Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation

[St. SteVen]

You claim that God must be merciful by sending EVERYONE to go to heaven....Ah...but this doesn't make Him just.

It seems that the more I explain, the less you understand.
No one gets a free pass to heaven without judgement. (evaluation) No one.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

What does JUST mean anyway?
If it means what it means.....:
TO GIVE TO EACH WHAT HE DESERVES....

If we all got what we deserve, where would that put us? (in your view)
Better hope that doesn't happen.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems that the more I explain, the less you understand.
No one gets a free pass to heaven without judgement. (evaluation) No one.

Are you a universalist?
I understand very well.
Why not just say that I don't agree with you?
Everyone will be judged....
But will they get justice?
Will they get what they deserve?

So Hitler will get a little more salt than the rest of us but he'll be in heaven too?

And I don't see the word EVALUATION in the NT.
I see the word JUDGEMENT...which is something specific.

JUDGE.

a person who is in charge of a trial in a court and decides how a person who is guilty of a crime should be punished, or who makes decisions on legal matters:

the person who officially decides who is the winner of a competition:

a person who has the knowledge to give an opinion about something or is able to decide if someone or something is good or bad:

to form, give, or have as an opinion, or to decide about something or someone, especially after thinking carefully:

source: judge

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.


If we all got what we deserve, where would that put us? (in your view)
Better hope that doesn't happen.

[

I've already addressed that.
Do YOU understand ME?

 

[Behold]

No one gets a free pass to heaven without judgement. (evaluation) No one.

The Grace of God is that all who Believe in Jesus have "passed from death to life" and will never face judgment for their SIN... and that is because God has already poured out His Judgment against Sin, on His Son.

Welcome to : Salvation. "IN Christ".

Its where Holy God forgives all sin, and ends all eternal wrath against the sinner, based ONLY on the finished work of JESUS on The Cross.

This is why JESUS is the "SAVIOR">

He saves the believer from their SIN
He saves the believer from God's Wrath against sin
He saves the believer from Going to Hell by becoming "the one time eternal Sacrifice for Sin"., on the BELIEVER's behalf.

And this Salvation is ETERNAL.. It will last on behalf of "all who believe in Jesus shall be SAVED"... ............it will last for as long as GOD who created this Eternal Redemption.... LIVES..... , that is found "IN CHRIST".

 

[St. SteVen]

No SS,,,,it's not a good defense for universalism.
This is because universalism is not found in the NT.

Are you sure?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Read Romans 8:21 ALL OF CREATION suffered from the fall....ALL OF CREATIONS will be restored.

That actually supports Universalism. All of creation will be restored.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus died for THE WHOLE WORLD....
His sacrifice was sufficient to save everyone THAT WANTS TO BE SAVED.
Read John 3:16
Read Acts 16:31

That actually supports Universalism. There is no caveat in the verse.
I have also said repeatedly that all three doctrines of the final judgement are biblical and contradictory.
So, I am not surprised, nor dissuaded, that you can cite contradictions.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

From Him, Through Him and In Him is a deep theological discussion and I'm not having it here.
You make it to be too plain.

And wow, Romans 11:32 when Paul is teaching that the Gentiles were ESTRANGED from God but now have the opportunity to belong to the Body. Bad pick SS. It proves we can be estranged from God.

Who is there other than Jews and gentiles? That covers everyone. So, "all" = all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Ditto.
You can't accept that there are conditions to being saved.
You really believe a holy God will let everyone in?
Read Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean is getting in.
To know what unclean is read about the marriage banquet in Matthew.

I have said repeatedly that no one gets into heaven free. You have yet to remember that.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Yes Sir. You do like these verses.
Problem is.....you must accept all verses in the NT.
Not just the ones that sound pleasant to you personally.

You told me originally that the NT says NOTHING about Universalism. - LOL
Now you criticize me for liking what I found? Get real.

Why do I have to accept your verses while you reject mine?
That saw should cut both ways.

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Especially of those who believe.

Do ALL persons believe in God?

The savior of all people. Does "all" = only some?

Those who believe are a subset of all people. (who are saved)

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

[

Click to expand...

Well, that's all I have time for.
Your verses do NOT support your belief system.

AND,,,,I'm not playing verse ping pong with you.
You can believe what you will...
but it is NOT biblical because universalism was NEVER taught either in the NT
or after the NT or EVER until, if I remember correctly, about the 1800's.

You told me originally that the NT says NOTHING about Universalism.
Now you tell me it is too much for you to handle. - LOL

Universalism from the 1800s? - LOL (you are sadly mistaken)

Here are a couple of topics on the origins of Universalism. (Apokatastasis)

Apokatastasis in the early church

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

www.christianityboard.com

Apokatastasis in the Bible

And...

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

And...

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

So Hitler will get a little more salt than the rest of us but he'll be in heaven too?

That's only that half of it. (not even)

What would be the ULTIMATE triumph of grace?
You probably can't even fathom it.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?
I hope you aren't claiming that Jesus is a hypocrite?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

And I don't see the word EVALUATION in the NT.
I see the word JUDGEMENT...which is something specific.

Does the scripture below refer to judgement or evaluation? ("Day" = age)

1 Corinthians 3:11-13 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Are you a universalist?
I understand very well.
Why not just say that I don't agree with you?

Believe whatever you like. But don't falsely claim that I do not have a defendable position.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Problem is.....you must accept all verses in the NT.
Not just the ones that sound pleasant to you personally.

I wrote a topic about this approach.

The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible

We have all been there. You present your doctrinal position and give biblical support for it. The response is, "Yeah, but..." and then your "opponent" gives their differing doctrinal position with biblical support. So basically, Bible versus Bible. (who will win?) Ironically, the WORDS "Yeah...

www.christianityboard.com

Why don't you accept my verses?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I've already addressed that.
Do YOU understand ME?

Of what value?
You already claimed that the NT has no support for UR. (not true)
Then you gave up trying to explain why the TONS of evidence I provided wasn't evidence at all.
You have made zero effort to understand me.

I can provide more evidence if you like. But you need to finish what you started first.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

And I don't see the word EVALUATION in the NT.
I see the word JUDGEMENT...which is something specific.

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

[

 

[Behold]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?

What has Jesus Offered ALL His Enemies??

He''s offered them them His Blood and Death and Resurrection..., so that they can go to Heaven and be with Him after they die.........if they will Believe.

If not, if his enemies want to to pretend that Hell does not exist, and they all try to prove the bible is filled with errors....... Then, if they DECIDE to die unforgiven, and "in their sins",.. as Christ told them....then they chose for themselves the eternal alternative to Heaven, that is reserved for them.

John 3:38

 

[GodsGrace]

That actually supports Universalism. All of creation will be restored.

Romans 8:20-21
All of creation will be restored.
Right.
Nature.
Nature will be restored.
Even nature suffered from the fall.

That actually supports Universalism. There is no caveat in the verse.
I have also said repeatedly that all three doctrines of the final judgement are biblical and contradictory.
So, I am not surprised, nor dissuaded, that you can cite contradictions.

You mean the word ALL supports universalism in that Jesus died FOR ALL?
Apparently you don't know about the debate between traditional christianity and the reformed faith.
They believe Jesus died ONLY FOR THE ELECT/SAVED.
Traditional Christianity believes Jesus died FOR ALL PERSONS,,,PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

You don't see any caveat?
Interesting...I posted quite a few.

Let's try some different ones:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

What IS the wrath of God??
AND....it ABIDES in the person.

Matthew 7:23 JESUS SAID
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Sounds like another caveat.

Matthew 7:24 JESUS SAID
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Another cavaet.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

More caveats....and there are plenty more.

Who is there other than Jews and gentiles? That covers everyone. So, "all" = all.


I have said repeatedly that no one gets into heaven free. You have yet to remember that.

Well, what is there to remember SS?
You've really never explained this.
Do you believe everyone gets into heaven or not?
Asked you at least twice now.

You told me originally that the NT says NOTHING about Universalism. - LOL
Now you criticize me for liking what I found? Get real.

Why do I have to accept your verses while you reject mine?
That saw should cut both ways.

Because YOU are not correctly exegeting the verses.
You are paying any attention to context.
You are against what Christianity teaches.
Universalism is a heresy......not in line with Christian teachings.

The savior of all people. Does "all" = only some?

Those who believe are a subset of all people. (who are saved)

Already explained twice now....
Not going there again.

You told me originally that the NT says NOTHING about Universalism.
Now you tell me it is too much for you to handle. - LOL

Looks like it's not too much for me to handle SS.
I don't know what words I used....but truth is....
I find it rather incredible that some TOPICS need to be explained since ALL CHRISTIANS should understand the same teachings of Jesus, Paul and all the writers.

So far your verses have not supported your ideology....
Could you find just one or two?

Universalism from the 1800s? - LOL (you are sadly mistaken)

Here are a couple of topics on the origins of Universalism. (Apokatastasis)

Apokatastasis in the early church

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

www.christianityboard.com

Apokatastasis in the Bible

And...

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

And...

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

[

Post some writings of the early church Fathers.

I really don't care what Herzog wrote in 1908.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's only that half of it. (not even)

What would be the ULTIMATE triumph of grace?
You probably can't even fathom it.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should he do with his?
I hope you aren't claiming that Jesus is a hypocrite?

[

Steven....
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What did He mean by this?

Do you really think Jesus....read all the woes in Matthew.....is teaching us to LOVE in the sense that we mean it today....our enemies?
So you love Hitler?
Do I have this right?

By love Jesus meant that we are not to UNRIGHTEOUSLY hate anyone and that we are to love.....in a brotherly way, our neighbor. By this is meant that we are to contribute to make the world a better place.

Jesus also said that we are to HATE our mother and our father.
Did He MEAN THAT TOO?

Are you serious?
Who is being a hypocrite here....
JESUS did NOT MEAN that we are to LOVE HITLER.

I think your understanding of the NT needs a complete rehaul.
And I'm not being snarky.....I REALLY mean this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Believe whatever you like. But don't falsely claim that I do not have a defendable position.

[

1. In post no. 141 you stated this:
"It seems that the more I explain, the less you understand."

My reply was:
You could say you don't agree with me but you cannot say I don't understand your position.

2. So,,,I am not claiming that you do not have a defendable position...
I'M STATING that you do not have a defendable position.

Universalism is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Only judgment and what happens if a person dies under the wrath of God.

God is a Holy, Perfect being.
He will not be wanting anyone around Him that did not acknowledge Him and serve Him in this life.

NO ACKNOWLEDGMENT...
NO OBEDIENCE....
NO SALVATION.

 

[GodsGrace]

I wrote a topic about this approach.

The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible

We have all been there. You present your doctrinal position and give biblical support for it. The response is, "Yeah, but..." and then your "opponent" gives their differing doctrinal position with biblical support. So basically, Bible versus Bible. (who will win?) Ironically, the WORDS "Yeah...

www.christianityboard.com

Why don't you accept my verses?

[

Because SS
I've been a Christian most of my life and have been studying the NT for about 40 years
and what you post believing it supports your view DOES NOT support your view.

I think you should stop reading books and read the NT through, which I'm sure you've done,
but I mean with a clear mind....not filled up with what some person or other may believe.
The truth is in the NT.

If universalism were the truth...
there would be NO NEED for the NT....all its teachings.....all its warnings.

The good news would be that we're all going to heaven in the end.
But that's not what the NT teaches....

 

[GodsGrace]

Of what value?
You already claimed that the NT has no support for UR. (not true)
Then you gave up trying to explain why the TONS of evidence I provided wasn't evidence at all.
You have made zero effort to understand me.

I can provide more evidence if you like. But you need to finish what you started first.

[

Uffa!
I don't need you to post more stuff.
I know what you believe.
And don't call the verses you post EVIDENCE.
They don't even support what you believe...
I explained away each and every one...
But I CAN'T SIT HERE ALL DAY reply to your verses.

The NT is a complete thought.
It's not a bunch of verses.

 

[St. SteVen]

You mean the word ALL supports universalism in that Jesus died FOR ALL?

Yes.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son
to be the Savior of the world.

Did Jesus fail at his mission?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

More caveats....and there are plenty more.

Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

[

Enough SS.
Wm Barclay agrees with you.
This is why I said to stop reading what MEN WRITE and concentrate on the NT.
I could post HUNDREDS of books that will agree with me.
So what?

Last question....
WHY are you so afraid of God's wrath?
I'm not.
Are you disobeying Him and are afraid of judgment?

Now....I don't care to ask stuff like this...but maybe it should be asked.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

[

That's very insulting SS.
How low do you want to go??

I posted verses that PROVE beyond any doubt that there are CAVEATS to Jesus having died for all...
there are CONDITIONS.

I think this will be it for tonight.

And find out what Caveat means.