SHOULD I BE WATER BAPTIZED?
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Yes these verses speak of Gentiles but they cant be applied to Acts 2:39
I dont know where we can go from here......I will be glad to discuss anything else at any time
thanks
Not sure I follow, when see the above I follow it as I see it below, and see that as being the working out of what is shown us in Isaiah 6:9 as shown us in both Jesus and Paul who were speaking to Israel at the time. For example Isaiah reads,
Isaiah 6
[9] And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
[10] Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
The same is spoken to Israel (to whom Jesus was sent) by Jesus himself
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The same is spoken again to the Jews here by Paul
Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear
with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
And then Paul adds to the above saying
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And so when rereading Isaiah again (as we see it in all the above) as shown us in Jesus and Paul
Isaiah 6
[9] And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
[10] Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed (Which both Jesus and Paul did).
The question follows after
[11] Then said I, Lord, how long?
And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
And says,
[12] And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Which men would come out of the land?
Paul recounts the same in a couple of places in Acts 22:21 & in again in Acts 28:28
The Lord saying
Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
As is shown in the context of his own quoting Isaiah 6:9 to the Jews as is shown in Acts 28:26 which seems to follow in the same accord, confirming
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Which would also be fulfilling the same here also
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
And affects nothing since it falls under both the people (his own) and the Gentiles
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
But it also follows that in Isaiah 6:12
[12] And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
This saying
[13] But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
And speaking of the tenth there just reminds me of the tens sake here
Gen 18:33 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Because the ten's sake in that context pertains to the preserving against the destuction as shown us of Sodom by fire itself, but likewise so we also read similarly in Romans 9:29 of the seed and Sodom in the context of themselves, quoting Isaiah again.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Saying here, "Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed" because there it mentions
Isaiah 6:13 But yet "in it" shall be "a tenth" and "it" shall return...whose substance is "in them", "when they" cast their leaves: and so "the holy seed" shall be "the substance" thereof.
So which promises are these that the remnant of Israel then (such as Paul) who was sent to the Gentiles missed out on in Christ?
Since Paul does say,
2 Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
To the best of my knowledge the promise would be the Holy Ghost
Israel received the covenant and the promise of his spirit.....Gentiles were strangers from the covenants
[Isa 59:21 KJV] 21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Peter said the Holy Ghost at Pentecost fulfilled Joel in Acts 2:16
[Joe 2:28 KJV] 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[Joe 2:29 KJV] 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Jesus told the diciples they would receive the Holy Ghost
[Jhn 14:16-17 KJV] 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jesus told the disciples they would receive the promise of the Spirit
[Act 1:4 KJV] 4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
The promised Holy Ghost was shed forth at Pentecost
[Act 2:33 KJV] 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as recorded scripture, the Gentiles did not receive the Spirit until Acts 10 so they were not promised it in Acts2:39
[Act 2:39 KJV] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
We were discussing whether or not the Gentiles in Acts 2:39 were those far off and I was saying they could not be those far off because they did not receive the promises only given to Israel
[Rom 9:4 KJV] 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
I hope this reflects an answer in regard to your thread....thanks
You had said,
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as recorded scripture, the Gentiles did not receive the Spirit until Acts 10 so they were not promised it in Acts 2:39
That is correct (at least in part I would think) because Jesus tells them where to begin here
And in Luke 24:47 it say, " And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" whereas in my post (#52) in Acts 10:45 is where I was showing the Gentiles receiving the same Holy Ghost the circumcision recieved in Acts 2:39
When Jesus said, repentance and remission of sins should be preached his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem, there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, who were devout men, "out of" every nation under heaven at the time then present.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then we see in Acts 10:45 the Gentiles receive the same Holy Ghost as acknowledged here
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Which would establish that he meant the Gentiles since the promise (as we both acknowledge is the Holy Ghost) was to both them and their children to those afar off seeing that, Paul (who is speaking to the Gentiles) tells them
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world
Ephes 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephes 2:12 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
And so therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners.
And so from what I understand in post 54 you were using far off in Acts 2:39 as "referring to those Israelites that were scattered into other countries" in respects to the gift of the Holy Ghost. And while it would not necessarily exclude any that were, out of every nation there were in the present at Jerusalem already. Those far off as far as strangers go (not so much as strangers in this world but strangers to the covenants) were the Gentiles (which were also included in receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost) and shown to be those which were afar off but made night by the blood of Christ (as Ephes 3:13 shows)
Concerning Jesus it says,
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins.
And one of his own people is saying this
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
So not theirs sins only.
Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also
Same with the gift of the Holy Ghost, was poured out on both, beginning at Jerusalem
Which is why I when I read Acts 2:39 saying,
Acts 2:39 For the promise (The Holy Ghost) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call
I understand it speaking of the Holy Ghost being given to the Gentiles (even as it shows the same was given them) where the Gentiles are mentioned as those also as having been afar off from Christ and brought near by his blood and given the same Spirit to drink.
It sort of brings it together for me, I can't think of anything else I can add to that, since most if it is a few repeats reworked a bit. The discussion has been good because it certainly helps strengthen our understanding.
Edit typos
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[Act 2:5 KJV] 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Take a look at the verse......they were out of every nation but they were not there just for Pentecost,,,,they were dwelling in Jerusalem....if they were dwelling there they were not scattered........you cant say they were far off
At last we can agree on something.....haha
We can agree that we are redeemed by the blood of Christ and have his imputed righteousness by believing the gospel given to Paul
as I said anytime I am open for discussions with you
Right, I am trying to leave some room here for what we might differ on because I am the one who does not see them as the ones being afar off anyway. I understand the promise (being the Holy Ghost here) being for them then present (who were also there out of every nation) and their children also (whoever, and wherever they might be) not being the same as all those also who were afar off (the latter) I believe to be the Gentiles too who are adressed as such (even as afar off ones) shone us in Ephes 2:17
As we both know here the context is the promise of the Holy Ghost
Acts 2:39 For the promise (the Holy Ghost) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ephes 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off,
and to them that were nigh.
Ephes 2:18 For through him we (( both)) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
And so we see in Acts 10 in as many as came with Peter
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. |
Same in Paul
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
I dont think you can say that "the many as came with Peter" were those who were scattered.....correct me if thats not what you are saying.........they were just of the circumcision maybe
you are so gracious
I could wish we could have all of our discussions with others respectful and willing to exchange views based on scripture
I was just sharing what is in the verse itself to "introduce" the verse into the discussion, let me highlight
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Hope that helps
You as well, I hate being lesso. I also think its easier when we keep our own words brief and just reason out of the words of scripture together without trying to force things.
I have been guilty of trying to fit quare pegs in round holes, while fighting with the framework to get it to work. Only when I'd eventually drop it and pick up the correct piece would it open up to me more things I wasn't yet seeing. I actually love it when that happens.
