Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

[Aunty Jane]

I see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the trinity and not confusing at all - like Neapolitan ice cream, they're three different flavors but they're all ice cream.

But shes right in that the term "trinity" isn't in the Bible. The perception and understanding comes from reading the Bible. It is also interesting and worth mentioning that it was three "people" who came to Abraham in Genesis.

If only God were ice cream.... but since he's not.....I'd like to know why "God the Father", who is spoken about in the Bible quite frequently, didn't become "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" till hundreds of years after Jesus died?
If Jesus was Jewish and the Jews had no belief in a three headed god...then where did he cone from? Jesus never spoke of him.

So I'll tag @Aunty Jane and maybe it will help things make more sense.

Thanks for the tag.....:)

Its a useful term to make the concept easier to understand. It comes from the Latin word Trinitas, which just means "the number three."

Did you know that trinities of gods were found throughout pagan religions long before Christ came to the earth?
Egypt for example had this....

Osiris Horus and Isis...

Asia has their trinity too....

Northern hemisphere trinity gods.

Trinities can be traced back to BABYLON...

Not only is the trinity non-Biblical.....it is highly offensive to the one God described at Psalm 83:18....
"May they know that You alone—
whose name is Yahweh—
are the Most High over all the earth." (HCSB)

The "One God of Israel. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Not once in all of scripture is Jesus ever called Yahweh. Not once did he ever claim to be God or even an equal to his Father.

The trinity is woven into scripture where its writers had no such idea when they were putting pen to parchment.

 

[DuckieLady]

If Jesus was Jewish and the Jews had no belief in a three headed god...then where did he cone from? Jesus never spoke of him.

Well the word just means the number three, it's just a word to describe a concept.

Three reason the number is three is because there are three individual attributes of God in the Bible, the three headed false god thing is just a unrelated coincidence from something completely different.

Logically, similarities do not mean anything. They just happen. If there is any correlation at all, it would be that it is demonic and Satan has always mocked everything that belongs to the Lord, right down to Moses' staff.

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am", we have the Father, and the Holy Spirit is described as a person. So these are all three individual parts. (Jesus had to leave in order for us to have the Holy Spirit.)

But there are no other references of any other parts that are God, not even the angels, so we were left with three and Latin is just kind of a big deal.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I deduct from this reply you sympathise with the JW position? is this correct? ......and may I add....what is impossible for man is possible for God....Luke 18:27

Sympathize?

NO! I heartily agree! I see no such teaching in the Bible. Obscure verses where it is 'suggested' are not statements of fact.
If I do not have a clear statement from either God or his Christ that they share equality with each other and a third person, I'm not subscribing.

All things are possible with God, but not just because man wants them to be.

God's statement to Adam and Eve 'the day you eat thereof you will surely die' is a statement of consequence as opposed to arbitrary judgement.

God gave a command, and Adam broke his law, and thereafter suffered death according to the penalty established before the crime took place.
God barred the way to the tree of life, which was the only means in the garden to guarantee everlasting (but not eternal) life. They would remain mortals.
Death was a gradual winding down of a once perfect human specimen. We see this in the diminishing life spans from the pre-flood era in the hundreds of years, down to a mere 70 or 80 years....and most of us even today don't live past that stated lifespan...

God does not require life for life....he is not beholden to man's system. As stated, Jesus, through who all things were made forgives without requiring anything. He forgives because it is his nature....a nature whose generosity has no comparison.

You are rewriting scripture here....the Mosaic Law was not "man's system" but delivered directly to Moses by God on the mountain. Do you doubt this?

Justice is defined in scripture as liberation of the oppressed ...it is not defined as man would, ie a system of payback.

No, justice is a system of recompense. God's laws required equivalency, not just punishment.
If a person committed a capital crime, he was to forfeit his own life in recompense....with a murderer eliminated from the community, there would not be a repeat of the crime by that person.
If he stole something from his fellow man, he had to pay back more than he stole in recompense.
Justice for the lowly or oppressed did bring about liberation for them, but that was not the full extent of God's justice.
What were Israel's sacrifices for? All prescribed in God's Law. (in great detail)

I don't know where your ideas are coming from, but if you identify as a "Christian", they must of necessity come from God's word. Jesus never taught from his own ideas and he was the Son of God.....where does that leave flawed humans to figure things out on their own?

 

[DuckieLady]

@Aunty Jane just to sum it up more clearly, certain things exist in nature just by existing, but if we name something like "lightning" to describe the nature of that thing, (which in etymology it comes from the middle English word "lightenen" meaning "make bright") does lightning now cease to exist?

Or is it evil now because there was a false god of lightning once named Zeus?

It's a similar way of perceiving reality, but it isn't logical.

 

[quietthinker]

You are rewriting scripture here....the Mosaic Law was not "man's system" but delivered directly to Moses by God on the mountain. Do you doubt this?

Delivered to Moses to and for man. A concession as was eye for an eye, tooth for tooth....as was divorce. What it is not is a treatise on how God must operate or how he operates. Understanding context does not constitute rewriting scripture.....rather it clarifies matters particularly when Jesus addresses it in, 'you have heard said.....' but I say unto you......' Matthew 5:21-48

I don't know where your ideas are coming from, but if you identify as a "Christian", they must of necessity come from God's word. Jesus never taught from his own ideas and he was the Son of God.....where does that leave flawed humans to figure things out on their own?

My ideas come from an understanding of God's revelation of himself in Jesus. I do not superimpose laws given to man onto God as if he is beholden to them.

These laws to man are given as shadows and concessions to a fallen race. Misunderstanding this context sets one up for aberrations.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Three reason the number is three is because there are three individual attributes of God in the Bible, the three headed false god thing is just a unrelated coincidence from something completely different.

I agree that there is "Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but I disagree that these are spoken about as one God. I cannot find a three headed god in the Bible anywhere......and I have studied it thoroughly for over 50 years.

If there is any correlation at all, it would be that it is demonic and Satan has always mocked everything that belongs to the Lord, right down to Moses' staff.

You've got that spot on!

But its not that satan copied off 'Christianity' but that the "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity (that Jesus foretold) copied off satan, because he is the one who sowed those weeds. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am", we have the Father, and the Holy Spirit is described as a person. So these are all three individual parts.

Where in that scripture do you see three gods? In that passage of scripture, the Jews were asking Jesus a question about his age, not about whether he was God or not. He answered them by saying 'before Abraham existed, I existed'. He was saying that he was in existence long before Abraham was even born. "I am" makes no sense in that scripture. It is present tense and they were asking a question about the past.

(Jesus had to leave in order for us to have the Holy Spirit.)

Yet Jesus received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized. It is what empowered him to perform miracles. He returned to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to his Father. Then the Holy Spirit was poured out on 120 people gathered in a room. How do you pour out a person on lots of other people at the same time?
Holy spirit was said to "fill" people.....how can you be filled by a person? Does this make any sense to you? I doesn't to me.

But there are no other references of any other parts that are God, not even the angels, so we were left with three and Latin is just kind of a big deal.

There are no "parts" of God that are mentio0ned in the Bible.
"Yahweh is one" according to the Jewish Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) so how did he get to be three only after Jesus died?

Love your avatar BTW.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

My ideas come from an understanding of God's revelation of himself in Jesus. I do not superimpose laws given to man onto God as if he is beholden to them.

What revelation of himself in Jesus was different? And why was it different?
If God gave man his laws, are they not perfect? Wasn't the fact that the law was perfect and they were not the whole point of it. (Galatians 3:19, 23, 24)

These laws to man are given as shadows and concessions to a fallen race. Misunderstanding this context sets one up for aberrations.

Indeed. If man had not fallen into sin, no law would have been necessary. How many laws were there in the garden?

 

[DuckieLady]

I agree that there is "Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but I disagree that these are spoken about as one God. I cannot find a three headed god in the Bible anywhere......and I have studied it thoroughly for over 50 years.

You've got that spot on!

But its not that satan copied off 'Christianity' but that the "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity (that Jesus foretold) copied off satan, because he is the one who sowed those weeds. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)


Where in that scripture do you see three gods? In that passage of scripture, the Jews were asking Jesus a question about his age, not about whether he was God or not. He answered them by saying 'before Abraham existed, I existed'. He was saying that he was in existence long before Abraham was even born. "I am" makes no sense in that scripture. It is present tense and they were asking a question about the past.


Yet Jesus received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized. It is what empowered him to perform miracles. He returned to heaven to present the value of his sacrifice to his Father. Then the Holy Spirit was poured out on 120 people gathered in a room. How do you pour out a person on lots of other people at the same time?
Holy spirit was said to "fill" people.....how can you be filled by a person? Does this make any sense to you? I doesn't to me.

There are no "parts" of God that are mentio0ned in the Bible.
"Yahweh is one" according to the Jewish Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) so how did he get to be three only after Jesus died?

Love your avatar BTW.....

One God.. Three attributes.

This is in reference to the Holy Spirit:
John 16:14, “He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” so we know he is male and a spiritual person, the personification of God's spirit.

But how do you create the earth in 7 days? Raise Christ from the dead? Impregnate a virgin? Heal the sick or raise the dead?

Nothing needs to make sense to us, by Jeremiah we know there are secrets and mysteries that we will never know - Jeremiah knew, but we won't know, we are not Jeremiah.

That is why the Bible says the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God- our perception is meaningless in our understanding of his creation on earth, let alone of Heavenly things.

Salvation and other things, even the angels find interesting and long to look into. (1 Peter 1:12)

"Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing." - Isaiah 40:26

He is bigger than us

Ps thank you, I love the ducks, they bring cheer

 

[Brakelite]

Actually it becomes really silly when you apply God-given logic, and the fact that there is no trinity in the Bible at all.

The term Trinity as applied to the Godhead means different things to different people. And the understanding or definition of the Godhead differs not only among churches, but among individuals. That there are 3 persons in the Godhead is in dispute, with some claiming this, and others that. And those who agree there are 3, dispute with one another on how they are united. Then there's those who prefer to reject any man made formula, and cleave to scripture relying on John's declaration that one must first believe the Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. Then that provokes discussion also. Some say the Father and Son are the same person. Others that Jesus became a son at the incarnation, others prior to the incarnation. Those who believe the prior, are divided on his long before creation. Some say from eternity this the same age as the Father, others say He was begotten at some point making Him literally a natural Son of God rather than what some say borders on metaphorical. The various arguments are endless. I have my view, but hey, we're talking about the Godhead. We are tramping all over holy ground, I think we need to be so very careful how far we go in our arguments, how far we are willing to condemn those were disagree with, and admit in the end, that to some extent, none of us can define they infinite so all of us must be wrong the moment we step past what it has pleased God to reveal to us. Care. Care. Caution.

 

[Brakelite]

How many laws were there in the garden?

All of them.

 

[quietthinker]

What revelation of himself in Jesus was different? And why was it different?
If God gave man his laws, are they not perfect? Wasn't the fact that the law was perfect and they were not the whole point of it. (Galatians 3:19, 23, 24)

It was different in that it was not couched in 'Law' as in, do this, don't do that.
God desires worship from the heart as defined in his statement to the woman at the well in John 4, specifically vs 23. It is that way in heaven. Love never coerces in any form.

Law is relative to the situation and the type of law further defines its purpose. It is irrelevant to have a law which says don't kill if there has never been any killing or let's say, honour mother and father for angels etc.
A parent might tell their child, don't pick your nose at the table...not a bad law but is it absolute....is it 'perfect'? Maturity determines the right answer......immaturity creates distortions....particularly of the religious kind.

Law is necessary where a problem exists.....Law is better than anarchy however, Grace is better than Law

You state the law was perfect as a fact....that is highly questionable because the answer depends on ones understanding of perfect and it depends on which law....but frankly, I couldn't be bothered flogging that dead horse.

Our focus is to unravel the mystery hidden for ages and that mystery is revealed in Jesus. We are to understand/interpret all scripture through that lens. We are to join the dots in this intended order. If we do not, an erroneous path has been embarked on.

If the 'formula' for interpretation is wrong the whole deck of cards falters or falls so to speak.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have my view, but hey, we're talking about the Godhead. We are tramping all over holy ground, I think we need to be so very careful how far we go in our arguments, how far we are willing to condemn those were disagree with, and admit in the end, that to some extent, none of us can define they infinite so all of us must be wrong the moment we step past what it has pleased God to reveal to us. Care. Care. Caution.

It is my view, after many years of study that "the godhead" is the greatest blasphemy ever perpetrated in the name of Christianity.....something that entered the apostate church long after Jesus death, and altered the very nature of God and his son. That is serious business.

The trinity places someone who is not God, and is not his equal, in the same position as Yahweh, whom the Bible calls "the Most High over all the earth". (Psalm 83:18)
Jesus is never once called Yahweh, and there is no one higher than the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 42:8...
"I am Yahweh, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another
or My praise to idols." (HCSB)

So how does "Care. Care. Caution" figure into that POV

....except to warn people not to commit this travesty and recognize the true God for who and what he is.....and also to recognize the Son of God for who and what he is.
They are each presented in the scriptures very plainly IMO.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All of them.

There was only one law in the garden.....don't touch the fruit of the tree that God has claimed as his own property.

Just one law...and they couldn't keep it.

 

[Curtis]

Billy to Bible study teacher: Why did God have to send himself down to earth to become his own son to sacrifice himself just to convince himself to forgive us?

Because that’s not what happened.

The first member of the trinity sent the second member of the trinity - He didn’t send Himself.

And Jesus’ death on the cross didn’t convince God the father to forgive sins - Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself and PAID THE PENALTY of our sins FOR US.

Jesus had to be 100% sin free to qualify to die for our sins and become our savior, and only god is sinless, which is why the sinless Jesus said HE IS GOOD, after earlier saying truthfully that only god is good.

So god the word had to come to earth as a man to live a sinless life and qualify to take our sins, in our place, and no angel, and no man, could do it.


News flash to all the JWs - being sinless is the epitome of being GOOD.

 

[Curtis]

It is my view, after many years of study that "the godhead" is the greatest blasphemy ever perpetrated in the name of Christianity.....something that entered the apostate church long after Jesus death, and altered the very nature of God and his son. That is serious business.

The trinity places someone who is not God, and is not his equal, in the same position as Yahweh, whom the Bible calls "the Most High over all the earth". (Psalm 83:18)
Jesus is never once called Yahweh, and there is no one higher than the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 42:8...
"I am Yahweh, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another
or My praise to idols." (HCSB)

So how does "Care. Care. Caution" figure into that POV

....except to warn people not to commit this travesty and recognize the true God for who and what he is.....and also to recognize the Son of God for who and what he is.
They are each presented in the scriptures very plainly IMO.

Jesus is fully God and deity in the flesh:


In Colossians 2:9- the word Godhead is Theotes, defined in a Greek lexicon as deity in the flesh:


New Testament Greek Lexicon


Strong's Number: 2320 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

qeoteß from (2316)

Transliterated Word TDNTEntry

Theotes 3:119,322

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

theh-ot'-ace Noun Feminine

Definition:

1. deity - the state of being God, Godhead

Godhead is defined as THE STATE OF BEING GOD - deity.


Thus the meaning of Colossians 2:9is:


In Him dwells ALL the FULNESS of THE STATE OF BEING GOD and DEITY, bodily.

Jesus is fully deity in the flesh.

Period.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

It is my view, after many years of study that "the godhead" is the greatest blasphemy ever perpetrated in the name of Christianity.....something that entered the apostate church long after Jesus death, and altered the very nature of God and his son. That is serious business.

The trinity places someone who is not God, and is not his equal, in the same position as Yahweh, whom the Bible calls "the Most High over all the earth". (Psalm 83:18)
Jesus is never once called Yahweh, and there is no one higher than the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 42:8...
"I am Yahweh, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another
or My praise to idols." (HCSB)

So how does "Care. Care. Caution" figure into that POV

....except to warn people not to commit this travesty and recognize the true God for who and what he is.....and also to recognize the Son of God for who and what he is.
They are each presented in the scriptures very plainly IMO.

so please explain how all three are coexistent, coequal, and coeternal if they are not all God?

 

[Taken]

Billy to Bible study teacher: Why did God have to send himself down to earth to become his own son to sacrifice himself just to convince himself to forgive us?

I do not believe God was Convincing Himself.

God "purposed" in men
What Scripture reveals IS men were Chosen to See Visions and Hear during those Visions and Speak to other men WHAT they "saw and heard"...

Some "other" men listening...THEN also believed, some didn't.

~ That is the first condunrum ...
* Why does one man BELIEVE another man?
* Consider the Logic of the MIND.
...Men tend to BELIEVE, a man he Trusts.
...Men TRUST, men they "KNOW".
...IF a complete "STRANGER" is speaking,
TRUST, has not been established.

Review Scripture...
* The Clan, Group, Family "HEAD", (called a father)...was to be the "SPEAKER" TO...
The clan, group, family.
* Expectation...IS the clan, group, family...
Personally, KNEW, the "father head figure".

Reality...
* The Clan, Group, Family....enlarges, moves to other locations, becomes distanced, chancing will another become "the father head" of the clan, group, family that relocates? Will they continue "speaking" the Word of God? Or will they "blend" into other "cultures and customs" Believe "other" men?

We KNOW the answer...
* Men "easily mimic", what a majority "accepts and does"....BECAUSE why?
* Because "it allows them" to BE ACCEPTED, by the "majority", rather than A TARGET, to be ridiculed, persecuted, outcasted.

Reality...
A swinging door...(historically & presently)
Jews have been a Minority, a Target.
Christians have been a Minority, a Target.

Reality...
HOW LONG...can a man, (public at large, little guy without political power, without wealth power continue to BE Oppressed?"....and NOT SAY, "heck with that...whatever you say (ruling authority)....I'll go along to make my life tolerable?"

GODS SOLUTION...
... God "purposed" IN God
TO be "SEEN" in the likeness AS a man.
TO be "HEARD" in the likeness AS a man
TO "be manifested, seen".
TO "speak, heard".
TO "show, by Exampling, Himself".

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

God purposed in Himself, according to His good pleasure, HOW a man could comprehend by seeing and hearing Gods Mystery of His Will.

God WHO IS an UNSEEN SPIRIT...
Effected Gods Will for mankind, TO HAVE A WAY for mankind TO chose TO "partake" in a SPIRITUAL event, "by, through, of" Gods Spirit..
Who IS Christ, TO BECOME, "IN" a man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ezra]

Another spin on the truth by Aunty Jane. "No trinity in the Bible at all"! Wow! That is a major discovery! Keep it up Aunty Jane and you will be identified with the wolves in sheep's clothing.

wonder what she has to say bout Isiah 6 who will go for us King James Bible
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

who is us since he heard God speaking

 

[Wrangler]

It pivots on the way (how) atonement and payment are seen AJ...How we see...shifts everything!

A subjective world view, devoid of facts, logic or consistent application of principles.

The rescue is performed because of a far deeper motivation.....in the case of God, because of his love (emotional) to the creation made in his image (man) ....God felt....compassion.....this was his motivation.
Blood (his own) was a result of our (man's) hatred.....not his requirement.

It is sickening how Christians today White Wash, sanitize and feminize God and Jesus. NOTE: The complete absence of Scripture to support this god of your imagination. For 1,000's of years, the God of the Bible required blood sacrifice. The famous story of the miraculously conceived Isaac about to be killed by his father Abraham is just one example. Although the boy was spared, the animal was not.

The assertion of a 'far deeper motivation' confuses the means and the ends. Justice is not a matter of 'seeing' but recognizing balance or imbalance. We need not speculate on God's motives. We need to submit and obey.

 

[Grailhunter]

As a whole terms....slogans......chiché that are not in the Bible, are advertisements for false beliefs. The word Trinity is not in the Bible and the phrase Original Sin is not in the Bible. The Trinity was a doctrine developed by the Roman Catholic Church, the belief of which was not originally popular so it was enforced upon pain of death. But eventually it did become popular and eventually there were changes made to the Bible to promote the doctrine.

The background of the doctrine of the Trinity.....During the time of the ecumenical councils, the Bishops of the churches were debating several issues, as well as facing the challenges of the Gnostics and some of these issues were tied to Gnosticism. It was basically issues of comparisons between the Old and New Testaments and the Bishops could not come to terms on them. Rome's role in the ecumenical councils was not to come up with doctrines but to intervene in this sort of thing because Emperor Constantine's was insistent on one church and one belief.

Romans had their "ways" and if there were two opposing view points they would settle it with a third to prove they were smarter. Not that the third was good. In this case the concept of the Trinity answered nothing and settled nothing, instead it defused the issues and prevented the discussion of the topics. Making the discussion in themselves heretical. Because the Catholic Church was in fact a state religion, those opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity were also enemies of the state...and could be executed. This sort of thing happened with the "One Nature" debates except the Empire just enforced the council's decision.

Culturally there were no objection to the belief of a God having three aspects because there were no Jewish Christians on the council. Only Gentiles....Pagan converts to Christianity, so the idea of one God having three aspects was nothing new to them.