So what does the divinity of Jesus really mean, anyway?

[Wrangler]

Jesus is God!

Laps.

If Jesus is God, then who is his son?

 

[Jack]

Sorry Bob, did not yet back with you...until now

It's seems you have the verse Col 2:9 locked in as a prooftext as the key to the definition of divinity for Jesus - as God Almighty? Nothing could be further from the truth...for these and other reasons..a little long-winded..I would reread my post again to maybe grasp what I'm saying here..

For your way of thinking, Colossians 2:9 basically rests, or lives or dies on two words: θεοτης (theotēs, 'deity') and κατοικεω (katoikeō, 'to dwell').

theotēs =>divinity or divine nature..used only once in the entire Bible

We must look at the context therefore to know how Paul used this Greek word for his audience and the local culture.

Also, Katoikeō (to dwell) does not imply that the Godhood (whatever that really means) inherently dwells in Christ, so therefore Christ is inherently God.

Katoikeō is also used to describe the spirit of God dwelling within believers (see James 4:5) and Christ dwelling within believers (see Ephesians 3:17).
Similarly, God is said to "dwell" (katoikein) in Jerusalem (Psalm 67:17 LXX), but he doesn't inherently dwell there.

Additionally, the word theotēs does not imply being God (YHWH), although it can refer to a lesser level of divinity.
Although this word is a hapax legomenon in the New Testament, in contemporary Koine Greek texts theotēs describes a secondary, derived divinity which can be given and taken away (e.g., from demigods of Greek myth) (Plutarch, De defectu oraculorum 10 [415C]; Lucian, Icaromenippus 9). Also the expression 'dia theotēs' => for religious reasons...

So, in Colossians 2:9, Paul isn't saying that Jesus is inherently God (YHWH); instead, he seems to be saying that the quality of divinity somehow dwells within Jesus. In or alongside his own human spirit and in his mind.

It can easily be best understood by reflecting this same reality written in John 1:32: "I saw the Spirit coming down as a dove, and it remained upon him." And also in John 3:34: "The one whom God sent speaks the words of God, because God gives the spirit to him without measure."

God gave Jesus authority to perform all types of miracles and even forgive sins. He was filled (without measure) with the Spirit of God.
So therefore, Jesus had the fullness of God's divine nature within him. He literally walked, ate and slept with it as his invisible power.

And it may surprise you that every genuine believer also has this same 'fullness' of the God's divine nature in them (see 2 Peter 1:4) as Christ (because of Christ's indwelling).

(Eph 3:19) and to truly know and understand the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

And of course we are not God either...or of his divine nature either, intrinsically...

Further, this 'fullness' is a partial possession, meaning one can only have a portion of it. And it make nonsense to say the fullness of something/someone that is indivisible, as God is this one. This is why you never will read the fullness of the Father, God, because by definition he is already intrinsically full of himself, his own nature already. So verse 9 is not talking about Jesus the Christ being God with his divinity at all. It all about God GIVING Christ part of his fullness for his purpose here.

Read Col 1:18-20..

(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; so that in all things he might have the pre-eminence.
(Col 1:19) For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell,
(Col 1:20) and through him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross- yes, to reconcile all things through him, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens. The Context of Paul’s Preaching

And then John 3:34-35 for more clarification.
(Joh 3:34) For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He does not give him the Spirit by measure.
(Joh 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

To cut this short....

If Christ were God Almighty of his level of divinity, then it would make nonsense to say 'the fullness' of God dwelt within him, because he being God already.

Think about that one for a few minutes...

last note....Paul was saying to the Colossians, stop with your philosophies and traditions, look to Christ as he is complete IN God, In HIS FULNESS, In HIS divinity and IN HIS power. We draw from Christ this way IN our walk IN Christ.

Blessings...APAK

Are you JW?

 

[Jack]

Laps.

I quoted 3 verses that prove Jesus is God. Want more?

 

[Wrangler]

I quoted 3 verses that prove Jesus is God. Want more?

Yes:

1. A simple answer to my question.
2. An actual verse that says Jesus is God, not verses that don’t say it even though you claim they do.

For instance, Mark1:1 reads Jesus is the son of god.

 

[Lambano]

No they are not interchangeable according to their doctrine and model of belief. They are of different personalities, now if a personality still means something of value and identity.

Whoa, stop right there. Not "personalities". "PERSONS". A "person" in the human realm is a discrete unit of the organism called "Humanity".

Those who are more familiar with the history of the doctrine can correct me, but my understanding is that the Greek "hypostasis" translated to "persona" in Latin, which was transliterated to "person" in English. A hypostasis is NOT a "personality".

 

[brightfame52]

Yes:

1. A simple answer to my question.
2. An actual verse that says Jesus is God, not verses that don’t say it even though you claim they do.

For instance, Mark1:1 reads Jesus is the son of god.

Theres not a verse that simply says Jesus is God, and not one that simply says He is not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Whoa, stop right there. Not "personalities". "PERSONS".

A distinction without a difference. The doctrine of the trinity is inherently contradictory claim that God is a 3-person person.

Not only is the Trinity doctrine inherently contradictory, it contradicts explicit Scripture. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. What does this say about the Trinity God?

Finally, this thread is only about the divinity of Jesus, where Scripture implies we are a vessel, where Jesus’ God’s spirit dwells in him and us.

 

[Jack]

Yes:

1. A simple answer to my question.
2. An actual verse that says Jesus is God, not verses that don’t say it even though you claim they do.

For instance, Mark1:1 reads Jesus is the son of god.

Guess you missed Heb 1 God called His Son "God"!

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"!

 

[Ritajanice]

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◄ John 4:34 ►

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Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. New Living Translation Then Jesus explained: “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work. English Standard Version Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. Berean Standard Bible Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work. Berean Literal Bible Jesus says to them, "My food is that I should do the will of the One having sent Me, and should finish His work. As we can see Jesus came to do the will of his Father. What I find incredible, is that Jesus never once wavered from doing the will of His Father...he was in perfect harmony with the will of God....God knew from the beginning that his Son would accomplish all that was asked of him. Praise God for Jesus....whose name has been exalted above all other names, he is the example that we are to follow....he is the first among many Brothers and Sisters.

 

[Jack]

​

◄ John 4:34 ►

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As we can see Jesus came to do the will of his Father.

You should have kept reading.

John 14:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

 

[Wrangler]

Theres not a verse that simply says Jesus is God, and not one that simply says He is not God.

Agreed. The burden is on the one making the positive claim.
H0. The new product is improved.
Ha. The new product is NOT improved.

 

[Jack]

Kingdom Hall has invaded the thread!

 

[Ritajanice]

You should have kept reading.

John 14:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Yes, because Jesus represented his Father.

Just like we are representatives for God...a Born Again is being conformed into the image of Jesus..?

No one comes to the Father except through the Son?

 

[Jack]

Yes, because Jesus represented his Father.

Just like we are representatives for God...a Born Again is being conformed into the image of Jesus..?

No one comes to the Father except through the Son?

Try reading it again.

John 14:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

 

[APAK]

Whoa, stop right there. Not "personalities". "PERSONS". A "person" in the human realm is a discrete unit of the organism called "Humanity".

Those who are more familiar with the history of the doctrine can correct me, but my understanding is that the Greek "hypostasis" translated to "persona" in Latin, which was transliterated to "person" in English. A hypostasis is NOT a "personality".

So what are you saying, that a person can have a personality of another person. Please get to the point...thx And I don't think 'humanity' is defined as a particular person either.

And I never had this so-called hypostasis idea (of two natures, of two spirits of two persons) in mind in any of my posts thus far.

 

[Ritajanice]

Try reading it again.

John 14:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Yes Jack..Jesus was a perfect representation of His Father...

How could he be such a perfect representation of His Father...because his will and Spirit was in perfect line with his Father’s Spirit.

How does a child of God become in perfect line and harmony with the Spirit?

We are being conformed into Jesus image?

They must be Born Again, ?

Anyway, I’ve posted what I believe the Spirit has asked me to do...if you want to discuss what it means to be Born Again, I can start another thread if you like?.. @Jack ?

Sorry @APAK ..for taking your topic off track..

 

[APAK]

Kingdom Hall has invaded the thread!

I would like you not to thrash this thread Jack with your name-calling....your words say this. If you have not anything to say regarding the divinity of God and Christ then please stop posting, and especially slamming others you do not know are here or not....there are at least 3 Unitarians that have posted here that are not of your label you called out.

 

[Jack]

Yes Jack..Jesus was a perfect representation of His Father...

How could he be such a perfect representation of His Father...because his will and Spirit was in perfect line with his Father’s Spirit.

How does a child of God become in perfect line and harmony with the Spirit?

We are being conformed into Jesus image?

They must be Born Again, ?

Anyway, I’ve posted what I believe the Spirit has asked me to do...if you want to discuss what it means to be Born Again, I can start another thread if you like?.. @Jack ?

Sorry @APAK ..for taking your topic off track..

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created!

Jesus is God!

 

[Jack]

I would like you not to thrash this thread Jack with your name-calling....your words say this.

What name calling? Whom did I call names?????

If you have not anything to say regarding the divinity of God and Christ then please stop posting, and especially slamming others you do not know are here or not....there are at least 3 Unitarians that have posted here that are not of your label you called out.

So you want me to stop posting Scriptures? Nah.

John 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh ...

Jesus is God.

 

[Ritajanice]

What name calling?

You have asked a few of us if we are JW.when I have stated to you that I’m Born Again?

Why not start a thread about Born Again..as I don’t think that you understand what that means.

If I start one, will you partake in it @Jack ?