't see. You can't see OR believe that the bread/wine is His body/blood. You lack that faith. The NT Christians didn't.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus compared himself to REAL bread (manna) saying we must eat him.

EXACTLY!

Compared!
He gives spiritual life just like bread gives us physical life and so he is 'real' bread that way!
It's just plain dishonest to stare down at your communion bread and into the wine glass and tell yourself these aren't really bread and wine, they are human flesh and blood. Just plain dishonest. Deceitful is what it is!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I agree! Faith is described by what you can't see. You can't see OR believe that the bread/wine is His body/blood. You lack that faith. The NT Christians didn't.

Nope! You said it's REAL.

 

[Marymog]

The corruption of the Catholic church IS it's doctrine.
I firmly resist corrupt, Catholic doctrine.

I know you do. You have made that very clear. I can see that you are very confident that the doctrine your men have taught you is not corrupt. The funny things is all this doctrine you have articulated to me in our discussions became popular during the Protestant Revolution. And then some of those Protesant revolutionaies disagreed with the doctrine or the original Revolutionaries and started their own 'true doctrine' and then some other men disagreed with them and they started their own 'true doctrine' until now, 500 years later, every person that reads the bible thinks THEY know the truth and we now have thousands of denominations with dozens of different "truths". How confident are you that the doctrine your men have taught you is true doctrine and not a false doctrine? The further you get away from Catholic teaching and the teachings of the Apostolic Fathers is MORE true?

 

[Marymog]

Nope! You said it's REAL.

If then God so clothe the grass, which is today in the field, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If then God so clothe the grass, which is today in the field, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

GET REAL!
It ain't real human flesh, and real blood in that cup!

Why isn't your 'faith' turning it into 'real' flesh and blood?
Everybody in the 'faith' movement knows faith actually makes real what it hopes for. Your faith that your men told you to have to justify the fact that the wine and the bread isn't flesh and blood doesn't change anything. Just look in the cup. Your faith does nothing.

Obviously, 'real' means 'real' for what it 'really' is. It's 'real' SPIRITUAL food, not literal food. It's real that way. It really is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No where at no point does Scripture ever say that when we believe in Jesus it is the same as eating bread from Heaven. Goodness gracious.

I explained it to you.
When you believe in Christ's sacrifice, that sacrifice gets applied to you just like when you eat the food of a Mosaic altar. It gets applied through believing because the altar from which we eat is in heaven, not on earth:

"10We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat." Hebrews 13:10​

 

[Marymog]

EXACTLY!

Compared!
He gives spiritual life just like bread gives us physical life and so he is 'real' bread that way!
It's just plain dishonest to stare down at your communion bread and into the wine glass and tell yourself these aren't really bread and wine, they are human flesh and blood. Just plain dishonest. Deceitful is what it is!

Let's keep it real Ferris.

Jesus compared himself to the holy manna that was sent down to earth for God's people. He then TOLD us that we must eat him. At the Last Supper he then showed us how to eat Him! He said that He is the bread that came down from heaven and that we MUST eat Him. And Paul said if you eat that bread in an unworthy manner......Ugggg....Never mind.

BTW....Did you know that a jar of manna was kept in the Ark of the Covenant along with the tablets of the Ten Commandments and the rod of Aaron? Hmmmm.....so Jesus was comparing himself to Holy Manna that his ancestors ate and that they thought so highly of that they placed it in the Ark. The people he was talking to KNEW what he meant; that they had to eat HIM just like their ancestors ate the bread. At that time some walked away and followed him no more. Sadly, still today some walk away and follow him no more.

Jesus told them that they must eat Him just like they did the Holy Manna. Which matches up with what your NT Christians forefathers taught in the Didache (written BEFORE some books in the NT): Celebrate the Eucharist as follows: Say over the cup: “we give you thanks, Father, for the holy vine of David, your servant, which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever.”

Over the broken bread say: “We give you thanks, Father, for the life and the knowledge which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. As this broken bread scattered on the mountains was gathered and became one, so too, may your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom. For glory and power are yours through Jesus Christ for ever.”

Do not let anyone eat or drink of your eucharist except those who have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For the statement of the Lord applies here also: Do not give to dogs what is holy.

DO NOT GIVE TO DOGS WHAT IS HOLY??? Holy cow Ferris....this sounds familiar!! I wonder if that matches up with Matthew 7:6??? Well, at least we KNOW that it matches up with what Paul said; Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. You can't eat a symbol in an unworthy manner AND be guilty of something if it is not Holy!!

And all of that matches up with what the Apostolic Fathers taught in the early 100'sAD AND the belief by the Roman authorities in the mid 2nd century that Christians were participating in cannibalism during their Church services.

WOW....The NT and the first 120 years of non-biblical Christian writings AND the rituals (that word that you hate) that they participated in teach OPPOSITE of what your men have taught you!


Do ya' get it now Ferris?

 

[Marymog]

I explained it to you.
When you believe in Christ's sacrifice, that sacrifice gets applied to you just like when you eat the food of a Mosaic altar. It gets applied through believing because the altar from which we eat is in heaven, not on earth:

"10We have an altar from which those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat." Hebrews 13:10​

Thank you for proving my point: Nowhere at no point does Scripture ever say that when we believe in Jesus it is the same as eating bread from Heaven.

 

[Marymog]

GET REAL!
It ain't real human flesh, and real blood in that cup!

Why isn't your 'faith' turning it into 'real' flesh and blood?
Everybody in the 'faith' movement knows faith actually makes real what it hopes for. Your faith that your men told you to have to justify the fact that the wine and the bread isn't flesh and blood doesn't change anything. Just look in the cup. Your faith does nothing.

Obviously, 'real' means 'real' for what it 'really' is. It's 'real' SPIRITUAL food, not literal food. It's real that way. It really is.

Christianity has never taught that it is human flesh or real blood. It is clear you do not know your own Christian history. I recommend you start reading the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (men who were students of the Apostles) instead of reading the writings of the men from the Reformation. BTW...the father of your PROTESTant Revolution....Martin Luther....believed in the Real Presence. Soooooo the men who are teaching you have not only fallen out of line with the teachings of the NT and NT Christians....but they have fallen out of line with the father of the Revolution. That is how far you have fallen from original Christian doctrine.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Thank you for proving my point: Nowhere at no point does Scripture ever say that when we believe in Jesus it is the same as eating bread from Heaven.

Mary! Wake up!
Jesus is 'bread' that came down from heaven and feeds God's people.
This is not literal bread. Through his sacrifice we are nourished to eternal life.
How are you not getting this????

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I recommend you start reading the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (men who were students of the Apostles)

I will not read what those morons have to say. I've heard enough to know they are not to be considered. The Bible has the words that we need.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

instead of reading the writings of the men from the Reformation. BTW...the father of your PROTESTant Revolution....Martin Luther....believed in the Real Presence. Soooooo the men who are teaching you have not only fallen out of line with the teachings of the NT and NT Christians....but they have fallen out of line with the father of the Revolution. That is how far you have fallen from original Christian doctrine.

You need to start listening.
My 'men' are the authors of the Bible, not Luther, not Calvin, and surely not any of the early so-called church fathers. I read my Bible. And I talk to others who read their Bibles. That's all I need. YOU are the one who is convinced the words of God in scripture are not enough.

 

[Marymog]

I will not read what those morons have to say. I've heard enough to know they are not to be considered. The Bible has the words that we need.

Lol...soooo you won't read what the students of the Apostles wrote? Men who were actually able to question and quiz the Apostles about what they meant when they wrote those things but you will read the morons of the Protestant Revolution...and believe them OVER the men who could ask clarifying questions?
Simply F A S C I N A T I N G!!

You crack me up!

 

[Marymog]

You need to start listening.
My 'men' are the authors of the Bible, not Luther, not Calvin, and surely not any of the early so-called church fathers. I read my Bible. And I talk to others who read their Bibles. That's all I need. YOU are the one who is convinced the words of God in scripture are not enough.

Lol....no, your men are not the authors of the bible. Either YOU read what the authors of the bible wrote and interpret it YOUR way OR you read what how OTHER MEN have interpreted what they wrote. You trust YOUR interpretation or what "others who read their Bibles" tell you. It's that simple kiddo.

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. You can't eat a symbol in an unworthy manner AND be guilty of something if it is not Holy!!

You obviously have very low reading comprehension.
I'm not aware of any non-Catholic church that thinks Communion is not holy. I'm confident I told you this! What it is not is the real blood and body of Christ. That's so absurd I can't believe there are people who believe such a ludicrous lie. All you have to do is stare down in your cup next Sunday and see for yourself that Jesus was OBVIOUSLY talking figuratively, and, that your so-called 'faith' doesn't make it his actual body and blood. At least in faith services congregants actually receive what they have believed for. You Catholics get nothing when you 'believe' that the wine and bread become the blood and body of Christ. It's pure imagination.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol...soooo you won't read what the students of the Apostles wrote? Men who were actually able to question and quiz the Apostles about what they meant when they wrote those things but you will read the morons of the Protestant Revolution...and believe them OVER the men who could ask clarifying questions?
Simply F A S C I N A T I N G!!

You crack me up!

They got it wrong!
I explained to you that the fact that they didn't stay in line with scripture makes their proximity to the Apostles MEANINGLESS. I don't need to read any more than what I already know they've said. If what I do know is wrong there's no reason to pursue what they said any further. My Bible is sufficient. It isn't for you, but it is for me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You trust YOUR interpretation or what "others who read their Bibles" tell you. It's that simple kiddo.

...by the Holy Spirit.
I aware that you Catholics do not believe John when he said we have the capacity to do that. Instead, you have believed the lie of your men that say you do not have that capacity and that only they can discern truth for you.