Soul Sleep

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

(Ecc. 12:7) "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Stranger

Like the scriptures say the spirit in humans is the same spirit in animals. Also the scriptures tell us that when a person dies he has no more thoughts, so that means no more memories or emotions. The point is there was no spiritual person that went to God. If you believe that, then as I said you're saying the person didn't die. You're saying that there is no death, which is a lie. You can say all you want to, that you're saying Adam died, but if you believe the spirit that returned to God is a spiritual person then you are calling God a liar because you don't believe the person who we know as Adam is dead.

 

[Stranger]

Like the scriptures say the spirit in humans is the same spirit in animals. Also the scriptures tell us that when a person dies he has no more thoughts, so that means no more memories or emotions. The point is there was no spiritual person that went to God. If you believe that, then as I said you're saying the person didn't die. You're saying that there is no death, which is a lie. You can say all you want to, that you're saying Adam died, but if you believe the spirit that returned to God is a spiritual person then you are calling God a liar because you don't believe the person who we know as Adam is dead.

No, man's spirit is the spirit of man, not as animals.

Again, your using the book of (Ecclesiastes) which I explained before is all about this life alone. Life under the sun. But even there it is shown that man's spirit returns to God. (Ecc. 12:7) Man's spirit goes upward. (Ecc. 3:21)

There is no death in the way you are defining death. (Ecc. 12:7) is clear. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

(2 Cor. 5:6-8) "...whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:...and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

No such thing as 'soul sleep'. No such thing as death as you define it.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

BOSOM POSITION:

In an illustration, Jesus spoke of a beggar named Lazarus who was carried at his death to “the bosom position of Abraham,” and John refers to Jesus as being in “the bosom position with the Father.” (Lu 16:22, 23; Joh 1:18) The expression “bosom position” alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.

Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover.—Joh 13:23, 25; 21:20.

For these reasons John, in describing the very special position of favor enjoyed by Jesus, said that he was in “the bosom position” of his Father Jehovah. Likewise, in Jesus’ illustration, Lazarus was carried to “the bosom position” of Abraham, denoting that this beggar finally came into a position of special favor with one who was his superior.

The reference to Lazarus and the rich man is a true story. It is not an illustration or a parable. Jesus said "There was a certain rich man,...and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus...." (Luke 16:19-20) No need to name the beggar other than it was a true story.

As I said earlier, prior to the Cross and Resurrection, both saved and unsaved went to a place where on one side it was torment, (Luke 16:22-23), and on the other side it was paradise known as Abraham's bosom. (Luke 23:43) The place of the grave. Sheol. Hades. Why? Because until the Cross the blood had not been shed that would remove sin from the believer. Thus the believer was not yet ready to enter the presence of God in Heaven. But once that was accomplished, Christ went to this place and freed those who were there and led them back to Heaven. (Eph. 4:8)

So, now the only persons left in that place are those located with the rich man in the torment side. The other side, called Abraham's bosom, is empty.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No, man's spirit is the spirit of man, not as animals.

Again, your using the book of (Ecclesiastes) which I explained before is all about this life alone. Life under the sun. But even there it is shown that man's spirit returns to God. (Ecc. 12:7) Man's spirit goes upward. (Ecc. 3:21)

There is no death in the way you are defining death. (Ecc. 12:7) is clear. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

(2 Cor. 5:6-8) "...whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:...and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

No such thing as 'soul sleep'. No such thing as death as you define it.

Stranger

Yes I am using the book Ecclesiastes. It's not my fault you don't see the book of Ecclesiastes as it should be seen. You are the one who says there is no death, by the way you define it. You're saying God put a spiritual person in the human body at creation which means not only was this spiritual person alive before God put this spirit in man but this spirit continues living when the human dies. You're the one who is saying there is no death. You're saying that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence. You're the one who is saying there is no death. After all you are the one who is saying that Adam is in Heaven, not me. You saying Adam is in heaven is completely against Scripture. The scripture says very clearly that the ones that will be heaven first is the Apostles and disciples of Jesus who have died in the Lord. So you saying Adam is in heaven is against scripture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No, man's spirit is the spirit of man, not as animals.

Again, your using the book of (Ecclesiastes) which I explained before is all about this life alone. Life under the sun. But even there it is shown that man's spirit returns to God. (Ecc. 12:7) Man's spirit goes upward. (Ecc. 3:21)

There is no death in the way you are defining death. (Ecc. 12:7) is clear. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

(2 Cor. 5:6-8) "...whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:...and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

No such thing as 'soul sleep'. No such thing as death as you define it.

Stranger

The reference to Lazarus and the rich man is a true story. It is not an illustration or a parable. Jesus said "There was a certain rich man,...and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus...." (Luke 16:19-20) No need to name the beggar other than it was a true story.

As I said earlier, prior to the Cross and Resurrection, both saved and unsaved went to a place where on one side it was torment, (Luke 16:22-23), and on the other side it was paradise known as Abraham's bosom. (Luke 23:43) The place of the grave. Sheol. Hades. Why? Because until the Cross the blood had not been shed that would remove sin from the believer. Thus the believer was not yet ready to enter the presence of God in Heaven. But once that was accomplished, Christ went to this place and freed those who were there and led them back to Heaven. (Eph. 4:8)

So, now the only persons left in that place are those located with the rich man in the torment side. The other side, called Abraham's bosom, is empty.

Stranger

No, this isn't true what you say and you have used the scriptures to say that person's don't die but continue living. That's calling God a liar. So you can continue to interpret the scriptures the way you are all you want to but you're still saying death is just another doorway to another plain of existence, therefore you're saying the person continues living. If you wish to continue to call God a liar by the way you believe that's on you, but death is the opposite of life. The living are aware that they are living the dead are not aware of nothing, their thoughts perish.

Ephesians 4:8 had nothing to do with taken any person or persons to heaven, it concerns men who are given as gifts to the congregation.
Elders are a provision from Jehovah to look after his sheep. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Jehovah’s sheep are dear to him—so dear, in fact, that he purchased them with the precious blood of Jesus. Little wonder, then, that Jehovah is pleased when elders treat his flock with tenderness. (Acts 20:28, 29)

Such elders are referred to in the Bible as “gifts in men.” (Ephesians 4:8) When you think of a gift, you think of something given to fill a need or to bring happiness to the one receiving it. An elder can be considered a gift when he uses his abilities to provide needed assistance and to contribute to the happiness of the flock. How can he do this? The answer, found in Paul’s words at Ephesians 4:7-16, magnifies Jehovah’s loving concern for his sheep.

When Paul used the expression “gifts in men,” he was quoting King David, who had said of Jehovah: “You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men.” (Psalm 68:18) After the Israelites had been in the Promised Land for some years, Jehovah figuratively “ascended” Mount Zion and made Jerusalem the capital of the kingdom of Israel with David as its king. But who were the “gifts in the form of men”? They were men taken captive during the conquest of the land. Some of these captives were later made available to the Levites to help with the work at the tabernacle.—Ezra 8:20.

In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul indicates that the psalmist’s words have a greater fulfillment in the Christian congregation. Paraphrasing Psalm 68:18, Paul writes: “Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: ‘When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.’” (Ephesians 4:7, 8) Paul here applies this psalm to Jesus as God’s representative. Jesus “conquered the world” by his faithful course. (John 16:33) He also triumphed over death and over Satan by reason of God’s resurrecting him from the dead. (Acts 2:24; Hebrews 2:14) In 33 C.E., the resurrected Jesus ascended “far above all the heavens”—higher than all other heavenly creatures. (Ephesians 4:9, 10;Philippians 2:9-11) As a conqueror, Jesus took “captives” from the enemy. How so?
When on earth, Jesus demonstrated his power over Satan by delivering those held in bondage to the demons. It was as if Jesus invaded Satan’s house, bound him, and seized his goods. (Matthew 12:22-29) Just think, once resurrected and entrusted with ‘all authority in heaven and on earth,’ what plundering Jesus could then do! (Matthew 28:18) Starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., the ascended Jesus, as God’s representative, began despoiling Satan’s house by ‘carrying away captives’—men who had long been in slavery to sin and death and under Satan’s control. These “captives” willingly became “Christ’s slaves, doing the will of God whole-souled.” (Ephesians 6:6) Jesus, in effect, wrenched them from Satan’s control and, on Jehovah’s behalf, gave them to the congregation as “gifts in men.” Imagine Satan’s helpless rage as they were snatched from under his very nose!

 

[101G]

Correct. Sleep is simply a metaphor for death, since the corpse at the time of burial gives the appearance of sleeping. But the moment a human being dies, his or her soul and spirit DEPART FROM THE BODY. And there are only two destinations: (1) for the believer to be immediately with Christ and (2) for unbelievers to be immediately in Hades, with other unbelievers.

what scripture you use to show souls in heaven? please post it, or them.

Thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

what scripture you use to show souls in heaven? please post it, or them.

HEBREWS 12: ALL THOSE PRESENTLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

THE NEW JERUSALEM IS IN HEAVEN
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

1. WITH COUNTLESS ANGELS SURROUNDING GOD
...and to an innumerable company of angels...

2. WITH ALL THE NT SAINTS WHO HAVE PASSED ON
23 To the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

3. WITH GOD ENTHRONED IN HEAVEN
...and to God the Judge of all...

4. WITH ALL THE OT SAINTS BROUGHT OUT OF HADES
...and to the spirits of just men made perfect...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

5. WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR MEDIATOR
...24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant...

6. WITH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SPRINKLED ON THE MERCY SEAT
...and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is a powerful passage which has been grossly neglected.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Sin is like dead to the soul because the Soul is not active to the persons mind.
The works of Sin is as death to the Soul. = the wages of Sin is death.
So the person who is not Saved is not in touch with there Soul, it's still their but not in contact or lost to the mind of the person. that's why a un saved Sinner will abide in Sin given the chance.
Ones Soul is always awake forever, as it can not be killed.
Ones Soul knows when what you do is wrong.

The scriptures say the soul that is sinning dies, so according to the scriptures Souls do die, God can kill them. The flood is a testament to that fact. The scriptures nowhere say man has an immortal soul. Plus the scriptures show that the righteous as well as the unrighteous die because of sin. The only hope that mankind has, "righteous as well as unrighteous" is the resurrection. The word resurrection means standing up to life again. How can someone stand back up to life again if as you say they are already living in heaven, and why would a righteous person who's in Heaven be resurrected out of heaven, what's the point if such a person is in heaven already? I think it was Paul who said he had the hope of the resurrection of the righteous as well as the unrighteous at Acts 24:15

 

[101G]

first thanks for the reply, my, my, my, but you must meet people where they are at.

HEBREWS 12: ALL THOSE PRESENTLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

THE NEW JERUSALEM IS IN HEAVEN
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

ERROR, did you read the very next verse?, listen, Hebrews 12:23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect". you're not in heaven, nor any of those who have passed on before us, but your/our names are written in heaven... SO NOTHING THERE

1. WITH COUNTLESS ANGELS SURROUNDING GOD
...and to an innumerable company of angels...

are you an angel? .. drum roll...... NO. SO NOTHING THERE

2. WITH ALL THE NT SAINTS WHO HAVE PASSED ON
23 To the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

see my answer to the very first question you made.... SO NOTHING THERE

3. WITH GOD ENTHRONED IN HEAVEN
...and to God the Judge of all...

yes, God is in heaven but not you or anyone else who once lived. SO NOTHING THERE

4. WITH ALL THE OT SAINTS BROUGHT OUT OF HADES
...and to the spirits of just men made perfect...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

spirits are not human "SOULS", my God. SO NOTHING THERE

5. WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR MEDIATOR
...24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant...

yes, the NEW Covenant is for the LIVING who are right here on old planet earth. boy these excuses get worest and worest, oh well, NO THERE THERE ... (lol).

6. WITH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SPRINKLED ON THE MERCY SEAT
...and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
This is a powerful passage which has been grossly neglected

are you kidding me? I mean, are you serious? there is no BLOOD in heaven. I'm lost for words.

I thought you might would come out with something better, like this, Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
at least that would have been an legitimate try. but what you posted, I see why the church is in trouble... my, my...my.

oh well. but for the OT and NT saints, Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

only David spirit is with God. and his, David, body is in the earth, and his soul is in the memory of God written there. for God, who contain all Souls in memory, and if a soul sinneth, it will die. where? answer Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".

and how do we know that the soul is in memory of God? A. for it is written, Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.Malachi 3:17 "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".

what did God say, "mine?". scripture, Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
the soul is in God's memory, who forgets nothing, can we see, and prove this in scripture?, yes, Luke 23:42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise".

Now how do we know that he, the thief, didn't go to PARADISE that day, (To Day). because the Lord Jesus himself did go to paradise that same DAY... "To day". but what did the thief asked? "remember" me. not to take him to paradise but to remember him.

so what do "rememberance means? to have memory, which the faculty by which the mind stores and remembers information

just like the prophet Jeremiah, 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations".

knew is past tense of KNOW, which is to have knowledge or information concerning. To remember or have a recollection of.

so our souls are in storage in God's memory, (volatile), if not activated. now where is God? ... (smile), everywhere. and if the soul is in God's memory, stored, meaning inactive, or a better term of a metaphor to use .... "asleep".

Just as one's spirit returns to God who gave it, and the bible don't say your spirit is in heaven, you "assume" that. for as it said, God is everywhere. in heaven .... drum roll .. in hell to.. (smile). and in the sea also, scripture, Psalms 139:7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psalms 139:9 "If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psalms 139:10 "Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

BOTTOM LINE, just be glad that you're in the Lord, and in his "remembrance" unto eternal life, alive or sleep. and one more scripture to debunk, 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". not that when you die you go stright to heaven and be ith the Lord, no, if dead, you're asleep in memory until he returns and gives us NEW BODIES to live in which is at his shout, and call for you/us out of sleep if dead at the time. and then instantly when you/us awake, as if we had just laid our head down to sleep, and then YES, you will be with the Lord then.

PICJAG.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

HEBREWS 12: ALL THOSE PRESENTLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM

THE NEW JERUSALEM IS IN HEAVEN
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

1. WITH COUNTLESS ANGELS SURROUNDING GOD
...and to an innumerable company of angels...

2. WITH ALL THE NT SAINTS WHO HAVE PASSED ON
23 To the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in Heaven...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

3. WITH GOD ENTHRONED IN HEAVEN
...and to God the Judge of all...

4. WITH ALL THE OT SAINTS BROUGHT OUT OF HADES
...and to the spirits of just men made perfect...[Note: these are souls and spirits in Heaven]

5. WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR MEDIATOR
...24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant...

6. WITH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SPRINKLED ON THE MERCY SEAT
...and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is a powerful passage which has been grossly neglected.

You are in error. The scriptures show that those humans(Apostles,Disciples,etc) that are resurrected to heaven get a resurrection like Jesus who was rewarded with immortality and inherited incorruption when resurrected. So those humans who are resurrected into heaven they also are rewarded with immortality and inherit incorruption. The point is, the scriptures show that Jesus was resurrected a life giving spirit. He is no longer a soul but instead a powerful spiritual being who has been rewarded with immortality and inherited incorruption. Souls are not immortal nor have they inherited incorruption so those that get a resurrection like Jesus will be powerful spiritual beings who have been rewarded with immortality and inherited incorruption. They are not souls. The scriptures show that souls are not immortal.

 

[101G]

for there are only two resurrection, and if the first resurrection has already occured, then we who now live are most miserable. for, Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

and as said, there is only two. so if the NEW JERUSALEM is complete, (with resurrected saints already)n then we who live now is lost. (that's if the first resurrection had already happen). but it has not yet happen. thank God.

PICJAG.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The scriptures say the soul that is sinning dies, so according to the scriptures Souls do die, God can kill them. The flood is a testament to that fact. The scriptures nowhere say man has an immortal soul. Plus the scriptures show that the righteous as well as the unrighteous die because of sin. The only hope that mankind has, "righteous as well as unrighteous" is the resurrection. The word resurrection means standing up to life again. How can someone stand back up to life again if as you say they are already living in heaven, and why would a righteous person who's in Heaven be resurrected out of heaven, what's the point if such a person is in heaven already? I think it was Paul who said he had the hope of the resurrection of the righteous as well as the unrighteous at Acts 24:15

The Soul does not die at all, such maybe seen to be dead in one because it's not been activated, but it's still their.
How can one kill a Soul, they can't and Jesus says so, once activated = born again of the Holy Spirit.
A person who is not born again Soul is like Jesus says of one who it would of been better to of had a millstone around his neck and cast it into the sea, this is because the Soul is lost to it's purpose, so it's whole function was devoid of the glory of God and the person was as a dumb Beast and that Soul is in Hellfire for ever.

 

[Stranger]

Yes I am using the book Ecclesiastes. It's not my fault you don't see the book of Ecclesiastes as it should be seen. You are the one who says there is no death, by the way you define it. You're saying God put a spiritual person in the human body at creation which means not only was this spiritual person alive before God put this spirit in man but this spirit continues living when the human dies. You're the one who is saying there is no death. You're saying that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence. You're the one who is saying there is no death. After all you are the one who is saying that Adam is in Heaven, not me. You saying Adam is in heaven is completely against Scripture. The scripture says very clearly that the ones that will be heaven first is the Apostles and disciples of Jesus who have died in the Lord. So you saying Adam is in heaven is against scripture.

(Ecc. 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

I do use the book of (Ecclesiastes) correctly.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

No, this isn't true what you say and you have used the scriptures to say that person's don't die but continue living. That's calling God a liar. So you can continue to interpret the scriptures the way you are all you want to but you're still saying death is just another doorway to another plain of existence, therefore you're saying the person continues living. If you wish to continue to call God a liar by the way you believe that's on you, but death is the opposite of life. The living are aware that they are living the dead are not aware of nothing, their thoughts perish.

Ephesians 4:8 had nothing to do with taken any person or persons to heaven, it concerns men who are given as gifts to the congregation.
Elders are a provision from Jehovah to look after his sheep. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Jehovah’s sheep are dear to him—so dear, in fact, that he purchased them with the precious blood of Jesus. Little wonder, then, that Jehovah is pleased when elders treat his flock with tenderness. (Acts 20:28, 29)

Such elders are referred to in the Bible as “gifts in men.” (Ephesians 4:8) When you think of a gift, you think of something given to fill a need or to bring happiness to the one receiving it. An elder can be considered a gift when he uses his abilities to provide needed assistance and to contribute to the happiness of the flock. How can he do this? The answer, found in Paul’s words at Ephesians 4:7-16, magnifies Jehovah’s loving concern for his sheep.

When Paul used the expression “gifts in men,” he was quoting King David, who had said of Jehovah: “You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men.” (Psalm 68:18) After the Israelites had been in the Promised Land for some years, Jehovah figuratively “ascended” Mount Zion and made Jerusalem the capital of the kingdom of Israel with David as its king. But who were the “gifts in the form of men”? They were men taken captive during the conquest of the land. Some of these captives were later made available to the Levites to help with the work at the tabernacle.—Ezra 8:20.

In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul indicates that the psalmist’s words have a greater fulfillment in the Christian congregation. Paraphrasing Psalm 68:18, Paul writes: “Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: ‘When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.’” (Ephesians 4:7, 8) Paul here applies this psalm to Jesus as God’s representative. Jesus “conquered the world” by his faithful course. (John 16:33) He also triumphed over death and over Satan by reason of God’s resurrecting him from the dead. (Acts 2:24; Hebrews 2:14) In 33 C.E., the resurrected Jesus ascended “far above all the heavens”—higher than all other heavenly creatures. (Ephesians 4:9, 10;Philippians 2:9-11) As a conqueror, Jesus took “captives” from the enemy. How so?
When on earth, Jesus demonstrated his power over Satan by delivering those held in bondage to the demons. It was as if Jesus invaded Satan’s house, bound him, and seized his goods. (Matthew 12:22-29) Just think, once resurrected and entrusted with ‘all authority in heaven and on earth,’ what plundering Jesus could then do! (Matthew 28:18) Starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., the ascended Jesus, as God’s representative, began despoiling Satan’s house by ‘carrying away captives’—men who had long been in slavery to sin and death and under Satan’s control. These “captives” willingly became “Christ’s slaves, doing the will of God whole-souled.” (Ephesians 6:6) Jesus, in effect, wrenched them from Satan’s control and, on Jehovah’s behalf, gave them to the congregation as “gifts in men.” Imagine Satan’s helpless rage as they were snatched from under his very nose!

No, (Luke 16:19-31) is not a parable. It is a true story as I have showed. The dead before the Cross went to Sheol, Hades. After Christ descended into Hades He led captivity captive as (Eph. 4:8) says. He rescued them from the Paradise section of Hades. (Luke 23:43)

You do not understand what death is.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No, (Luke 16:19-31) is not a parable. It is a true story as I have showed. The dead before the Cross went to Sheol, Hades. After Christ descended into Hades He led captivity captive as (Eph. 4:8) says. He rescued them from the Paradise section of Hades. (Luke 23:43)

You do not understand what death is.

Stranger

In the account, at Luke 16:19-31, is it literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. That doesn't sound reasonable to me. If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

 

[Stranger]

In the account, at Luke 16:19-31, is it literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. That doesn't sound reasonable to me. If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

As I said before, no need to name the beggar if it is just a parable. And Christ spoke of it as an actual event. Not as a parable. The Jerusalem Bibles notes are not inspired. The Jerusalem Bible includes the apocryphal books also which I reject.

Nothing wrong with the story being true and literal. The name of paradise, also referred to Abrahams bosom, doesn't conflict with anything. That a mere drop of water would bring relief shows the extreme torment the rich man was in. No contradiction. Only in your head.

Just because Jesus gave this account of Lazarus and the rich man on behalf of the Pharisees, and that the Pharisees should identify themselves as the rich man in the story, doesn't mean in any way that the story was not true; that it did not really occur. Just like with Paul's use of an allegory in (Gal. 4:22-26) didn't mean that Abraham didn't exist. Or, that Ishmael, and Isaac, and Hagar, and Sarah, didn't exist.

Go ahead and symbolize if you want. You can come up with any interpretation you want to when you do that. Which is what you do anyway.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In Luke chapter 16 it says about the beggar and the rich man:

it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. And in Haʹdes [Sheol, Hebrew; Shiul, Syriac] he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.

Now I ask myself, Did Jesus really mean that the angels carried the dead body of Lazarus, full of sores, to the cave of Machpelah in front of the city of Hebron and there laid the dead Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, crowding out Abraham’s dead wife Sarah? Furthermore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all in Haʹdes or Sheol. So did Jesus really mean that there is flaming fire in Haʹdes or Sheol, the place in which, Jesus said, the dead and buried “rich man” found himself? And does that flaming fire torment certain ones in Haʹdes or Sheol and not torment others? Can those in Haʹdes or Sheol see one another and talk back and forth across a “great gulf”? And is there water down in Haʹdes or Sheol into which a person can dip the finger?
The Holy Bible says that Haʹdes or Sheol is not the location of Paradise for some dead ones and of fiery torment for others, but that it is the place of silence and of inactivity in every respect; that the dead ones there do not speak even to laud and praise God, and that there is no work nor device nor knowledge nor wisdom in Haʹdes or Sheol.—Isa. 38:18; Eccl. 9:5, 10; Ps. 6:5.

I believe myself to be an honest-hearted person so I see that in Luke 16:19-31 Jesus Christ was telling a parable or pictorial illustration. I believe that Jesus was using Abraham as a picture of the heavenly Father, Jehovah God, who made the promise to his earthly friend Abraham to bless all the families of the earth by means of Abraham’s seed or offspring. Just as Abraham at God’s command presented his son Isaac for human sacrifice, so Jehovah God actually sacrificed his Son Jesus Christ, the real promised Seed of Abraham for the blessing of all the nations of the earth.—Gen. 22:1-18; John 3:16.

Accordingly, the “certain rich man” and the “certain beggar named Lazarus” were not literal men; they simply pictured two classes of people. The one class died to its favored position with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, and thereafter had a tormenting religious experience on earth. The other class died to its unfavorable religious condition and was conducted by angelic power into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, through his sacrificed Son, Jesus Christ. This understanding and explanation of Jesus’ prophetic parable is based upon the actual historical experience of the two general religious classes among the natural descendants of the patriarch Abraham in Jesus’ day.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in Sheol are awaiting the fulfillment of Revelation 20:12-14 by their resurrection from the dead, when Sheol will give them up. Long ago when Abraham obediently attempted to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac, he displayed his own faith in the resurrection of the dead. Hebrews 11:17-19 tells us so in these words: “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son, although it had been said to him: ‘What will be called “your seed” will be through Isaac.’ But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.”

 

[GISMYS_7]

Why not believe God's Word?
Absent from the body =present with the Lord!

 

[Dcopymope]

Why not believe God's Word?
Absent from the body =present with the Lord!

Sure, but the context of that verse you quoted is not about where you go immediately after death, the scripture is about the promised glorified body. Its about our present body being clothed with the body prepared for us in heaven.....so that we can be "present with the Lord".

(2 Corinthians 5:1-8) "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {2} For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: {3} If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. {4} For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. {5} Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {6} Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: {7} (For we walk by faith, not by sight{8} We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Nothing here even implies "soul sleep", or our spirit being in heaven apart from the body, it rather proves the exact opposite. If we truly lived on as pure spirit, then this scripture would be worded in an entirely different manner. The only time it speaks of the saints being in heaven at all is when they are described as souls, not spirits, and the soul is the union of body and spirit, not separate entities. We aren't considered living beings in disunity, because we weren't designed as "living spirits" to start with and we never will be.

(Revelation 6:9-11) "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Again, souls, not spirits. Also, notice Paul says that even though our bodies are dissolved, that exact same earthly tabernacle is still "clothed upon" with the tabernacle from heaven. What does this prove scientifically? As far as I can see this backs up the law of conservation of Mass, which says that atoms, the thing everything is made of can neither be created nor destroyed, it only changes into another form. So even though a body appears to be "dissolved", its technically still there, otherwise, God wouldn't have anything to "cloth upon" with the body from heaven to start with.

The only time in history that matter, the atom will actually be destroyed for good, is when heaven and earth passes away, and the souls of those not in the book of life is destroyed in the second death. Now I can hope that this will put this issue of "soul sleep", or this idea of living in heaven as some disembodied spirit to rest forever, but knowing how stubborn people are in wanting to believe whatever false doctrine their itching ears desires to hear, I know that hoping people show a little honesty for once in their lives in what they claim to believe in is pretty much in vain.

 

[DNB]

The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or being spiritually unconscience (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

No Dan (if I may), 'sleep' is not a euphemism for death. No inspired writer would ever use such an inaccurate expression, to speak of something that is corrupting to annihilation.
Plus, flesh with no soul or vitality, does not sleep, think, dream or awaken. Dead matter has no such animation.
Thus, all the passages that you quoted were referring to the spirit of the corpse. Upon death and decay of the body, the spirit remains dormant and latent, waiting for the trumpet blast of Christ. Of which, those that are asleep, will be the first to rise and meet him in the air, followed by those who will be still alive at his coming.