Spotting Heretics

[Marymog]

Quoting the Bible is "unbiblical"? Okay then...

I never said that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That is your made-up distortion of what I wrote. Sooooo that deliberate misinterpretation doesn't work.

Your second paragraph "theory" is nonsense. You need to take a break and think about what you're actually saying.

Lol....No, quoting the bible is not unbiblical. Misquoting, as you have done, is though.

We are MEMBERS of Christs body, just like 1 Cor 12:27 says, but not all members are THE Church. If, as your theory goes, all members were THE Church then that means all members ARE the pillar and foundation of truth. Clearly you do not know what you are saying.

 

[Marymog]

The appointment is divine, meaning God has called and gifted them for service in the body of Christ, the church. Not you or I.


Let me refresh your memory about this discourse we had a while back... ↓↓↓

You have a very good memory Ferris. Thank you for refreshing mine.

You believe your list of men that you follow are gifted believers that have been called and anointed by God!!!

So riddle me this Ferris: If those men that you listed are gifted believers that God has called and anointed, WHY do they all teach different "truths"? Are they confused? Is God confused?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

This is just rationalization, and illogical at that. It's reductio ad absurdum. There are obviously going to be differences, but people should follow God's word -- the Bible and the Holy Spirit -- not the edicts of fallible men. The church history is filled with abhorrent decisions and behavior by "pious" men. So that theory does not work.

Your theory makes no sense Jim and it is circular. Here is your circular argument in practice:

STEP 1: When MEN read the Bible, they should follow God's word.
Step 2: God's word says when there is a difference between two men, they are to take their difference to 2-3 other men to settle it.
Step 3: If they also disagree with those other men, they are to take their differences to the church (which consists of men).
Step 4: God's word says if they disagree with the decision of those men of THE Church they are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.
Step 5: Jim B says men are not supposed to follow the 'edicts of fallible men' because the church is filled with abhorrent decisions.

So Jim, what do I do if I am not supposed to, as your theory suggest, follow fallible men who make horrible decisions? According to your theory we can now throw out Matthew 18:17 because fallible men made the decision that the person who isn't listening to them is to be ex-communicated.

Go back to step 1 Marymog and the problem is solved......

Can you NOW see how your circular theory makes no sense?

 

[Marymog]

Are you lying, or do you just not know that Matthew 18:15-17 directs us to consider someone a pagan or tax collector if they refuse to reconcile with us when they've wronged us, not when someone is at a different stage of knowledge of Christ?

Am I lying???? Did you even read what I wrote Ferris....oh goodness. You are wearing me out. I was showing how the theory that has been presented DOES NOT WORK!!!

Lol...A different stage of knowledge of Christ?????? What on God's green earth does THAT have to do with the men of the Church deciding who is to be treated as a pagan???????????? Being at a different stage of knowledge of Christ has NOTHING to do with men of the church deciding who is to be ex-communicated.

If a new Christian is at a juvinile stage of knowledge of Christ AND they don't listen to what the men of the church tells them, they are to be ex-communicated.

If a person has been a Christian for 90 years and they don't listen to what the men of the church tells them, they are to be ex-communicated.

Scripture says NOTHING....let me repeat this....N O T H I N G about being at different stages of knowledge and you can disobey true doctrine and believe a false doctrine just because you are at a different stage....WHO TAUGHT YOU THIS?????

 

[Philip James]

But why do you believe anything that is written if you are not going to believe it all?

Thats a good one Scott.. Haha..

Here let's start with this:

'this is my body, take and eat'
'this is the new covenant in my blood, take and drink'

'unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you'

If we are not eating of the One Loaf and drinking of the One Cup, Jesus gave to the apostles where are we?

Did you not know this news must surely come someday? It is written.

What news would that be Scott?

Everything written of the Church has been fulfilled, except the final unleashing of evil. In which she must follow in the Passion of her Master..

She will be humiliated, beaten, stripped and crucified.. The daily sacrifice will be outlawed and the world will rejoice at her 'death'... But after crucifixion.. Glory!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Jim B]

Your theory makes no sense Jim and it is circular. Here is your circular argument in practice:

STEP 1: When MEN read the Bible, they should follow God's word.
Step 2: God's word says when there is a difference between two men, they are to take their difference to 2-3 other men to settle it.
Step 3: If they also disagree with those other men, they are to take their differences to the church (which consists of men).
Step 4: God's word says if they disagree with the decision of those men of THE Church they are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.
Step 5: Jim B says men are not supposed to follow the 'edicts of fallible men' because the church is filled with abhorrent decisions.

So Jim, what do I do if I am not supposed to, as your theory suggest, follow fallible men who make horrible decisions? According to your theory we can now throw out Matthew 18:17 because fallible men made the decision that the person who isn't listening to them is to be ex-communicated.

Go back to step 1 Marymog and the problem is solved......

Can you NOW see how your circular theory makes no sense?

If the word of God makes no sense to you, that is your problem, not mine.

Are you deliberately twisting what I wrote because you don't understand the Bible? You can follow fallible "priests" who make up "the truth" as they go along, justifying their unscriptural doctrine to the gullible, but I believe what the word of God says.

Tell your priests that you follow the word of God (in context!) and, unless their teachings agree with what the Bible says, you reject them. Let me know how it comes out.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If their is a disagreement among us I can just go and find everyone in the church that agrees with me to tell you your wrong and then we can treat YOU like a pagan or tax collector...

Are you lying, or do you just not know that Matthew 18:15-17 directs us to consider someone a pagan or tax collector if they refuse to reconcile with us when they've wronged us, not when someone is at a different stage of knowledge of Christ?

Am I lying????

Are you lying when you say Matthew 18:15-17 is about excommunicating people over doctrinal disagreements, or are you just at a different stage of knowledge and don't know it's about when someone sins against you?

Scripture says NOTHING....let me repeat this....N O T H I N G about being at different stages of knowledge and you can disobey true doctrine and believe a false doctrine just because you are at a different stage....WHO TAUGHT YOU THIS?????

 

[Marymog]

Are you lying when you say Matthew 18:15-17 is about excommunicating people over doctrinal disagreements, or are you just at a different stage of knowledge and don't know it's about when someone sins against you?

Ah...I see what you are saying. Thank you for the clarification....and being patient with me! :cool:

No, I am not lying when I say it is about ex-communicating church members over doctrinal disagreements. Lets look at that passage from Matthew 18 in context:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

vs15 A church member SINS. You call them out on their SIN. They listened to you and you forgave them. (Look at vs21)

vs 16 They don't agree with you and they don't think they SINNED. You go and get 2 more church members and they agree with you, the other person SINNED.

vs17 They still refuse to listen to the 3 of you because they don't think what they did was a SIN. So all 4 of you go to the leaders of the Church and that 1 person refuses to listen to the leaders of the Church that says they have SINNED. Since they have now refused to listen to the members of the church and the leaders of The Church they are to be treated as a heathen/tax collector/pagan/Gentile.

vs18 What the leaders of The Church decided on earth (that the person in fact did sin) is bound in heaven!

Heathen/tax collector/pagan/Gentile.....All were non-believers (atheist) or, in the case of the tax collector, dis-liked and shunned! So, what vs17 is saying is since they don't agree with the teachings or doctrine of The Church they are a non-believer and to be shunned. If they agree with The Church's teaching/doctrine they can stay a member OR not be kicked out of The Church.

In regard to your "different stage of knowledge" interpretation....that makes no sense. It doesn't matter if the person is new to The Church and are at stage 1 of their "knowledge" OR has been a member for 20 years. If they disagree with the decision of The Church on doctrine....they are to be shunned. Once The Church has spoken it doesn't matter what THEY "know". It only matters what The Church says.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

If the word of God makes no sense to you, that is your problem, not mine.

Lol...You make no sense to me. That is why I am disagreeing with you....and, as I laid out in my scenario, so does Scripture.

 

[Marymog]

Are you deliberately twisting what I wrote because you don't understand the Bible? You can follow fallible "priests" who make up "the truth" as they go along, justifying their unscriptural doctrine to the gullible, but I believe what the word of God says.

Tell your priests that you follow the word of God (in context!) and, unless their teachings agree with what the Bible says, you reject them. Let me know how it comes out.

Riggghhht....I should follow YOUR teachings....because you are not fallible but priests are....

 

[ScottA]

Thats a good one Scott.. Haha..

Here let's start with this:

'this is my body, take and eat'
'this is the new covenant in my blood, take and drink'

'unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you'

If we are not eating of the One Loaf and drinking of the One Cup, Jesus gave to the apostles where are we?

Okay...lets try a different tact:

Since Jesus said His words are spirit, and since they are spiritually discerned according to the apostle Paul-- The words you just quoted from Jesus, what do they mean spiritually?

 

[ScottA]

What news would that be Scott?

Everything written of the Church has been fulfilled, except the final unleashing of evil. In which she must follow in the Passion of her Master..

She will be humiliated, beaten, stripped and crucified.. The daily sacrifice will be outlawed and the world will rejoice at her 'death'... But after crucifixion.. Glory!

The prophecies that I have been quoting now repeatedly for many posts. That Jesus put a fork in the path of whom to follow; that He would come when you do not expect; that if any should say He delays His coming, He would cut them in two and give them their portion with the hypocrites; that false teachers would come into the church and lead many astray; that those who believed the lie that He was NOT coming quickly and all that He said would NOT shortly come to pass, that they would fall into strong delusion.

Which things are true, but you deny because you have believed according to what was prophesied to be false and a lie.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No, I am not lying when I say it is about ex-communicating church members over doctrinal disagreements.

Actually, it's not about that.
So, are you lying, or do you just not know that it's talking about when someone sins against you?

 

[Marymog]

Actually, it's not about that.
So, are you lying, or do you just not know that it's talking about when someone sins against you?

Lol....I already answered that question Ferris. You even quoted my answer. Here it is again: No, I am not lying when I say it is about ex-communicating church members over doctrinal disagreements.

How about if you take what I have written and prove it to be wrong instead of just giving your opinion; which consisted of 5 words? I wrote over 350 words and used Scripture to debunk your theory. You use a 5 worded OPINION and ask me a question I have already answered.

What I think is happening here is that you have realized that your theory has been debunked and there is no way you can defend it so you are being a broken record and repeating the same words......;)

But, since you are at an early stage in your knowledge it's clear you don't understand how to properly interpret Scripture.....eventually you will come around to the Truth (that's your theory in practice Ferris). :)

Bible study Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol....I already answered that question Ferris. You even quoted my answer. Here it is again: No, I am not lying when I say it is about ex-communicating church members over doctrinal disagreements.

Okay, so you're just not knowledgeable about what the passage is actually talking about.

Do you see the two points that your answer is addressing that we have been discussing?

 

[Marymog]

No, but it was at the beginning of the first 1.500 years that the departure of the church took place. .....

Hold on Scott....HOLD ON!

So your theory is that The Church, CHRISTIANITY, for the first 1,500 years after the death of Christ made a slow departure from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles? And then wham bam, magically, with the blessing of God 500 years ago the enlightened by the Holy Spirit men of the Reformation came along and got Christianity back on track? Back to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles? Is that really what you believe? :

You do realize that the revolution your forefathers brought 500 years ago has DIVIDED Christianity. There are now MULTIPLE salvific "truths" being taught by MULTIPLE men at MULTIPLE churches with all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit????

Soooooooooooo, in a nut shell, your theory is nutty!!!

 

[Marymog]

Okay, so you're just not knowledgeable about what the passage is actually talking about.

Do you see the two points that your answer are addressing that we have been discussing?

I am very knowledgeable about what the passage is actually talking about Ferris. And my 350 word response shows that I am very knowledgable about what that passage is talking about. How many words have you written to show me that you are knowledgable about that passage? NO I don't see the 2 points.

Either give me a good debate, try to educate me or debunk what I have written or leave me alone....you are wearing me out!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So your theory is that The Church, CHRISTIANITY, for the first 1,500 years after the death of Christ made a slow departure from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles?

I know you are asking Scott, but my answer is, no, it made a very quick decline, lol. Just as Paul said it would.
When the gentiles took over the church leadership they led it away from the truths of scripture.

And then wham bam, magically, with the blessing of God 500 years ago the enlightened by the Holy Spirit men of the Reformation came along and got Christianity back on track?

No. Enlightened men had the courage to take it back from the corruption of the Catholic institution! And praise God for them! I am absolutely sickened by what the Catholic church has done to Christianity. I'm not exaggerating. I feel sick inside when I read about what the Catholic organization believes and teaches.

You do realize that the revolution your forefathers brought 500 years ago has DIVIDED Christianity. There are now MULTIPLE salvific "truths" being taught by MULTIPLE men at MULTIPLE churches with all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit????

So that means NONE of them have any truth, then, right?
Your logic is so short sided.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am very knowledgeable about what the passage is actually talking about Ferris. And my 350 word response shows that I am very knowledgable about what that passage is talking about. How many words have you written to show me that you are knowledgable about that passage? NO I don't see the 2 points.

Either give me a good debate, try to educate me or debunk what I have written or leave me alone....you are wearing me out!

The passage plainly says when a brother sins against you, lol. No interpretation needed. But you Catholics feel the need to change it and say it means when someone has a differing doctrinal belief. Or is that just you that is changing it?

The point is, you prove the reality of our differing levels of knowledge. And, it addresses the other point we were discussing that not being knowledgeable doesn't instantly equate to being a liar, just uneducated about something. That is why I asked you if you are lying about the passage or just not knowledgeable about it.

 

[amigo de christo]

I know you are asking Scott, but my answer is, no, it made a very quick decline, lol. Just as Paul said it would.
When the gentiles took over the church leadership they led it away from the truths of scripture.


No. Enlightened men had the courage to take it back from the corruption of the Catholic institution! And praise God for them! I am absolutely sickened by what the Catholic church has done to Christianity. I'm not exaggerating. I feel sick inside when I read about what the Catholic organization believes and teaches.


So that means NONE of them have any truth, then, right?
Your logic is so short sided.

Take no offense to what say next . But if i even ever saw you headed towards the CC , I would a cut your foot off and you would be lame .
That place is deadly dangerous . WE must have NO part nor lott in its matters AS it has no part nor lott in Christ . PEROID .