Sinless perfection is easy

[ChristinaL]

I have no idea why you think I say people can live their entire life sinlessly. All I said is while we are IN HIM we can't sin. We are sinless at that time. Once we are lured out of fellowship with him, we sin. That is also why I said I have been sinning for 66 years.

In Him we CAN sin because we, all of us, will always stumble. We arent sinless, goodness man nobody is, do you not get that? We just dont live a life of sin. You need to choose your words more carefully

 

[KUWN]

In Him we CAN sin because we, all of us, will always stumble. We arent sinless, goodness man nobody is, do you not get that? We just dont live a life of sin. You need to choose your words more carefully

ChristinaL, Have you read my OP? What does this mean; Whoever abides In Him DOES NOT SIN? John says we don't sin IN HIM, which is simply a term meaning we are in fellowship without any known sins. In this position, we can not sin. That is what the verse says. You can't have unconfessed sin while walking in the Light. I explained that by looking at James 1.14-16. Obviously I believe we sin, but we have to be lured out of IN HIM to then sin. I think you are getting stuck on the phrase IN HIM as if this has something to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation in this passage, it deals with fellowship. Be sure to read James 1 passages.

 

[ChristinaL]

ChristinaL, Have you read my OP? What does this mean; Whoever abides In Him DOES NOT SIN? John says we don't sin IN HIM, which is simply a term meaning we are in fellowship without any known sins. In this position, we can not sin. That is what the verse says. You can't have unconfessed sin while walking in the Light. I explained that by looking at James 1.14-16. Obviously I believe we sin, but we have to be lured out of IN HIM to then sin. I think you are getting stuck on the phrase IN HIM as if this has something to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation in this passage, it deals with fellowship. Be sure to read James 1 passages.

We all have unconfessed sin to some degree. Can you honestly believe that we can remember every little slipup? And YES I did read you original OP - I stand by what I say that you need to choose your words a bit more carefully. I am not getting stuck on anything. And I also made it clear there is a difference between living in sin and living in Christ but stumbling occasionally

 

[KUWN]

We all have unconfessed sin to some degree. Can you honestly believe that we can remember every little slipup? And YES I did read you original OP - I stand by what I say that you need to choose your words a bit more carefully. I am not getting stuck on anything. And I also made it clear there is a difference between living in sin and living in Christ but stumbling occasionally

I will end my involvement in this post by simply quoting 1 John 3.6a Whoever abides in him does not sin. The burden of proof is yours to accept because you have said: Whoever abides in him CAN sin.

 

[Bob Estey]

1 John 3.6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin. Can this be true of us?

Most translations add something close to "whosoever abides in him does not CONTINUE to sin."

I've been sinning for 66 years so I hope there is an alternate understanding of this text. There is.

By adding CONTINUE to sin you take away from John's method of writing. John uses opposites all the time, such as light/dark, sin/righteousness, life/death, etc. The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

When we are "in him" we are said to be in fellowship. We continue in fellowship until we knowingly sin. But we can not sin "in him" (in fellowship). What happens is told to us by James. Let's look at how James handles this:

1.14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires 1.15 Then when desire conceives, it give birth to sin...

When a believer is in fellowship, the only way he can sin is if he is lured out of the light of fellowship (in him) and into darkness. This is when he can sin. When he is in fellowship and abides in his new nature, he can not sin. He has to be lured out first before he is capable of sinning. So, John is saying that we can not sin at all, not that we can not keep on sinning. Note also in vs 5 where we are told that in him is no sin (not continually sinning, but sin).

I wrote a long article our here (or in some other forum) that dealt with Positional Truth. I there explain in more details what Position Truth is. For example, Paul says in Eph that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. We are not actually in heaven, but by virtue of Position Truth we enjoy all the benefits now, so much so that Paul says were ARE in heaven seated with Christ.

I think it's possible to repent of all our sin here in this lifetime. It doesn't seem easy to me, though.

 

[KUWN]

I think it's possible to repent of all our sin here in this lifetime. It doesn't seem easy to me, though.

You are only responsible for the known sins. When you confess a sin, 1 John 1.9 says he cleanses you of ALL sins. Once confessed, you return to being in fellowship with Christ (walking in the light) and the only way you can sin is by being lured out of being in the light and out to the darkness, where sin takes place. See James 1.

 

[FearTheLord]

The solution to the apparent dilemma is known as Positional Truth. To abide "in him" is a reference to being in fellowship. When we are in fellowship and then sin, we are out of fellowship and must confess that sin to restore our fellowship with Christ.

I agree with this, but in order to abide in Christ we must obey his commandments. It's not burdensome (1John 5:3), so it's not difficult to completely stop sinning. It's just a matter of loving one another. We have the Holy Spirit to cut us free from sin and allow us to walk in obedience (Romans 6-8).

[Jhn 15:10 NASB95] 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.​

[1Jo 3:23-24 NASB95] 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

[1Jo 5:3 NASB95] 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.​

​

God promises to provide a way out of any sin that we might be tempted to commit, so we really shouldn't be viewing sin as an inevitability as born-again believers.

[1Co 10:13 NASB95] 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.​

​

[1Pe 4:1-2 NASB95] 1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.​

 

[Gottservant]

You don't have to keep confessing, if your witness is bold (selah)

 

[Taken]

No, but I have been sinning for 66 years.

What you are claiming is For 66 years you have NOT believed IN God.

 

[Lambano]

There it is, those who abide in him do not sin

What does that mean?

How do you get there?

How does that stop us from sinning in thought, word, and deed? How does that change our self-centered, self-righteous, self-indulgent, and self-deceiving nature?

 

[quietthinker]

What does that mean?

How do you get there?

How does that stop us from sinning in thought, word, and deed? How does that change our self-centered, self-righteous, and self-deceiving nature?

The big question is (or is it the elephant in the room?) how do we define sin?
Moses had a definition. It was valid, could it have been 'primitive'? perhaps for traumatised short sightedness?

For example, one might never commit adultery by running off with another but does that qualify as 'no adultery' or a trusting, happy marriage/ relationship?
One might never shed blood as did Cain (murder, in case it was missed) but hating another kills just as surely. It kills not only the victim but the protagonist also.

Jesus raises the bar and sin becomes a scarier prospect.....and definitely not 'primitive'. It addresses the thoughts and intents of the heart which go above and beyond the ten .......and which of the tight shorts want to go there....even the ones who disenfranchise The Ten!

 

[Lambano]

The big question is (or is it the elephant in the room?) how do we define sin?

If I understand how Paul uses the term in Romans 2, 7, and 8, he sees Sin with a capital S as a power in us that corrupts our thoughts, our words, and our deeds.

 

[quietthinker]

If I understand how Paul uses the term in Romans 2, 7, and 8, he sees Sin with a capital S as a power in us that corrupts our thoughts, our words, and our deeds.

hey hey!

 

[Taken]

I have no idea why you think I say people can live their entire life sinlessly.

Humans CAN NOT live their entire lives “sinless”…
Humans ARE naturally born IN Sin.

All I said is while we are IN HIM we can't sin.

We are NEVER “IN” Him….”UNLESS” He “IS IN” us.
ONCE “HE IS IN us”…we CAN SIN “NO MORE”…
Sin “NO MORE” does NOT MEAN “SINLESS”.
Sin “NO MORE”…means Your SIN has been FORGIVEN…Covered with Gods LIGHT…thus which the DARKNESS OF your FORGIVEN SIN, is NO LONGER VISIBLE or REMEMBERED.

We are sinless at that time.

No, we are NOT sinless. We are FORGIVEN, covered, and our sin remembered, no more.

Once we are lured out of fellowship with him, we sin.

Lured out of Fellowship “WITH” the Lord “IS” possible for those “WITH” the Lord.

Lured out of Fellowship “IN” the Lord “IS” NOT POSSIBLE for those “IN” Christ.

The difference BETWEEN “WITH”….IS the man has MADE NO COMMITMENT of Belief…Such a man can believe, doubt, be swayed, believe, deny, and roll on that path his whole life….

A man who HAS exercised his Freewill to MAKE a Heartful Commitment of BELIEF TO the Lord God…
NO LONGER is “tasked” to KEEP his Commitment … By, Through, Of his own human power, strength, determination….

That itty bitty word “IN”….is not ONLY the man “IN” Christ….but ALSO Christ, Gods SPIRIT….“IN” the man….

At this POINT…(OSAS)….IT IS “HE” who IS the source of ALMIGHTY SUPREME POWER….that KEEPS the individual IN BELIEF….forever.

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

A human man WILL NOT Experience BEING “SINLESS”…until his body is RAISED UP “glorified”…

A Saved man WILL experience Forgiveness, and Justification to be RAISED UP in a glorified body….

AND such a “saved” man shall experience Gods POWER to forever KEEP that man IN BELIEF….as that man exercised his freewill to willingly Accept and Take The Lords Offering of His Gift of Salvation.

That is also why I said I have been sinning for 66 years.

A mans SIN AGAINST God and His Word….
“IS unbelief IN God and His Word”….

Is that the SIN you are describing you have committed for 66 years and continue to commit?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Humans CAN NOT live their entire lives “sinless”…
Humans ARE naturally born IN Sin.



We are NEVER “IN” Him….”UNLESS” He “IS IN” us.
ONCE “HE IS IN us”…we CAN SIN “NO MORE”…
Sin “NO MORE” does NOT MEAN “SINLESS”.
Sin “NO MORE”…means Your SIN has been FORGIVEN…Covered with Gods LIGHT…thus which the DARKNESS OF your FORGIVEN SIN, is NO LONGER VISIBLE or REMEMBERED.



No, we are NOT sinless. We are FORGIVEN, covered, and our sin remembered, no more.



Lured out of Fellowship “WITH” the Lord “IS” possible for those “WITH” the Lord.

Lured out of Fellowship “IN” the Lord “IS” NOT POSSIBLE for those “IN” Christ.

The difference BETWEEN “WITH”….IS the man has MADE NO COMMITMENT of Belief…Such a man can believe, doubt, be swayed, believe, deny, and roll on that path his whole life….

A man who HAS exercised his Freewill to MAKE a Heartful Commitment of BELIEF TO the Lord God…
NO LONGER is “tasked” to KEEP his Commitment … By, Through, Of his own human power, strength, determination….

That itty bitty word “IN”….is not ONLY the man “IN” Christ….but ALSO Christ, Gods SPIRIT….“IN” the man….

At this POINT…(OSAS)….IT IS “HE” who IS the source of ALMIGHTY SUPREME POWER….that KEEPS the individual IN BELIEF….forever.

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

A human man WILL NOT Experience BEING “SINLESS”…until his body is RAISED UP “glorified”…

A Saved man WILL experience Forgiveness, and Justification to be RAISED UP in a glorified body….

AND such a “saved” man shall experience Gods POWER to forever KEEP that man IN BELIEF….as that man exercised his freewill to willingly Accept and Take The Lords Offering of His Gift of Salvation.



A mans SIN AGAINST God and His Word….
“IS unbelief IN God and His Word”….

Is that the SIN you are describing you have committed for 66 years and continue to commit?

Glory to God,
Taken

cut and dried, hmmm. Is this legal 'baccy?

 

[Taken]

cut and dried, hmmm. Is this legal 'baccy?

Does cut and dried legal tobacco have something relevant to do with Scriptural integrity?

 

[quietthinker]

Does cut and dried legal tobacco have something relevant to do with Scriptural integrity?

chewing I think...or is it smoking?

 

[Johann]

Does cut and dried legal tobacco have something relevant to do with Scriptural integrity?

Ignore him @Taken

J.

 

[quietthinker]

Ignore him @Taken

J.

Has your theology taken you to this point Johann?

 

[quietthinker]

Ignore him @Taken

J.

I know, out of the box statements and ideas don't sit well with conservative thought processes.