Set free from religion?

[aspen]

So you hate organized religion, but you love Jesus?
Jesus is God; church is made by humans.......
Had enough with all the hypocrisy? Ready to divorce your church and go it alone?

Here's the problem.....Christ used humans to start His church.

One of the real draw backs of the Reformation has been a distrust of humanity's ability to continue what Christ entrusted human beings to maintain - specifically, His Church. It started with the Reformer's charge of corruption in the Catholic Church, which was accurate; unfortunately, they did not stop with simply identifying the corruption. With the exception of Luther (he was excommunicated), the Reformers rebelled and labelled the entire Catholic Church as corrupt, worldly, and sometimes went as far as identifying the Pope as the antichrist. Monarchies encouraged this religious rebellion because they wanted to break away from the Vatican, as well.

This basic distrust for all organized religion, spawned countless vain attempts to recreate the early church - of course, all failed because as soon as the new church movements became large, they fell into the same conundrum as the Catholic Church; they had to add structure, organization and standardization of doctrine/practice/worship. Consequently, all attempts at recreating the early church became an exercise in chasing rainbows.

Today we have witnessed the death of Modernism - mainline Protestantism is in it's death throws; atheism/fundamentalism are gasping for air; and Postmodernism is taking root. The interesting thing is, in the midst of all this change, the old Reformation-born distrust of organized religion is getting stronger! It is now part of the conservative Protestant narrative - 'real Christians' love Jesus, not some building! Religion is of man, not of God! I believe in the Bible (a product of the church), not church!

Admittedly, I find this dualistic thinking absurd. Religion is the framework and method that humans use to communicate and relate to God. A parallel claim might be, "I believe in ideas, not language!" Furthermore, the fact that God has included humans in His plan for our redemption from the very beginning, tells me that He wants us to be obedient and responsible for spreading His Word and caring for His Flock. The method Jesus decided to use according to Mathew 16 is His Church.

Believing that humans are totally depraved and God is the only force working through us for good is an extension of Gnostic dualism; magnified by Calvinism; and perpetuated by a misunderstanding of Paul's use of the word 'flesh'. Paul was not a Gnostic! He did not condemn our flesh (humanity); he condemned our flesh (worldliness)! Also, his use of the word 'work' refers to relying on our sinful tendency (old nature) to cut corners and justify the ends with our means because it will not get us closer to God. Instead, God wants our obedience (God + human submission) and our participation (practicing our sanctification by loving God and neighbor).

Church is not the problem. Our unwillingness to participate in loving God and our neighbor in the context of Church is the problem. If God trusts humans to spread His word; we can trust humans to lead us in worship; listen to our worries, fears, sins; and to walk with us in our sanctification and sometimes show us the way by their example.


So there is my opinion - please share yours! I want to understand!

 

[Prentis]

Here's the thread...

Here`s my two cents.... I`m going to try and touch on the points you speak of.

Firstly, one thing it seems to me you're saying is that people have become cynical and leave the church out of fear. That might be true of some (maybe most). This is not the case for me personally. I love the people in there, knowing many that are good friends and good brothers.

You`re right: Christ used humans to start his Church! Only now we`ve organized something were humans are the ones using systems to start a church. It is not Christ starting the church anymore but men. Christ starts the church through men, yes, but it still has to be Christ starting the church. HE is the builder.

Religion is the method that man wants to use to communicate to God. Only here is what it does; it allows man to communicate with God all the while keeping the control in the hands of man. God wants to communicate with us not by religion, but by his Spirit. The Spirit blows where it wishes, no one can control it or direct it.

I must also clarify I am in no way protestant or calvinistic or lutheran or reformed etc etc. The reform of something that is organized by men just means some men dont like how it's organized and want to organize it differently. Therefore I don't agree with the reform.

God builds his church how he wishes to and uses who he wants. He makes the decisions... The moment we start replacing him, he`s not in charge anymore. And if he's not in charge, then someone else is... And I don't believe he's pleased at all with that.

Most of all, to me it is about coming out of a system to come into love. A system has no love and doesn't have the Spirit. A system works according to an agenda, but in the Spirit there is freedom. Instead of being directed by any thing we can see and touch and read, we need to be led directly and completely of God. Let God be our teacher, let God be our master! A system brings people together in a natural way, we are together because we all like bowling... We are together because we all play bingo... We are together because we all have the same beliefs... It`s all at the level of the soul. But we need to be brought together in the Spirit. It has to come from the Lord.

It has to be Christ through us, his authority. Doing our possible to do what is his will in our strength is good, but we are called higher, to holiness, where we are dead and Christ lives through us!

Tell me if it makes sense and please, object! Be straightforward and direct! I am not one to be offended... And I hope I haven't offended you!

Blessings in the Lord

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Aspen, nice thread!

My opinion. Mmmm. Religion tanks. I think so much damage has been done to the name of Jesus under the guise of 'religion'. The only higher damage is Christians themselves. Sad.
I think the fighting and dissension about denominations is both overdone and necessary. It's sad to see the vehement and almost hatred that springs forth between different churches, do we not all have Christ in common? And yet, if we could only remember the love we should have for one another, I think there could be a place for some of the differences we have. As we can see here on this thread, it certainly makes us all think, study and pray harder about some of our thoughts and doctrines. I know, for my part, that I stop thinking of something just because it's what I've always been taught...I believe it because I wade through scripture and find what it tells me.
Of course the different denominations we are talking about are still "Christian". When talking religion in general it tends to cover any and all of the worlds beliefs. I think it would probably take a whole new thread to discuss the damage all these false gods are causing the population...leading them away from the one true God. So many people out there placing their trust in something that won't save them. Sad. Yup, I'll repeat my thought...religion tanks.

 

[aspen]

Here's the thread...

Here`s my two cents.... I`m going to try and touch on the points you speak of.

Firstly, one thing it seems to me you're saying is that people have become cynical and leave the church out of fear. That might be true of some (maybe most). This is not the case for me personally. I love the people in there, knowing many that are good friends and good brothers.

You`re right: Christ used humans to start his Church! Only now we`ve organized something were humans are the ones using systems to start a church. It is not Christ starting the church anymore but men. Christ starts the church through men, yes, but it still has to be Christ starting the church. HE is the builder.

Religion is the method that man wants to use to communicate to God. Only here is what it does; it allows man to communicate with God all the while keeping the control in the hands of man. God wants to communicate with us not by religion, but by his Spirit. The Spirit blows where it wishes, no one can control it or direct it.

I must also clarify I am in no way protestant or calvinistic or lutheran or reformed etc etc. The reform of something that is organized by men just means some men dont like how it's organized and want to organize it differently. Therefore I don't agree with the reform.

God builds his church how he wishes to and uses who he wants. He makes the decisions... The moment we start replacing him, he`s not in charge anymore. And if he's not in charge, then someone else is... And I don't believe he's pleased at all with that.

Most of all, to me it is about coming out of a system to come into love. A system has no love and doesn't have the Spirit. A system works according to an agenda, but in the Spirit there is freedom. Instead of being directed by any thing we can see and touch and read, we need to be led directly and completely of God. Let God be our teacher, let God be our master! A system brings people together in a natural way, we are together because we all like bowling... We are together because we all play bingo... We are together because we all have the same beliefs... It`s all at the level of the soul. But we need to be brought together in the Spirit. It has to come from the Lord.

It has to be Christ through us, his authority. Doing our possible to do what is his will in our strength is good, but we are called higher, to holiness, where we are dead and Christ lives through us!

Tell me if it makes sense and please, object! Be straightforward and direct! I am not one to be offended... And I hope I haven't offended you!

Blessings in the Lord

Thanks for the reply! I am not offended. First, I understand what your saying and why you believe what you believe - your post is clear.

Now, there are a few ideas I would like to discuss further:

1. I do believe that people have become cynical about church, but I am talking about people who are church-going Christians - those who are not cynical, but still talk about how the church they attend is almost not a real part of their Christianity - because they are real Christians who have a real relationship with Christ, not some pewsitter. You know what I mean? It is almost uncool to say that church is important because you might be claiming to follow men rather than God.

2."It is not Christ starting the church anymore but men." I think this is a pretty bold statement.....I am not a fan of denominations - I am Catholic, after all; but I still think that God is using men regardless of whether they veer off the road.... If were up to God, I think people would have remained in the offspring of the early church and it would have probably looked a lot different than all the Catholic Churches out there. But, Christ is working within our limitations. Have you ever worked with cognitively / emotionally impaired people? You can have the coolest plan for them - the most creative treatment plan ever, but if you are not flexible and allow them to adapt the plan into their own language, you are going to have a tantrum on your hands, right before they tune you out for good. God is working with a creation with serious limitations and the power of freewill. The great thing is, He knows this fact better than we do and He chooses to love us. I think He is profoundly more flexible, patient, and merciful than we can image. Yet, He calls us to come together as a church, which requires the limited, sinful (less than perfect) participation of man.

3. "Religion is the method that man wants to use to communicate to God." I disagree. Religion is the language we use to communicate with God. Religion is just a set of symbols - just like language. We cannot share our ideas with God without the language of religion. It is religion that teaches us and conforms us to God's Will for us; along with helping us discern the voice of God and determine orthodoxy from heresy.

4. "it allows man to communicate with God all the while keeping the control in the hands of man. God wants to communicate with us not by religion, but by his Spirit. The Spirit blows where it wishes, no one can control it or direct it." No offense, but I think this is the myth that drives people to divide 'religion' from 'spirituality'. It is a false dichotomy - religion is the language of spirituality. If you are only referring to organized religion / church as being confining......I still disagree for the same reason I disagree with a teenager who wants to quit school because they want to learn on their own. The fact is, we need the discipline and structure of the church to compel us to grow in our spiritual walk with Christ. I am involved in mystical prayer - if I didn't have a spiritual director, who was grounded in God's Word and Church doctrine, I could easily slide off into Shirley McClainism / transcendentalism / heresy. The early church and the monks and hermits knew this danger to be real. Finally, I think God wants to communicate with us, period. If some people need to rely more on the mechanics of the Mass to connect with God, so be it. Their sanctification requires more concrete symbols and participation than others.

One more point......the Spirit is like the wind, not a wispy breeze that can be blocked by human will. God's Will be done, regardless of how much we try to resist or refuse to fully engage in religious language (pew-sitting).

5. "I must also clarify I am in no way protestant or calvinistic or lutheran or reformed etc etc. The reform of something that is organized by men just means some men dont like how it's organized and want to organize it differently. Therefore I don't agree with the reform." I hear what you are saying about not agreeing with the Reformation or the doctrines of the Reformers, but I think you maybe failing to acknowledge their contributions to your faith. The fact is, if you are not really Protestant you are still Catholic. I suspect that you follow the idea that the Bible is the final authority? That faith without works saves? That ultimately, God's saving grace requires nothing from you, and everything from God? Those are the tenets of Protestantism.

6. "God builds his church how he wishes to and uses who he wants. He makes the decisions... The moment we start replacing him, he`s not in charge anymore. And if he's not in charge, then someone else is... And I don't believe he's pleased at all with that." Will you explain this statement some more for me? I am not sure what you mean about God building a church without the hands of men? See what I mean? If men are involved, there will always be a question about humans overstepping their bounds. I think God chalks it up as a job hazard. He certainly is not threatened by anything that we do.

7. "Most of all, to me it is about coming out of a system to come into love. A system has no love and doesn't have the Spirit. A system works according to an agenda, but in the Spirit there is freedom. Instead of being directed by any thing we can see and touch and read, we need to be led directly and completely of God. Let God be our teacher, let God be our master! A system brings people together in a natural way, we are together because we all like bowling... We are together because we all play bingo... We are together because we all have the same beliefs... It`s all at the level of the soul. But we need to be brought together in the Spirit. It has to come from the Lord." I believe this is your genuine experience, but it is not mine. I believe Christianity is totally diverse - it was from the beginning and is today. People are led to church by God. Also, I believe God can speak clearly within structure and conformity. It certainly has helped me become more disciplined and as a paradoxical result, more free. Furthermore, I believe fully embracing my religious education and training by making my own personal expression of love for God is apart of my sanctification.

Once again, I appreciate you sharing your experience with me and allowing me to respond. Your post has given me greater insight into this issue. The bottomline is to go where you find Christ. I agree with you that love is the point, not empty ritual. For me, the ritual is a real expression of love for God and apart of my sanctification.

blessings

 

[Prentis]

Ouhh... This is getting big... Love it! :lol:

Thanks for the reply! I am not offended. First, I understand what your saying and why you believe what you believe - your post is clear.

Now, there are a few ideas I would like to discuss further:

1. I do believe that people have become cynical about church, but I am talking about people who are church-going Christians - those who are not cynical, but still talk about how the church they attend is almost not a real part of their Christianity - because they are real Christians who have a real relationship with Christ, not some pewsitter. You know what I mean? It is almost uncool to say that church is important because you might be claiming to follow men rather than God.

I don't think saying that church is important is uncool. To the opposite. I'm NOT into comitting less and trying less because it's not working (ie "the church they attend is almost not a real part of their christianity"). But if it isn't working, if the body is not edified there, I'm into asking questions like "is it really the Church of Jesus Christ?" The thing is, it might work for one person, and that's good for them, but does it work for the building up of the whole body? If the answer is no, I think then that is simply means we can go deeper. By the way, I also want to clarify that I am in no way saying that there are not real christians in whatever denomination you can come up with. I am not against the people... But I don't see it as the way to go deep.

2."It is not Christ starting the church anymore but men." I think this is a pretty bold statement.....I am not a fan of denominations - I am Catholic, after all; but I still think that God is using men regardless of whether they veer off the road.... If were up to God, I think people would have remained in the offspring of the early church and it would have probably looked a lot different than all the Catholic Churches out there. But, Christ is working within our limitations. Have you ever worked with cognitively / emotionally impaired people? You can have the coolest plan for them - the most creative treatment plan ever, but if you are not flexible and allow them to adapt the plan into their own language, you are going to have a tantrum on your hands, right before they tune you out for good. God is working with a creation with serious limitations and the power of freewill. The great thing is, He knows this fact better than we do and He chooses to love us. I think He is profoundly more flexible, patient, and merciful than we can image. Yet, He calls us to come together as a church, which requires the limited, sinful (less than perfect) participation of man.

I absolutely agree that he still uses whatever men do. I do think God is patient and faithfull... As far as we will go, he will go with us. Kind of like it says "draw close to the Lord and he will draw close to you". Figuratively (it is a matter of the heart, after all), I think if we take one step towards him, he takes one towards us, if we take 3 so does he, and so forth. I'm not saying that NOTHING happens in denominations, far from it. And God turns everything for good for those who love him. If one really loves him, I definitely believe God will turn things for his eternal good whatever denomination he is in (love requiring faithfulness). Only what I'm saying is not that the grace or love of God is exclusively for those who take, say, at least 10 steps. What I'm trying to say, show, and most of all learn, is how do we take even more and even greater steps... And I think it's necessary we let the Spirit organize us to go really deep.


3. "Religion is the method that man wants to use to communicate to God." I disagree. Religion is the language we use to communicate with God. Religion is just a set of symbols - just like language. We cannot share our ideas with God without the language of religion. It is religion that teaches us and conforms us to God's Will for us; along with helping us discern the voice of God and determine orthodoxy from heresy.

I suspect we are not meaning religion in quite the same way, at least to a degree, but I'm not sure. Still, I think we can agree that it is common to see one man of religion who belives something ABSOLUTELY opposite to another man of religion. In which case religion failed to bring these two men together.

I think if we don't seek the Spirits guidance, we're lost. After all, the Pharisees for example were very religious, and yet they were diametrically opposed to the message of Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I am not comparing anyone to them, I am no man's judge. But I am pointing to is how 'the letter kills and the spirit gives life'. How is that? Well if you follow the letter, you are taking matters into your own hands, but I think that the letter is there to teach us how to follow the spirit, or at least point us in the right direction.

Example: Who sent out Paul and Barnabas? God himself! Who's appointing pastors, clergy, etc?

4. "it allows man to communicate with God all the while keeping the control in the hands of man. God wants to communicate with us not by religion, but by his Spirit. The Spirit blows where it wishes, no one can control it or direct it." No offense, but I think this is the myth that drives people to divide 'religion' from 'spirituality'. It is a false dichotomy - religion is the language of spirituality. If you are only referring to organized religion / church as being confining......I still disagree for the same reason I disagree with a teenager who wants to quit school because they want to learn on their own. The fact is, we need the discipline and structure of the church to compel us to grow in our spiritual walk with Christ. I am involved in mystical prayer - if I didn't have a spiritual director, who was grounded in God's Word and Church doctrine, I could easily slide off into Shirley McClainism / transcendentalism / heresy. The early church and the monks and hermits knew this danger to be real. Finally, I think God wants to communicate with us, period. If some people need to rely more on the mechanics of the Mass to connect with God, so be it. Their sanctification requires more concrete symbols and participation than others.

Yes, we definitely need structure, like anyone learning something. Only our goal is to walk in the Spirit, in love and be like Christ. We need discipline and structure, but ultimately we have ONE teacher God. Here's where I have to make myself very clear: I am NOT saying Christianity is everyone on their own and I am NOT saying we shouldn't listen to anyone but God. But we need people who are led of God so that when they speak, it is the authority of God that they speak, and his words. We need prophets to teach us. A man appointed and anointed of God can teach men to be godly because he carries God's authority. A man appointed by men can only teach you to be what a man is according to them. I believe in structure, but according to the Spirit, not an organization. And I think you can rebel against one, the other, or both!

As to those who need 'mechanics' to connect with God, I absolutely agree! And I think that is how God often uses the system, for those in need! I do not condemn them in any sense. The institution serves that purpose and that's fine. But I do think it is important to call people deeper. Some might not be able or ready to go deeper, and they never might be and that's fine! But the call still has to be made so that those who DO want a deeper walk and are willing to go down that road can take it and run!

One more point......the Spirit is like the wind, not a wispy breeze that can be blocked by human will. God's Will be done, regardless of how much we try to resist or refuse to fully engage in religious language (pew-sitting).

Again, I absolutely agree. We can't stop his will. But I think it is better for our own sake that we get in sync with it. God doesn't need us, if he has to he'll make the stones cry out. I don't say it because He needs us, he definitely doesn't need me, but because we need HIM. If we get in sync with his plan instead of being against it, the better! I think in a sense that's what Christ came to do! Christ didn't need to come if the rocks could of been raised to cry out... But Christ wanted to come to save us, out of love for those who love him!

5. "I must also clarify I am in no way protestant or calvinistic or lutheran or reformed etc etc. The reform of something that is organized by men just means some men dont like how it's organized and want to organize it differently. Therefore I don't agree with the reform." I hear what you are saying about not agreeing with the Reformation or the doctrines of the Reformers, but I think you maybe failing to acknowledge their contributions to your faith. The fact is, if you are not really Protestant you are still Catholic. I suspect that you follow the idea that the Bible is the final authority? That faith without works saves? That ultimately, God's saving grace requires nothing from you, and everything from God? Those are the tenets of Protestantism.

Actually, you might be surprised... ;)
Faith without works is dead, and I think if you don't serve the master and endure to the end, there is no reward for that. There is no reward for the sluggard. That gives me no leverage to judge a person, "only God can judge a person's whole life" (quote from I can't remember who) and it is according to what we are given, "to who much is given much is required" (this one I remember who it's from ;) ).
I think God makes saving grace available. I must answer in faith and obedience. If I neglect the grace of God and such a great salvation, I'm in big trouble. It's actually kind of scary! If I go wrong, I could be Judas... I hope that God in his mercy will keep me from falling in a way that I could never rise. But I don't know that until after!
So no, I don't follow the tenets of Protestantism, though these are the ones I was originally taught. I'm definitely not catholic either, where I was raised up until 7 (Switzerland) I never knew of it, and here in Canada I saw it, but my parents are protestant, so I was not influenced by it.

6. "God builds his church how he wishes to and uses who he wants. He makes the decisions... The moment we start replacing him, he`s not in charge anymore. And if he's not in charge, then someone else is... And I don't believe he's pleased at all with that." Will you explain this statement some more for me? I am not sure what you mean about God building a church without the hands of men? See what I mean? If men are involved, there will always be a question about humans overstepping their bounds. I think God chalks it up as a job hazard. He certainly is not threatened by anything that we do.

I agree, but if we REALLY get in the way and aren't willing to get out of the way, I think he says "fine, there's 6 more billion out there, I'll go find a people who are willing to follow me". Don't get me wrong, he is very patient and quick to forgive, but as it says "the eyes of the Lord look to a fro on the earth to show himself strong on behalf of those who's heart is perfect towards him". In other words God is looking for those who have a broken and a contrite heart towards him. As it says, he's not a respecter of persons; he'll take whoever! I think he does use men, yes, but does NOT force ANY man. Otherwise there woulnd't be any free will for that person. What I'm saying is this (to TRY and clarify my statement :) ) God is looking for a people who will surrender and completely let him use them whatever way he wants and be led wherever he likes. So he uses men, but only if they let him. If they don't let him, he uses what THEY decide to do for good anyways, because he is love. BUT it's better to be the person that let's him... If grace abounds in sin (God takes our wrongs and uses them for good), should we sin? No! Let's surrender and be in tune with our Master and Maker! That's what I'm trying to say.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to be of those that have made and I'm not claiming I've attained it. I hope to do so. This goes for everything I've said; I could end up far behind everyone and be the biggest failure. But it's like this (a kind of parable I guess), imagine there's this great job that is offered, and they will take anyone that is qualified and fit and proves themselves, whether it be 10 or 100 or 1000 people, if you're good for the job, they will take you. The more they can produce the better! It's the best job anyones heard of; great salary, advantages, and it's just right. Now, if you found out about it, wouldn't you apply AND tell all your friends, whether you got it or not? That is how I see my situation. I might not get the job, I might be the utter failure, but let me atleast tell my friends about it, maybe they can get it! And if they already have a good job, I'll tell them anyways, maybe it'll get them an even better one ;)

7. "Most of all, to me it is about coming out of a system to come into love. A system has no love and doesn't have the Spirit. A system works according to an agenda, but in the Spirit there is freedom. Instead of being directed by any thing we can see and touch and read, we need to be led directly and completely of God. Let God be our teacher, let God be our master! A system brings people together in a natural way, we are together because we all like bowling... We are together because we all play bingo... We are together because we all have the same beliefs... It`s all at the level of the soul. But we need to be brought together in the Spirit. It has to come from the Lord." I believe this is your genuine experience, but it is not mine. I believe Christianity is totally diverse - it was from the beginning and is today. People are led to church by God. Also, I believe God can speak clearly within structure and conformity. It certainly has helped me become more disciplined and as a paradoxical result, more free. Furthermore, I believe fully embracing my religious education and training by making my own personal expression of love for God is apart of my sanctification.

Okay :)
I definitely believe God can speak within structure and conformity. I believe he doesn't respond according to where we are physically but to our hearts. If they are right towards him, he responds. When we look to him in faith, he responds! Our God is amazing and so full of love... He doesn't stumble on what men do, on what physical eyes can see!

Once again, I appreciate you sharing your experience with me and allowing me to respond. Your post has given me greater insight into this issue. The bottomline is to go where you find Christ. I agree with you that love is the point, not empty ritual. For me, the ritual is a real expression of love for God and apart of my sanctification.

I appreciate you're sharing too, and have been blessed by this conversation.. God bless your heart brother! "Love is the point"! May you find Christ more and more deeply and may he transform you into his image! With much love in our Lord :)

blessings

 

[aspen]

Ouhh... This is getting big... Love it! :lol:

You know, I really love your response! Admittedly, I was surprised that you have significant variation in your beliefs in comparison to Protestantism.
Again I was surprised when you explained the value of ritual and structure.
I was excited to see how much we actually agree and how your well thought out post helped me consider new ideas.

Here is one thing I need to clarify - I totally agree that the Spirit of God must be present and He often stretches our faith beyond structure and ritual.
One problem I am having is understanding how you are discerning whether a leader/minister/pastor is lead by the Spirit or ordained by the Spirit rather than man.
Also, I am still unclear about what a church or gathering or group is assembled by the Spirit.

In any case, I have really enjoyed our conversation!

blessings

 

[Prentis]

That is the hardest thing to answer, and yet the best... It's so hard because it's so important.
I ask myself this... How did so many religious people (Pharisees, Saduccees, etc) hate the very anointed of God, and yet a bunch of fisherman only needed to hear "follow me" to leave EVERYTHING, wife, etc, to follow him? When you think of it on a human level, it makes no sense whatsoever... Zero! If it wasn't by natural means (flesh and blood) that Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, then how was it?

First I admit to knowing little in this and having very little experience, but I will take the little I have and try my best, here's my shot at it...

It's all about the anointing. It's about the Spirit of God that resides in that person. How do you discern? Well the gifts of the Spirit can make it obvious. If you see a godly righteous man raise the dead and heal the sick, you know he's anointed. But the part that gets hard is how do you discern the teacher? The voice of the shepherd? I think God often doesn't give us the signs and wonders, because it attracts those seeking a sign, but we need to be after the Lord's heart... I think it's subtle, it's in the Spirit! It's revealed to us. God comes and makes the blind to see. And the Pharisees who say they see are made blind!

That's another thing. I find religion so dangerous because for so many they take it to the head instead of the heart. There are some that don't which is why we can judge no man. But many do, they follow the letter of the law and use their head instead of their heart. And because they do this, their hearts are hardened, and when the Lord of Lords comes and tugs on the heart that it be turned to him, they find some fault with their 'perfect' mind and for that they condemn him! Yet they have missed the whole point, the spirit, love, and to have a contrite heart towards the Lord.

Here's my favorite verse to explain this amazing and difficult to explain reality... I remember reading it one time and it hit me like a ton of bricks! I had read it before but I never understood it like this!
[sup]1 John 2:27[/sup]But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I love this verse! It amazes me!!! Here's the thing, we need no man to teach us, we need Christ. But Christ in others will teach us. The mature one among us needs to teach us that we may become mature like him. The anointing is received by the body for the body, and by this we are taught. We have one master and one teacher!

As to how a church gathering is assembled in the Spirit... Another tough one (The best ones!)

Well, I think God does things different every time, exactly why we can't rely on anything but Him to make us part of it. But those who are seeking him in prayer and who he choses, he will bring to be assembled.

One example I have heard from an overseer is how he, living here (near Montreal), was told of God that a community of brothers would be formed. And soon after, a friend he knew who lived 30 hours of drive away calls and says "Brother, I had a dream from the Lord that we were moving to where you are to be the church"! The Lord ordains, the Lord calls, the Lord assembles... THEN we know we are assembled because of Christ and nothing else! Then we can grow in leaps and bounds! :)

So how do you discern? It's the most difficult thing to explain (for me), partly because I honestly think it's beyond words in a way, and partly because I have so little experience in this and am not especially gifted in it... It's just so subtle, at first, I think you almost don't know why you're doing it, there's doubt...It's by the Spirit... What else can I say!

Blessings (Once again, enjoying this very much!)

 

[martinlawrencescott]

James 1:27
Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

I like to stick to this definition of religion. I think religion is the means by which we act out our system of beliefs. I think God has created means in order for us to function in one accord in the Body of Christ. For there to be actual organization and a unity of people all progressing toward a goal both counter-cultural and good (non violent, good works, love) is powerful. Religion without love is scary and becomes a system of tyranny by rule of evil men. I believe that is still the way God has chosen it to be, and he has given us ways to prove in ourselves and ways to identify in others in order to understand who is acting by the spirit and love of Christ and who is not.

In my own experience, I have found it more dangerous to cut myself off from the organized church body than to wing it. I have been learning that the more I am obedient to the order and structure that I am committed to at the congregation I participate in, the sooner and easier the work I am pursuing is accomplished in ministry. I have been in a congregation where the flow of ministry (both evangelism and discipleship) was cut off by inner turmoil in the church. As long as I focus on Christ's love and not as much on people, then I can trust God to continue to lead me to the right people and influences in my life to grow the work in me, to build up other believers in faith, and to spread the word to the world.

 

[Prentis]

Ah, this kind of religion I love...

Blessings brother!

 

[goodshepard55]

Ahhh...religion...one of the most used words in a Christians life...My religion is Baptist..or Catholic...or my religion is Methodist...myself ...I profess no religion...I am a follower of Christ as we all should be..right....Church on the other hand is mostly about religion....wear this or you can't wear that...you can't be seen in that place...no christian would be seen talking to those people....to me that is religion....that is the doctrine of churches...not the truth of Christ....I may attend a Baptist church or a Catholic church...but when they stray from the word of God to man made rules..I stop listening and listen to God...When a preacher/pastor/priest is filled with the Holy Spirit, the words that come out of his mouth is almost always what we need to hear...it is almost like sitting down face to face with them and they tell you they believe that God wants you to know____________.......I have been in church and heard the word from the Pastor and someone else heard something entirely different...God speaks to us through the Pastor/Preacher/Priest....But if they do not go by God's word it is empty air..if they are Spirit filled the words are like warm sunshine, angel breath, a smile on a dark day..or straight in the heart loving words just for us...I do understand we all have opinions on God's word...but when they come to you from the lips of a Spirit filled person even if it is a little boy next door...they warm your spirit like hot chocolate.... in my opinion anyway...love you all and Aspen...good work on that op...

 

[aspen]

Boy, I am really enjoying everyone's comments - powerful words! Encouraging! Shep, I love your descriptions - you nailed it. Martin....love your definition of religion - living!

 

[aspen]

Hey Aspen, nice thread!

My opinion. Mmmm. Religion tanks. I think so much damage has been done to the name of Jesus under the guise of 'religion'. The only higher damage is Christians themselves. Sad.
I think the fighting and dissension about denominations is both overdone and necessary. It's sad to see the vehement and almost hatred that springs forth between different churches, do we not all have Christ in common? And yet, if we could only remember the love we should have for one another, I think there could be a place for some of the differences we have. As we can see here on this thread, it certainly makes us all think, study and pray harder about some of our thoughts and doctrines. I know, for my part, that I stop thinking of something just because it's what I've always been taught...I believe it because I wade through scripture and find what it tells me.
Of course the different denominations we are talking about are still "Christian". When talking religion in general it tends to cover any and all of the worlds beliefs. I think it would probably take a whole new thread to discuss the damage all these false gods are causing the population...leading them away from the one true God. So many people out there placing their trust in something that won't save them. Sad. Yup, I'll repeat my thought...religion tanks.

Religion tanks - haha

I've been talking with you all day and you are still forcing me to examine my ideas - how fun!

Since I have joined the Catholic Church, I have realized how many differing opinions and beliefs member have - it has really become a church where people are allowed to explore their faith - which is due to Vatican II and a strong dose of Protestant influence. Our similarities include the saving grace of God through the sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence in the Eucharist and a correct understanding of the nature of God as a Trinity. What I like is that all these people choose to stay instead of leaving a starting a new denomination so their ideas also remain. Who knew the Catholic Church would become a place that tolerated free thought? Not me.

 

[Rach1370]

Religion tanks - haha

I've been talking with you all day and you are still forcing me to examine my ideas - how fun!

Since I have joined the Catholic Church, I have realized how many differing opinions and beliefs member have - it has really become a church where people are allowed to explore their faith - which is due to Vatican II and a strong dose of Protestant influence. Our similarities include the saving grace of God through the sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence in the Eucharist and a correct understanding of the nature of God as a Trinity. What I like is that all these people choose to stay instead of leaving a starting a new denomination so their ideas also remain. Who knew the Catholic Church would become a place that tolerated free thought? Not me.

You know, I always wonder if differing denominations within Christianity might have been God's plan. Just think of the tower of Babel. God gave all those people differing languages and sent them on their way, giving us today wonderful diversity within the world. Granted we tend to disagree on some things, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a wonderful purpose behind those differences. As we are all made individual, perhaps God in His infinite wisdom knew we would all need different ways to come to and worship Him? I love seeing things in the world and wondering just how much is God's grand plan!

 

[mjrhealth]

I guess it all boils down to the fact that Christ is coming back for His church, not yours..


In His Love

 

[Foreigner]

You know, I always wonder if differing denominations within Christianity might have been God's plan. Just think of the tower of Babel. God gave all those people differing languages and sent them on their way, giving us today wonderful diversity within the world.

-- Interesting point Rach. I can see where you are coming from.

Scripture says that the people of Babel wanted to build a tower "to make a name for themselves" and not be scattered.

God said basically if they all have the same language then "nothing will be imposible for them."

Looking at it from the human side of it, it sound like a good thing, but God's great insight saw what harm could come from that.

Perhaps it is the same for a unified denomination. In an arragement like this, it would be easy for the "truth" to become whatever the group decides.

 

[mjrhealth]

-- Interesting point Rach. I can see where you are coming from.

Scripture says that the people of Babel wanted to build a tower "to make a name for themselves" and not be scattered.

God said basically if they all have the same language then "nothing will be imposible for them."

Looking at it from the human side of it, it sound like a good thing, but God's great insight saw what harm could come from that.

Perhaps it is the same for a unified denomination. In an arragement like this, it would be easy for the "truth" to become whatever the group decides.

I dont believe God is that foolish. After all His efforts, we now have multiple towers of bablle. all building there tower to heaven, all speaking adifferent language al preaching a different Jesus. Jesus has one church,not many

In His Love

 

[IanLC]

Hello, Aspen I agree with the basic core and thoughts behind your post.

1. Jesus placed the church in the hands of people his disciples. They did not start the church it was started when Jesus christ began to teach His discples His teachings. His teachings were confirmed by his death and resurrection. the church was empowered to do the work by the Holy Spirit on pentecost. Yes, God YHWH placed the church in man's hands, He had no other choice! The early church was the perfect example and form of the church we have seen. The people were united under the apsotles doctrine and the teachings of Jesus Christ. They were generous and loving and truly exemplified the gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit.

2. No modern church today is the total true church! We are all apart of the universal and spiritual body of Christ. Catholicism nor Protestantism is the only church and neither are they the most perfect form of the church. Both have things that need to be corrected and fixed. But instead of focusing on our differences can we come together for the main cause of up lifitng Jesus so he can draw all men unto himself? Can we come together and worship God in church buildings, services, public and in our lives in spirit and in truth? Can we love each other unconditionaly? Can we realize the way others praise and worship God is between them and God and that there is no uniform way to worship and praise him except in spirit and truth? Can we get pass the messenger of the word and recieve the message God is trying to send us through them? As long as the messenger is living a holy life before God and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Despite if they are male or female, educated or not as educated, race, creed, etc? Can we come together and evangelize and perform mission tasks to spread Jesus Christ to the world? Not focusing on this or that denomination? Jesus is tired of our foolish bickering all He wants us to do is 1. Live a holy life before Him and men, 2. Believe in Him alone for salvation, 3. Preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world, 4. Be unified in the faith, 5. Receive and live a life under the auspicies of the Holy Spirit! Not many mandates at all! Those 5 mandates cross all denominational boundaries! Catholic or Holiness or Pentecostal or Presbyterian or Baptist or Methodist or Charismatic or Orthodox or Epsicopal!!

 

[aspen]

Hello, Aspen I agree with the basic core and thoughts behind your post.

1. Jesus placed the church in the hands of people his disciples. They did not start the church it was started when Jesus christ began to teach His discples His teachings. His teachings were confirmed by his death and resurrection. the church was empowered to do the work by the Holy Spirit on pentecost. Yes, God YHWH placed the church in man's hands, He had no other choice! The early church was the perfect example and form of the church we have seen. The people were united under the apsotles doctrine and the teachings of Jesus Christ. They were generous and loving and truly exemplified the gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit.

2. No modern church today is the total true church! We are all apart of the universal and spiritual body of Christ. Catholicism nor Protestantism is the only church and neither are they the most perfect form of the church. Both have things that need to be corrected and fixed. But instead of focusing on our differences can we come together for the main cause of up lifitng Jesus so he can draw all men unto himself? Can we come together and worship God in church buildings, services, public and in our lives in spirit and in truth? Can we love each other unconditionaly? Can we realize the way others praise and worship God is between them and God and that there is no uniform way to worship and praise him except in spirit and truth? Can we get pass the messenger of the word and recieve the message God is trying to send us through them? As long as the messenger is living a holy life before God and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Despite if they are male or female, educated or not as educated, race, creed, etc? Can we come together and evangelize and perform mission tasks to spread Jesus Christ to the world? Not focusing on this or that denomination? Jesus is tired of our foolish bickering all He wants us to do is 1. Live a holy life before Him and men, 2. Believe in Him alone for salvation, 3. Preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the whole world, 4. Be unified in the faith, 5. Receive and live a life under the auspicies of the Holy Spirit! Not many mandates at all! Those 5 mandates cross all denominational boundaries! Catholic or Holiness or Pentecostal or Presbyterian or Baptist or Methodist or Charismatic or Orthodox or Epsicopal!!

Great post - thanks

You know, I always wonder if differing denominations within Christianity might have been God's plan. Just think of the tower of Babel. God gave all those people differing languages and sent them on their way, giving us today wonderful diversity within the world. Granted we tend to disagree on some things, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a wonderful purpose behind those differences. As we are all made individual, perhaps God in His infinite wisdom knew we would all need different ways to come to and worship Him? I love seeing things in the world and wondering just how much is God's grand plan!

It is an interesting idea.......I can goes as far as believing there was a good reason for the Reformation.

 

[Rach1370]

It is an interesting idea.......I can goes as far as believing there was a good reason for the Reformation.

What about everything that has come after the reformation? Granted the Protestant movement has some crazies and some outright wolves, but I know that the Catholic Church has had their share of those too! Here's the thing...even if we do not agree with how many people think and worship, we cannot deny that so many people love Jesus. I think when it comes down to it, only Jesus can decide if His blood covers what we would call 'heresies'. We must remain true to how we perceive the scriptures tell us we must live...but of course you know that; despite what many Protestants say, as a Catholic you know that they can indeed be heartfelt Christians. The same applies to the many Protestant denominations.
I think one of the main reasons for fighting and dissension between the denominations is that we can't accept differing opinions on secondary issues. Instead of gathering around the primary salvation ones, we divide because of the secondary ones. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[aspen]

What about everything that has come after the reformation? Granted the Protestant movement has some crazies and some outright wolves, but I know that the Catholic Church has had their share of those too! Here's the thing...even if we do not agree with how many people think and worship, we cannot deny that so many people love Jesus. I think when it comes down to it, only Jesus can decide if His blood covers what we would call 'heresies'. We must remain true to how we perceive the scriptures tell us we must live...but of course you know that; despite what many Protestants say, as a Catholic you know that they can indeed be heartfelt Christians. The same applies to the many Protestant denominations.
I think one of the main reasons for fighting and dissension between the denominations is that we can't accept differing opinions on secondary issues. Instead of gathering around the primary salvation ones, we divide because of the secondary ones. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Well, I think you have provided some good insight in your post. When I discovered that all the things that I was taught as a Protestant to fear about Catholic doctrine was a distortion or secondary even to catholics, I was happily surprised. Although, I recognize the true faith of many Protestants - everyone who confesses His name and true nature; I also recognize the Reformation did come out of rebellion. Born out of this rebellion came radical individualism, denominationalism, relativism, and private interpretation of the scriptures. It also stripped the Protestant church of symbols and a spirit of the sacred; not to mention, it did not solve the problems the Reformers pointed out in Catholicism; the Bible replaced Mary and statues for many Protestants; there is still a reliance on Tradition as an authority in many Protestant traditions; and as the churches grew, they took on all the same trapping of power and bureaucracy as Catholicism. What I guess I am saying is, Protestant churches simply became the little brother of Catholicism - we still belong to the same family,with all the same quirks. One of the biggest fears of conservatives on the Protestant side is not 'are we becoming worldly' it is actually, 'are we still too Catholic'. Conservative Catholics worry that Catholicism is becoming too Protestant - so they hug their statues even tighter. One of the greatest ironies in Catholicism is the Traditional Catholic Church, which Mel Gibson belongs to and is a schism. They reject all Popes after Pius X (anti-modernist) and believe Vatican II was the Devil's attempt to make Catholicism, Protestant. Well, what is the difference between the Traditionalist and high church Protestants? Nothing!

Personally, I believe Catholics and Protestants are moving closer together everyday and I like it. Unfortunately, conservatives on both sides are frightened. Vatican II was an act of God in the Catholic Church; I am not sure if you know the story? Pope John XIII was basically chosen because he was considered most likely NOT to make waves. To his credit, he shocked the entire Roman Catholic world by calling a council to 'open the windows of the church, allowing fresh air into the stale corners'. I am sure the conservative establishment was horrified, especially when he called in many of the Protestant theologians of the day to offer insight.

Anyway, I got tired of being politically and religiously frightened all the time by conservatives. I will not be suffocated by doctrine and fear - doctrine is a guide - it is a map to a wilderness of freedom. I believe Christ shattered the dualism in Jewish thinking by introducing a focus of love as the 'ends' of the 'means' of doctrine and I want to pursue that love.

Ok, I am rambling.....