Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ronald Nolette]

It is classic Gnosticism, because the core doctrine of this belief is that a person will go to a paradise of some sort regardless of what they do while their soul is trapped in their physical bodies. When Simon Magus started his counterfeit church, he blended this belief with the doctrine concerning salvation. Where you do think the belief that obeying God isn't necessary came from? It certainly didn't come from Christ or any of the epistles.

Well I went back and looked up core beliefs of gnosticism- eternal security is not one of them. salvation through ascending through the levels of "gnosis" is. I would like to see your reference for gnostics and eternal security, as is spelled out in Scripture.

 

[Cassandra]

Show from Scripture where sin currently hurts the Lord.

now it's currently..
'If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:6

Should be good enough to show--for most folk anyway.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

i would think that if you disobeyed, and were unrepentant, as you would be in unbelief, unless repentnce is made before death, that's it.

Well you can think what you wish, I will accept what is written as written without people adding their thoughts. That has been the bane of Christianity down through the centuries- people adding their own thoughts and before long, they become part of the narrative.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, you go and learn! I'm not the one thinking it is perfectly fine to hurt the Lord, and encourage others to do so, and not repent, and think my feet don't stink.

Neiother am I! That is just you jumping to false conclusions based on your own presumptiousness instead of asking me and discovering what I think!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are reaching with respect to the children scenario. You can't make yourpoint so you come off with something else?

And as for shellfish and pork, I sure don't eat them. I follow the dietary laws. They were not mosaic. Even Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean.

Genesis 7:2, KJV: "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Well you said ALL Scripture is for doctrine- I just brought up onje part of Scripture. You should jump for joy to obey it seeing as you imply that all scripture is equally applicable.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

now it's currently..
'If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:6

Should be good enough to show--for most folk anyway.

Now go and look at WHO this was written to and why! So you believe disobedience is cause for losing salvation.

Then you believe that Jesus did not die for all your sins and paid the price for all your sins.Just the sins before you got saved? I do not know what you believe.

But if you take this verse at the face value without its context- and cause it to mean oby like you tried with believe- then if you have sinned since your conversion- you are hopelessly lost!

But look at the whole letter, then the context in which it is written in and then go learn what a verb means when it is in the 2nd aorist active participle accusative case singular.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

now it's currently..
'If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:6

Should be good enough to show--for most folk anyway.

But to grant you the benefit of the doubt and to assume you have not been well studied in the Scriptures let me remind you of something:

1 Peter 1:7
King James Version

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

This trying or proving is done by melting down the gold until it is liquid. Dross rises to the surface and can obscure the gold. The Godsmith then skims off the dross.

by using this analogy Jesus is telling us that there are times when He tries our faith, allows deep seated sin from our flesh to rise to the surface and then skims them off. sometimes this dross(sin) can obscure the gold.

This blends perfectly well with the fact that we are perfected forever and god isa now in th eprocess of making us holy ans He has declared us. and that He trains us harshly at times, to rid us of the deep seated habits of sin in our lives.

God is not finished with any of His children. He that began that good work WILL complete till the Day of Christ!

The bible has many passages that make it clear that people who "appeared" to be believers and then walk away and stay away were never believers to begin with!

But for believers who struggle, stumble or even rebel for a period:

Psalm 37:23-24
King James Version

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Is He speaking of flax and reeds? God forbid! He is speaking of believers who are weak in the faith!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Post# 636
The “church” are the people who continue faithful in the Word.
The “church” is not a building or institution.
Your charge is in error.

Nobody said the Church was a "building".
The Church id the visible Body of Christ - and it DOES have leadership and hierarchy (1 Thess. 5:12 , 1 Tim. 5:17, 1 Cor. 12:28).

It is NOT an invisible dispersion of perpetually-splintering "believers" all practicing different doctrines.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nobody said the Church was a "building".
The Church id the visible Body of Christ - and it DOES have leadership and hierarchy (1 Thess. 5:12 , 1 Tim. 5:17, 1 Cor. 12:28).

It is NOT an invisible dispersion of perpetually-splintering "believers" all practicing different doctrines.

So are you saying you are old school catholic and only believe practicing catholics are pat of the body of Christ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The instant the Eastern church split away you became a denomination.
Just by definition you are a denomination since there are more than one Christian faiths.
The most you could claim, if it was true, is that you might be the only true denomination among all the Christian denominations.

Spoken like the historically-bankrupt person you are . . .

The Catholic Church was called the "Catholic Church" over 1000 years BEFORE the East-West split in the 11rh century - my ignorant friend.
Do your homework.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here's the unity of the body of Christ that Jesus prayed for - "I in them":

"that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us..." John 17:21
"...so that they may be one as We are one— I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united" John 17:22-23
​

"I in them". That's how we are unified. That prayer got answered when the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to indwell each person who believes. And so, all believers, individually, spread out to the four corners of the world are unified in Christ and each other by virtue of the indwelling of the one Holy Spirit, not by virtue of a one world church institution.

Meanwhile, practical, outward unity of the brethren in the Spirit is achieved by being at peace with one another, not by unity of doctrine.

"...the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." Ephesians 4:3​

Unity of doctrine can't happen, and won't happen in this life, because we're all at different levels of personal growth:

"...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ." Ephesians 4:13​

The simple fact that there are always those still learning and maturing to the full measure of Christ shows us that unity of doctrine is not possible in this life. Not that God doesn't want us in unity of doctrine:

"I appeal to you, brothers...that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction." 1 Corinthians 1:10
​

But that happens, individually, over time, as each of us grow in knowledge and understanding, not by virtue of attending a unifying, one and only approved institution as the Catholics insist. Your unity of the true people of God in an institutional entity of priests and doctrine is not Biblical. That's not what the unity of the body of Christ is! Our unity is through the Spirit in the bond of peace as each of us in the disunity of our doctrines are growing up into unity of faith and knowledge.

What an asinine and completely bankrupt understanding of the ONENESS and UNITY that Jesus fervently prayed for at the Last Supper in John 17.

Contrary to your nonsense above in RED - unity of doctrine is NOT something that the Apostles simply overlooked or considered to be "unimportant". The constantly pushed for Christians to be like-minded in belief AND practice. We see this clearly at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and in their writings (2 Thess. 2:15,1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Tim. 1:12-14, 1 Pet. 5:1-11).

 

[BreadOfLife]

So are you saying you are old school catholic and only believe practicing catholics are pat of the body of Christ?

Nope - that's not what I said.

Whereas ALL Christians are incorporated into Christ through Baptism - Protestant Christians are self-separated from the Church and in need of return.
ALL Christians are related to the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Protestant Christians are self-separated from the Church and in need of return.

How can you prove this?

 

[BreadOfLife]

"...the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Romans 4:6​

"Righteousness apart from works"...the Kryptonite of the Catholic church.

Paul is talking about works of the LAW.

He is NOT talking about the works that God prepared for us in advance (Heb. 2:10).
THOSE works are an essential element of Christian faith (James 2:14-24) - which appears to be Kryptonite for Protestants.
That's why your Protestant Fathers like Luther and Calvin wanted this Book ejected from the Canon.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How can you prove this?

Ummmm, a little thing called the Protestant Revolt ("Reformation") in the 16th century and all of the splintering since then to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions ALL teaching different doctrines.
This ALL came out of the ONE (Matt. 18:16) visible Church (Matt. 5:14).

NOT difficult to prove.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I dodged nothing (the absence of your exegesis of Hebrews 6:4-6, now that's a dodge, lol).
The word of God is not just black and white words by itself.
The word of God includes the voice of the Holy Spirit explaining and expounding on the written word through the gifts of wisdom and discernment given to various believers in the body of Christ.

Now, about that Hebrews 6:4-6 exegesis you owe me...

And since you seem to reject Sola Scripture and believe that Christians are endowed with "wisdom and discernment" - explain why there are tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that teach different - and even competing doctrines based on this "wisdom and discernment".

While you're at it - explain to me how 2 Christians from different denominations work out their differences according to Jesus's prescription in Matt. 18:15-18. WHOSE Authority makes the decision?

As to (Heb. 6:4-6) I already exegeted that passage WAY back in post #460. The fact that YOU rejected my explanation doesn't mean that I "owe" you an explanation.
It simply illiustrates YOUR dishonesty again . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Go back and look them up.

I responded to all of those.
Got any other ones?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Spoken like the historically-bankrupt person you are . . .

The Catholic Church was called the "Catholic Church" over 1000 years BEFORE the East-West split in the 11rh century - my ignorant friend.
Do your homework.

Don't evade the point.
You are split into denominations.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Contrary to your nonsense above in RED - unity of doctrine is NOT something that the Apostles simply overlooked or considered to be "unimportant".

If you think I said that then you didn't read my post very carefully, lol. ↓↓↓

Not that God doesn't want us in unity of doctrine:

"I appeal to you, brothers...that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction." 1 Corinthians 1:10

 

[Stumpmaster]

Ummmm, a little thing called the Protestant Revolt ("Reformation") in the 16th century and all of the splintering since then to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions ALL teaching different doctrines.
This ALL came out of the ONE (Matt. 18:16) visible Church (Matt. 5:14).

NOT difficult to prove.

Damn The Inquisition.