Sound Doctrine

[Episkopos]

You are truly confusing me. You take the name Episkopos (Bishop) which is an overseer or teacher and you admit you are such with the people you gather with during your meetings. But teacher or overseer (Bishop) is not your title, it is just your function. Does it matter to you that Scripture, Christian history and the dictionary makes it a title? Definition of OVERSEER

The church is like a group of friends who function together as the friends of Jesus. A Christian worker is a job description. Just like construction worker. No one says..."Hi, construction worker Jim." They just say "hi Jim."

No need of special garments or holy rings. No pointy hats. The function is spiritual. So then normal clothes are worn. Everybody is just themselves...but surrendered to God.

The bible is not speaking in religious terms? What terms would a religious book speak in?

It isn't a religious book. And God isn't religious. It is life from another dimension. It is eternal reality.

Who is your teacher in these things? From whom did you learn what you are preaching to me?

Mary

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. ;)

Not from men.

I was anointed by the Holy Spirit one day in a meeting. The bible describes this process...as in...

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

I didn't choose this vocation. God selected me for it...I think because I'm not religious. I'm an intimacy guy. :)

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy. What are we to make of these bible verses?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
1 Corinthians 11:2
James 5:16
John 20:23

Mary

2 Thessalonians 2:15 - These traditions are the teaching of the Gospel!
1 Corinthians 11:2 - See above.
James 5:16 - Not at all sure of what point you are trying to make here but, I do all of these things with my brothers and sisters in Christ!
John 20:23 First of all, I am sure that YOU believe Peter was the only one in presence when this was said, others believe it was all Christians and some believe it was the 11 Apostles. I believe the audience were His Apostles.
Little exerpt:
In John's Gospel, Jesus talks about sin as unbelief, the unwillingness or incapacity to grasp the truth of God manifested in him. To have sin abide, therefore, is to remain estranged from God. The consequence of such a condition is ongoing resistance. Sin in John is not about moral failings; primarily it is an inability or refusal to recognize God's revelation when confronted by it, in Jesus. (Note what Jesus, says, concerning the world, in John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." Cf. John 9:39-41).

Consequently, the resurrected Christ tells his followers (all his followers) that, through the Spirit that enables them to bear witness, they can set people free ("set free" or "release" is a better translation than "forgive" in 20:23) from that state of affairs. They can be a part of seeing others come to believe in Jesus and what he discloses.

Failure to bear witness, Jesus warns, will result in the opposite: a world full of people left unable to grasp the knowledge of God. That is what it means to "retain" sins ("retain" is the opposite of "set free"). Jesus is not--at least, not in this verse--granting the church a unique spiritual authority. He is simply reporting that a church that does not bear witness to Christ is a church that leaves itself unable to pay a role in delivering people from all that keeps them from experiencing the fullness that Jesus offers.
Commentary on John 20:19-23 by Matt Skinner

 

[Episkopos]

What we read in the bible is God choosing His own workers and minsters. Paul was selected...not by His wanting the job. God chose him...so that many had a very hard time receiving him. That's the way of God. He doesn't do things man's way.

This is how Paul and Barnabas were chosen to travel as workers for the Lord.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Why were they set apart?

For the work of God.

By Whom?

By the Holy Spirit.

This will not be acceptable to many....but that is how the real church functions...by authority from God.

 

[Marymog]

The church is like a group of friends who function together as the friends of Jesus. A Christian worker is a job description. Just like construction worker. No one says..."Hi, construction worker Jim." They just say "hi Jim."

No need of special garments or holy rings. No pointy hats. The function is spiritual. So then normal clothes are worn. Everybody is just themselves...but surrendered to God.


It isn't a religious book. And God isn't religious. It is life from another dimension. It is eternal reality.


You wouldn't believe me if I told you. ;)

Not from men.

I was anointed by the Holy Spirit one day in a meeting. The bible describes this process...as in...

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

I didn't choose this vocation. God selected me for it...I think because I'm not religious. I'm an intimacy guy. :)

Hi,

The church is a group of friends? So which person in that "group of friends" decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector (Matthew 18:17)? Or does the group decide? If they group decides then wouldn't they have authority over everyone else?

I don't like the special garments and pointy hats either...... But God has always used man made objects for us to relate to (i.e. Ark of the Covenant).

Are you sure it was the Holy Spirit? Matthew 7:15

Mary

 

[Episkopos]

Hi,

The church is a group of friends? So which person in that "group of friends" decides who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector (Matthew 18:17)? Or does the group decide? If they group decides then wouldn't they have authority over everyone else?

The group decides. It's a natural thing. Birds of a feather do flock together. This part is not about authority....it's about unity in the Spirit. we are to reject a divisive person. Divisive of what? Divisive of the love and cohesion that is in the group. So if a person is being used by the devil to destroy what God is building...then that person is sent away. The overseer informs the divisive person of his not being ready for an intimate relationship with God and His people.

I don't like the special garments and pointy hats either...... But God has always used man made objects for us to relate to (i.e. Ark of the Covenant).

But that was before the Holy Spirit empowered everyone. In the past things were just a shadow of things to come. But that reality is here...yet people seem to prefer a continuing of shadows.

Are you sure it was the Holy Spirit? Matthew 7:15

Mary

My Sheep know My voice. Others just scratch their heads and wonder. :)

 

[Marymog]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 - These traditions are the teaching of the Gospel!
1 Corinthians 11:2 - See above.
James 5:16 - Not at all sure of what point you are trying to make here but, I do all of these things with my brothers and sisters in Christ!
John 20:23 First of all, I am sure that YOU believe Peter was the only one in presence when this was said, others believe it was all Christians and some believe it was the 11 Apostles. I believe the audience were His Apostles.
Little exerpt:
In John's Gospel, Jesus talks about sin as unbelief, the unwillingness or incapacity to grasp the truth of God manifested in him. To have sin abide, therefore, is to remain estranged from God. The consequence of such a condition is ongoing resistance. Sin in John is not about moral failings; primarily it is an inability or refusal to recognize God's revelation when confronted by it, in Jesus. (Note what Jesus, says, concerning the world, in John 15:22: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." Cf. John 9:39-41).

Consequently, the resurrected Christ tells his followers (all his followers) that, through the Spirit that enables them to bear witness, they can set people free ("set free" or "release" is a better translation than "forgive" in 20:23) from that state of affairs. They can be a part of seeing others come to believe in Jesus and what he discloses.

Failure to bear witness, Jesus warns, will result in the opposite: a world full of people left unable to grasp the knowledge of God. That is what it means to "retain" sins ("retain" is the opposite of "set free"). Jesus is not--at least, not in this verse--granting the church a unique spiritual authority. He is simply reporting that a church that does not bear witness to Christ is a church that leaves itself unable to pay a role in delivering people from all that keeps them from experiencing the fullness that Jesus offers.
Commentary on John 20:19-23 by Matt Skinner

Hi Nancy.

Correct me if I am wrong about this. You accept the interpretation of Scripture by Matt Skinner but you reject the interpeations of the Apostolic and ECF’s?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

The group decides. It's a natural thing. Birds of a feather do flock together. This part is not about authority....it's about unity in the Spirit. we are to reject a divisive person. Divisive of what? Divisive of the love and cohesion that is in the group. So if a person is being used by the devil to destroy what God is building...then that person is sent away. The overseer informs the divisive person of his not being ready for an intimate relationship with God and His people.


But that was before the Holy Spirit empowered everyone. In the past things were just a shadow of things to come. But that reality is here...yet people seem to prefer a continuing of shadows.


My Sheep know My voice. Others just scratch their heads and wonder. :)

Son....you are confusing me even more.

According to you the "group" that makes the decision has no authority since it's "not about authority"!!! However, as we know, scripture gives that group of yours the authority to treat the person as a pagan or tax collector. Sooooo how is it NOT about authority? You just don't want to call it authority so it makes you feel good inside? If the "overseer informs the divisive person of his not being ready for an intimate relationship with God and His people" then you are practicing authority but yet you don't claim to have any authority.....that makes no sense!!!

What is a "natural thing"? That everyone comes to the same interpretation of Scripture?

When did God tell us to disregard the Ark of the Covenant and treat it as a thing of "the past"? Why are we instructed to use oil in healing (James 5:14) and spit/dirt was used to cure the blind however, according to you and your belief, there is no need for these things? Scripture seems to say opposite of what you believe.

How do you KNOW if your the sheep that hears his voice or the one who fulfills 2 Peter 3:16?

Mary

 

[farouk]

If two "local church governments" disagree with an interpretation of Scripture, which one has authority? Do the Epistles answer that question?

Mary

The Apostle's doctrine in the New Testament is the norm, learned and practised at a local congregational level, not religious hierarchies.

 

[Episkopos]

Son....you are confusing me even more.

According to you the "group" that makes the decision has no authority since it's "not about authority"!!! However, as we know, scripture gives that group of yours the authority to treat the person as a pagan or tax collector. Sooooo how is it NOT about authority? You just don't want to call it authority so it makes you feel good inside? If the "overseer informs the divisive person of his not being ready for an intimate relationship with God and His people" then you are practicing authority but yet you don't claim to have any authority.....that makes no sense!!!

What I mean is that we don't wait for a visitation from God to do it. Paul says...reject such a person after 2 warnings. So then I see this is being about the group.

But I suppose you're right that if the overseer gets involved there is an authority being exercised. But this has to do with group cohesion. So then authority backs this up. It's a good point.

I see authority as God intervening...in life and death. When someone dishonours God...say in the breaking bread (communion) then they could get sick or die. That's how i see ultimate authority. It's when judgment comes down from God.

What is a "natural thing"? That everyone comes to the same interpretation of Scripture?

No, the same relationship with God.

When did God tell us to disregard the Ark of the Covenant and treat it as a thing of "the past"? Why are we instructed to use oil in healing (James 5:14) and spit/dirt was used to cure the blind however, according to you and your belief, there is no need for these things? Scripture seems to say opposite of what you believe.

How do you KNOW if your the sheep that hears his voice or the one who fulfills 2 Peter 3:16?

Mary

These things are far less than what I would say authority constitutes. A person can pray...and just not be answered. No harm no foul. But there are things that bring judgment from God.

 

[Marymog]

The Apostle's doctrine in the New Testament is the norm, learned and practised at a local congregational level, not religious hierarchies.

What "doctrine in the New Testament" are you speaking of? I am not familiar with it.

Your interjection of a nonsensical answer into this conversation still does not answer the question: If two "local church governments" disagree with an interpretation of Scripture, which one has authority?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

What I mean is that we don't wait for a visitation from God to do it. Paul says...reject such a person after 2 warnings. So then I see this is being about the group.

But I suppose you're right that if the overseer gets involved there is an authority being exercised. But this has to do with group cohesion. So then authority backs this up. It's a good point.

I see authority as God intervening...in life and death. When someone dishonours God...say in the breaking bread (communion) then they could get sick or die. That's how i see ultimate authority. It's when judgment comes down from God.


No, the same relationship with God.


These things are far less than what I would say authority constitutes. A person can pray...and just not be answered. No harm no foul. But there are things that bring judgment from God.

You accept that you have authority but yet reject that authority

If everyone has the "same relationship with God" then wouldn't everyone have the same interpretation of Scripture? If our relationship was different we would have different interpretations....Right?

If someone in your group disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture (i.e. your breaking bread/get sick and die analogy) what do you do with them?

Mary

 

[Episkopos]

You accept that you have authority but yet reject that authority

If everyone has the "same relationship with God" then wouldn't everyone have the same interpretation of Scripture? If our relationship was different we would have different interpretations....Right?

I don't stress authority. I'm not authoritative. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't intervene. I tend to minimize my role and look to God.

When you have unity, yes, people agree on doctrine. But it isn't doctrine first....or at least it goes hand in hand with seeing the same way.

Many churches stress a creed that has no real unity. It's like the fine print in a contract. Nobody really pys too much attention to it.

But in a small fellowship that meets around the Lord...flowing in the Spirit IS the proof of a sound doctrine. Putting love and life in Christ as foremost is good practice.

If someone in your group disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture (i.e. your breaking bread/get sick and die analogy) what do you do with them?

Mary

We keep such people unless they get disruptive. Not too long ago I had to warn someone who mistook our freedom in the Spirit for a chance to vent opinions. The person saw their error...and became more respectful of the common purpose of the group..which is to seek after God's will...not an individual's will. Freedom in the Spirit is necessary to the free flowing of the Spirit in our midst. Some misuse this freedom as a chance to prop up the flesh. That's where the overseer guides that one into a clearer understanding of why we meet.

 

[Marymog]

I don't stress authority. I'm not authoritative. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't intervene. I tend to minimize my role and look to God.

When you have unity, yes, people agree on doctrine. But it isn't doctrine first....or at least it goes hand in hand with seeing the same way.

Many churches stress a creed that has no real unity. It's like the fine print in a contract. Nobody really pys too much attention to it.

But in a small fellowship that meets around the Lord...flowing in the Spirit IS the proof of a sound doctrine. Putting love and life in Christ as foremost is good practice.


We keep such people unless they get disruptive. Not too long ago I had to warn someone who mistook our freedom in the Spirit for a chance to vent opinions. The person saw their error...and became more respectful of the common purpose of the group..which is to seek after God's will...not an individual's will. Freedom in the Spirit is necessary to the free flowing of the Spirit in our midst. Some misuse this freedom as a chance to prop up the flesh. That's where the overseer guides that one into a clearer understanding of why we meet.

Hmmmmm..... I think it is best you stop responding to me. You keep contradicting yourself with every post and I am tired of pointing that out.

Best wishes.....Mary

 

[Episkopos]

Hmmmmm..... I think it is best you stop responding to me. You keep contradicting yourself with every post and I am tired of pointing that out.

Best wishes.....Mary

You're not seeing that there is more than one thing going on. Life has dynamics...it is alive and moves. This is intolerable for people who are used to dogmas. I have known groups that were pushing themselves as authorities...but it was all from the carnal man. I tend to go the opposite way. I tend to not take myself that seriously....and yet I have seen God move many times to back up what He has shown me.

But that is so specific...and so personal.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy.

Correct me if I am wrong about this. You accept the interpretation of Scripture by Matt Skinner but you reject the interpeations of the Apostolic and ECF’s?

Curious Mary

I accept the interpretation I myself pray for and am settled in my spirit with. Just because I have used Matt Skinners view point is because it agrees with mine and he explains it much better than I.

 

[Marymog]

I accept the interpretation I myself pray for and am settled in my spirit with. Just because I have used Matt Skinners view point is because it agrees with mine and he explains it much better than I.

Thank you. So, for you personally, what scripture comes down to is what YOU believe it means. You just need to find the right person to explain it better than you? And in this case Skinner, who lived 1900 years after the Apostilc and ECF’s, has a better explenation of Scripture than they do? Is that a good summary of what you believe?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I have already posted on this in depth but all you have to do is read and study Luke 24 and see it for yourself.

44 And he [CHRIST] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2]the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

So what is the Holy Spirit telling us through Luke who recorded the exact words of Christ?

"The Scriptures" = the Hebrew Scriptures = the Tanakh = 24 books

Christ DEFINED and LIMITED the Scriptures as above:

1. The Law of Moses = TORAH = 5 books
2. The Prophets = NEBIIM (NEVIIM) = 8 books
3. The Psalms = KETHUBIM (KETUVIM) = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 BOOKS (39 books in Protestant Bibles)

Now can you see how and why the Deuterocanonicals were automatically excluded?

Hi Enoch,

The Syriac recognize most of the Deuterocanonical books as Scripture? Does that mean you now accept the Deuterocanonical?

It stands to reason and using your logic if YOU think the Syriac’s got the NT Canon right then they must have gotten the OT Canon right.....Right?

Curious and Patient Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The ONLY Holy Father I will EVER recognize as such is God Almighty...you can keep your cannons, traditions of men, extra-biblical writings and works. And you can keep your "confessionals" as you think you need to confess your sins to God through a MAN and the bible CLEARLY teaches that there is ONE mediator, Jesus Christ. The curtain was rent in half, opening up the Holy of Holies so that we mere human beings -who put our total faith in the ONLY one who IS faithful, are now able to "... approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
" Hebrews 4:16

Hey, it's good to see you posting! This forum has seemed kind of dead since you and Helen haven't been here.

 

[farouk]

Hey, it's good to see you posting! This forum has seemed kind of dead since you and Helen haven't been here.

Good to welcome back old friends, right?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Hi Nancy. What are we to make of these bible verses?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
1 Corinthians 11:2
James 5:16
John 20:23

Mary

Great verses! Nothing about infallible men in any of them!