Scripture Revelation That Many Throw Out About the Future 1,000 Years Reign by Christ

[Timtofly]

That "day of the Lord" is the last day of THIS PRESENT world earth age. It is also the 1st day start of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. You do understand that once Christ returns on that day and subdues all the wicked, that means the start of His reign over the nations, right? Thus Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" = start of Christ's "thousand years" reign.

Thus I NEVER insisted Christ's 2nd coming is after the "day of the Lord"; that's YOUR mind playing tricks on you.

So can't you see that "day of the Lord" which both Apostles Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night" is about the LAST DAY of this world with the deceived being shocked at seeing Christ's coming? And in Revelation 16:15 Jesus said that He comes "as a thief".




It does not have to last a full 24 hrs. to be the 'last day' or "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes. Nothing is written to declare it will literally be a 24 hr. period. You are straining at a gnat.

The only Millennium period defined in God's Word is Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect priests per Revelation 20, and also the events of Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

And God's Word reveals that Christ's 2nd coming will occur on the "day of the Lord" (Zech.14 for one example). Apostles Paul and Peter spoke of that very timing in a matter-of-fact manner, since that was first written in the Zechariah 14 Chapter. Son Paul in 1 Thess.5 didn't have to mention Jesus' coming "as a thief in the night", because it should have already been understood from the prophets, and even from what Lord Jesus Himself taught in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about His coming. And Peter didn't have to mention Jesus' coming "as a thief in the night" either in 2 Peter 3 simply because of the same thing, it was already revealed beforehand.

Now those who have a problem with memory, should study God's written Word a lot harder to overcome that problem, and pray about it, because The Holy Spirit can overcome that even with those who have memory problems. Yet those who haven't even studied their Old Testament Bible show a major disadvantage from the beginning.



Well, yes it is, the last day of this present 2nd world age.

Christ's coming will not be the final day of this 2nd world earth age, because the new heavens and a new earth won't begin until all the wicked, Satan, hell, and death are all destroyed in the future "lake of fire". And that won't happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

Thus the future "thousand years" reign of Christ is actually part of this 2nd world earth age period that begins on the day of His future 2nd coming. The NHNE time is the Eternity, the 3rd world earth age, after Christ's future Millennial reign. The NHNE time represents the "third heaven" which Apostle Paul was allowed to see via the Spirit per 2 Cor.12.




NOPE!
That "last day" Jesus mentioned is about the still future... resurrection that will occur on the day of His future 2nd coming, that will be the last day of this present world time. That will be the day when He raises the "asleep" saints of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 that He brings with Him when He comes.

The Day of the Lord is the last present time 1000 years. The Day of the Lord is not another creation.

For instance, the Day of the Flood, was the last day of sons of God living on the earth, but not the last day of creation. Only Adam's dead corruptible flesh lived on the earth after that in a new condition now called the 4 seasons of weather. There was no rain nor seasons prior to the Flood.


Now, at the Second Coming it will still be the same earth, so no last day of what you claim, present world. The end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will be addressed at the Second Coming, but the dead are not changed at that point. The dead still have to wait in death and sheol until after the Day of the Lord.


None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will live on the earth in the thousand years after the Second Coming. It will only be sons of God living on the earth like prior to the Flood.

Those "asleep" saints will not come to live on the earth, any more than those sons of God prior to the Flood. None of those currently in heaven come to earth until the NHNE in Revelation 21, after the Day of the Lord. Revelation 21 is not the Day of the Lord.

If you are going by "world ages", there are more than just 2. There was a period of time becore Adam disobeyed God. That age was changed more when Adam sinned, than even the Second Coming and Day of the Lord, will change back after the Second Coming. Especially if you think sin continues for another thousand years. The sons of God did not die prior to Adam's disobedience. They can die during the Day of the Lord if they disobey God, just as much as death was evident the instant Adam sinned.

 

[CTK]

You are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16 out of context. The dead in Christ rising first is not a reference to the first resurrection. It is a reference to the fact that after Jesus descends from heaven, the first thing that will happen is that the dead in Christ are resurrected. Then they, together with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

According to scripture, Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

According to Paul, what you think is the first resurrection is actually the second resurrection because Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection. So, I believe you need to adjust your understanding of Revelation 20 accordingly.


Yes, I agree with this. With this in mind, there are no mortals who would survive and populate the earth for a thousand years. Which I think you agree with because I think your view is similar to Seventh-Day Adventists where you think the earth is desolate for a thousand years and Jesus reigns with His people in heaven during that time. But, then, where do the rebels on the earth who number "as the sand of the sea" in Revelation 20:7-9 come from?


Obviously, I'm not going to agree with your timing of all this since I don't see the thousand years as following Christ's return.

This is also pretty lengthy and I have to head out for a while.. I will try and address this later on ... got to give it the time and attention...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are still placing Jesus into a position of needing to be redeemed, ie made alive.

No, I'm not. He was without sin and has no need for redemption. Please let the adults speak. No one has any interest in your childish comments that make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Davy]

The Day of the Lord is the last present time 1000 years. The Day of the Lord is not another creation.

For instance, the Day of the Flood, was the last day of sons of God living on the earth, but not the last day of creation. Only Adam's dead corruptible flesh lived on the earth after that in a new condition now called the 4 seasons of weather. There was no rain nor seasons prior to the Flood.

That's nonsense. God's creation of this 'present' world earth age, a 2nd one, was finished on the 6th day as written in Genesis 2, which then says God rested on the 7th day.

So if you want to discuss Bible topics, you MUST first learn to actually READ and follow The Bible as written.

 

[Davy]

You are still placing Jesus into a position of needing to be redeemed, ie made alive. Jesus is not part of the order. Spiritually dead people are the firstfruits in Christ, who are part of their own order.

And you are trying... to change the subject of the Rev.20 events to something unrecognizable from what is actually written.

And your idea of "placing Jesus into a position of needing to be redeemed", that is truly a CRAZY and IGNORANT statement. That sounds exactly like something a blinded Jew who does not understand New Testament Scripture would come up with.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure I do. But God's purpose of election does not depend on man's choice; rather, as Paul says, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), and "there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).

You are using this argument to state only a few are the elect.

That there is a remnant, does not mean; all have not been elected from God's viewpont. All are part of the elect, from God's point of view. Even the remnant had to make a choice one way or the other. God did not take that choice away, nor did God force a limited amount of humans to be the elect.

God did provide the means necessary for all mankind to choose to be part of God's election. Perhaps more directly in some cases, like Israel. But the Gentiles were never excluded in entirety from God's election. They were just under the bondage of sin and in darkness, as the default position of being Adam's offspring.

That shows that all are the elect. All can choose to be part of the elect. Most will not make that choice, and many will be able to make that choice standing as the dead at the GWT Judgment event.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, God elected who He elected. As Creator, he has every right to, as Paul says, to have mercy and compassion on whomever He wills, and also to harden whomever He wills, to make out some/many for honorable use and some/many for dishonorable use.

That is not election. That is serving God. Even a wicked sinner can serve God's purposes, and reject their election in God's grace.

 

[Timtofly]

3. The resurrection of both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" happen on that day of Christ's future 2nd coming. ALL... in the graves are raised on that day of His coming Jesus revealed in John 5:28-29.

This is not found in Scripture but man's erroneous theological opinion.

The dead are not resurrected prior to the thousand years, and you saying the Second Coming is both prior to and after the thousand years is you contradicting your point 3 with your points, 1 and 2.

Daniel 12 is not talking about the Second Coming, but the GWT Judgment a thousand years later.

 

[Timtofly]

Where do you (anyone) disagree with this timeline of year end events in chapter 20?

Timeline​

1. The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection (the righteous dead)

• The dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive in the faith will be caught up together with them.

Key verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17​

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds…”​

​

1 Corinthians 15:51-52​

“...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... at the last trump... the dead shall be raised incorruptible…”​

​

Revelation 20:4-6​

“...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection…”​

2.a. The Wicked Alive Are Destroyed by the Brightness of His Coming

• Those who rejected Christ and are still alive at His coming will be slain.

Key verses:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9​

“...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven... taking vengeance on them that know not God...”​

​

2 Thessalonians 2:8​

“...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming…”​

​

Revelation 19:21​

“And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse…”​

2.b. The Beast and the False Prophet Are Thrown into the Lake of Fire

• The beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.

Key verse:

Revelation 19:20​

“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”​

3. Satan Is Bound and Cast into the Abyss for 1,000 Years

• Satan is temporarily imprisoned, unable to deceive the nations during the millennium.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:1-3​

“...And he laid hold on the dragon... and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit...”​

4. The Millennium – The Saints Reign with Christ (7th day Sabbath)

• The righteous are with Christ; the earth lies desolate.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:4​

“...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”​

​

Jeremiah 4:23-26 (symbolic description of a desolate earth during the millennium)​

5.a. Satan Is Loosed After the 1,000 Years

• Satan is released and gathers the wicked for one final rebellion.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:7-9​

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed... to deceive the nations... they went up... and compassed the camp of the saints...”​

5.b. Satan Is Destroyed in the Lake of Fire

• After his final rebellion, Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Key verse:

Revelation 20:10​

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...”​

5.c. The Second Resurrection – The Wicked Dead Are Raised for Judgment

• All the unrighteous dead are resurrected to face final judgment.

Key verse:

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...”​

6. The Great White Throne Judgment

• The final judgment of the wicked before eternal destruction.

Key verses:

Revelation 20:11-15​

“And I saw a great white throne... and the dead were judged... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”​

7. A New Heaven and a New Earth

• After sin and death are destroyed, God creates a new, eternal home for the redeemed.

Key verses:

Revelation 21:1-4​

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth... and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes...”​

Neither Revelation 19 nor 20 deal with the Second Coming. That premise starts your whole post off in the wrong direction. There is no First & Second Resurrection, separated by a thousand years. Understanding the Second Coming, would clear up your misconceptions of Revelation 20.

What is a timeline of "year end events" even mean?

Revelation 20 only mentions a small group of beheaded people called the camp of the saints. They are not the redeemed church in heaven. They don't symbolize the church at all. The church is not on the earth during the thousand years. The church is not resurrected at the Second Coming. The church is already resurrected in Paradise, and are not part of the dead, period. At the Second Coming, the church on the earth is gathered from the earth and placed in Paradise per the 5th Seal until God is finished redemption on earth.

Can you find the OT redeemed living on earth during the last 2 millennia, any where in Scripture? Why would the church live on earth during the last millennia? Jesus must reign, and on earth, during the Millennium to finish the work started prior to creation. 1 Corinthians 15:25-27

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

Your timeline is correct. What exactly happens from your post is not from Scripture, but human theology taught in the church for the last thousand years. None of Adam's offspring live in death during the millennium. There is a resurrection that removes the effect of Adam's punishment. That is the first resurrection. Lazarus experienced the first resurrection, when he stepped put of his grave. The thief on the cross experienced the first resurrection and entered Paradise, that day, not 2 millennium later. The first resurrection is not a chronological order. The first resurrection is leaving behind Adam's dead corruptible flesh and being made alive into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Those beheaded received the first resurrection, and then never physically died again, the entire millennium. They have offspring with the first resurrection, who never physically die. The only death is the penalty of disobedience against God during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

No one is born a sinner. They are a dead sinner the moment they disobey God. The millennium starts out with a remnant of redeemed people having the first resurrection, who multiply and fill the earth for 25 to 30 generations of first resurrection humans, who cannot naturally die. But death will happen to the disobedient just like Adam lost his permanent incorruptible physical body for a corruptible body of death. But the difference will be that they will be removed from the earth and placed in death, to stand before God at the GWT Judgment, for a chance at redemption.


The Second Coming reverses Adam's punishment on the earth. Punishment will be directed on the National level, or instant death on the personal level. When Adam was punished it effected the entire creation for 6,000 years. Christ replaces Adam just as 1 Corinthians 15 states. Jesus will be the Adam of the Day of the Lord. We should understand, He will do a better job than Adam did, as he was already obedient at the Cross, replacing Adam's disobedience.

Amil seem bent on denying that this current creation still has perfect Last Day of the Lord set aside by God. Exodus 20:8-10 warns us against forgetting or denying the 7th Day.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God."

God promised us the Revelation 20 millennium in Exodus 20:10. No work because sin will no longer be extant.

Those claiming all the wicked like Davey live during the Day of the Lord, are wrong, saying they are resurrected prior to the thousand years. That is premillennialism gone the wrong direction somewhere, and strayed from God's Word. In Revelation 19 all of Adam's offspring are killed, and no one is resurrected to keep death and sin alive during the millennium. Sin is also disobedience against God, not just being born into sin. There is still a rule of law. There is no living in Death as Adam and Eve passed on to all their offspring. The first resurrection rules out living in sin and wickedness.

 

[PinSeeker]

...you have all the redeemed as the dead waiting to stand before Christ at the GWT Judgment.

Romans 2:3-8... "Do you suppose, O man ~ you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself ~ that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."

John 5:28-29... Jesus says, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Show one verse that backs up your claim that all of Adam's offspring have to wait until the GWT Judgment.

Well, how about two passages (directly above)? That's certainly not an exhaustive list (Matthew 25:31-46 comes quickly to mind, for sure), but yeah... <smile> I'm not sure what you mean by "wait(ing) until the GWT Judgment," but there you go...

If not, then you contradict yourself.

Well, maybe that would have been the case, I guess, but that would be a no. <smile>

If a person's name in the book means they are elect, then every one is elect, because all were named.

The redeemed... and those who still are yet to be redeemed but will be... are all named.

That is until their name was removed, and then they were no longer part of the elect.

That will never happen. Jesus will lose not one. This is the will of the Father, and Jesus and the Father are one (John 10).

There is no Scripture stating God places names into the Lamb's book of life as history unfolds.

Right; I never said or insinuated such. But, neither will any be removed. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

There is no Scripture that states God only wrote down a limited number of names.

Yes, there is... They were written before the beginning, before the foundation of the world.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are using this argument to state only a few are the elect.

Right, well, we don't know how many, of course, only that it's an innumerable multitude. But... not everyone. So, yes, because it's true. <smile>

That there is a remnant, does not mean; all have not been elected from God's viewpont.

You do understand that the very definition of 'remnant' is less than the whole, right? God has preserved for Himself a remnant of the whole of humanity. Goodness gracious:

• "In that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on him who struck them, but will lean on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return." (Isaiah 10)
• “Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel, who have been borne by Me from before your birth, carried from the womb; even to your old age I am He, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save." (Isaiah 46)
• “'Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!' declares the Lord. Therefore thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: 'You have scattered My flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the Lord. Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply. I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the Lord." (Jeremiah 23)
• "Then the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples like dew from the Lord, like showers on the grass, which delay not for a man nor wait for the children of man. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among the flocks of sheep, which, when it goes through, treads down and tears in pieces, and there is none to deliver." (Micah 5)
• "Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the Potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? ...in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed He says in Hosea, 'Those who were not My people I will call "My people," and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved.” And in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not My people," there they will be called "sons of the living God.”' And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out His sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.'” (Romans 9)
• "And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, 'Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for His Name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, “After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord, Who makes these things known from of old."'" (Acts 15)

Not an exhaustive list, by any means, but this should be sufficient...

...the remnant had to make a choice one way or the other.

Well sure. Everyone makes a choice. No one denies that. The heart, the spirit, is the issue, as I have repeatedly said.

...God force a limited amount of humans to be the elect.

God does not "force" anything. We know we are elect because of our faith ~ the assurance of God, conviction by the Spirit (Hebrews 11:1), which we have as a direct result of our having been born again of the Spirit, our having been given a new spirit by God. This is why we are then able to, yes, choose wisely, and then on an ongoing basis "make our calling and election sure"... "because God is at work in us so that we then will and work according to His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

God did provide the means necessary for all mankind to choose to be part of God's election.

And that would be... Jesus, and His atonement. <smile> In that sense ~ but that sense only ~ Jesus's atonement was/is unlimited. But there is, of course a different sense, in which His atonement was/is limited. As I have said. No one deserves, and not everyone receives, God's salvific grace (unmerited favor).

Perhaps more directly in some cases, like Israel. But the Gentiles were never excluded in entirety from God's election. They were just under the bondage of sin and in darkness, as the default position of being Adam's offspring.

That shows that all are the elect.

Absolutely not. See above. Ah, well, in this sense... in the sense of Joel 2:32... that only the elect are called by God. Joel quotes God Himself as saying, "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." Again, Paul says in Romans 9 of the elect that God "has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

All can choose to be part of the elect.

Because they are elect, and because they have been born again of the Spirit and have this new spirit that has been given to them. What God does in this case, Timtofly, is He sets us free to do so, to do His will. He has to do this, because previous to being born again of the Spirit, we are slaves to unrighteousness (Romans 5), in complete bondage to sin, and our will is ~ was, thank God, for those of us who have been born again ~ to do the will of our father the devil (John 8).

Most will not make that choice,

Right. Agreed.

and many will be able to make that choice standing as the dead at the GWT Judgment event.

Disagreed. <smile> At the final Judgment, the time to do this will have passed.

That is not election. That is serving God.

We serve God because we have been elected" ~ are members of God's elect ~ who have been born again of the Spirit and thus are, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10, "(God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Even a wicked sinner can serve God's purposes...

Absolutely. God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28).

...and reject their election in God's grace.

Those who are elect of God will not do that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I'm not. He was without sin and has no need for redemption. Please let the adults speak. No one has any interest in your childish comments that make no sense whatsoever.

You keep saying Jesus was made alive first, and that is the first in the order of being made alive. Paul is talking about the OT redeemed in their own order as the firstfruits in Christ. You cannot handle the truth of God's Word, so you just throw out insults, thinking that makes you a superior poster.

 

[Timtofly]

That's nonsense. God's creation of this 'present' world earth age, a 2nd one, was finished on the 6th day as written in Genesis 2, which then says God rested on the 7th day.

So if you want to discuss Bible topics, you MUST first learn to actually READ and follow The Bible as written.

Explain the first earth age in Genesis 1, and how the second earth age started in Genesis 2. You still don't make any sense on earth ages. Are we in the first or second earth age right now?

The first earth was destroyed at the time of ghe Flood, so any age change did not happen until then. I can read what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:6-7

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Peter says the earth perished, was destroyed at the Flood. The Second Coming at the 6th Seal, is the next time the earth will be destroyed. Then Jesus will create a new earth, but still this present age for the last thousand years. That is 3 different forms the earth will go through.


1. Perfection from Genesis 1 until the Flood.

2. Death from the Flood until the Day of the Lord.

3. Life during the Day of the Lord.


Then this creation will be over and Revelation 21 will begin an entirely different creation altogether that we cannot even fathom nor comprehend. As all creation will be bigger and different.

There was not a different creation at the Flood just a new heavens and earth. There will not be a different creation at the Second Coming, just a new heavens and earth.

But after the Day of the Lord, that NHNE will be a totally different creation.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, it is not what it is.

LOL!

You think that is talking about what God chooses for someone before they are even born, but scripture does not teach that.

In speaking of the elect of God, SI, Paul uses Jacob and Esau as examples of... in the larger sense, all those elect of God (Jacob) and all those not elect of God (Esau), and he says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" So yes, it is what it is.

He loves the whole world and sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2).

In a certain sense, that is true, as I have said many times. But God's purposes never fail; they cannot be thwarted (Job 42), and again, God Himself says through Isaiah that His Word never returns to Him empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which it was sent (Isaiah 55).

With regard to God's love... You have to deal with the fact that God hated Esau, and thus hates all of those not among His elect. We have to do something with that; we have to try to make sense of that. We can't make it, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I have loved also but just not quite as much." <smile> The first two things we have to conclude are, 1) 'loved' and 'hated' are both actions toward something, in this case people, and 2) this hate is not the opposite of love, or opposed to it in any way. Again, Paul, quoting God, says what he says in Romans 9:13; the one thing we cannot say is that it's not really true.

The idea that He predestined some to salvation...

No, predestined some to be conformed to the image of His Son, Spiritual Israelite. That He decided to do so certainly has implications regarding salvation, but the predestining is not to salvation. Those two things have to be pulled apart from one another.

Scripture says that He offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11), but your view makes that offer disingenuous for most.

Over and over and over again, the same objections... Yes, this is the free offer of the Gospel. Everyone is equally eligible. Except that's not quite how it should be said; everyone is equally and totally undeserving. So then the question arises, "How and why then is anyone saved?", and the answer to that is, because God has mercy/compassion on some ~ to those whom He wills ~ and this Scripture calls grace... the grace of God, which is unmerited favor.

As for Him having mercy and compassion on whomever He wills, yes, that is true.

Right. Exactly.

But, you again only tell part of the story. He wants to have mercy on all people.

In a sense ~ see above ~ this is true, but He only gives this mercy to those whom He chooses to do so, to those whom He wills, as you just said. Both are absolutely true. So, you have to do something with that. You may not want to, but you do. You cannot soft-pedal in any way one or the other. There has to be a reconciliation of the two. And... there is.

And He does not thwart His own desires.

LOL! Well, that's a funny way of putting it, but everything God does is for His own glory, and sometimes, what He has purposed to do ~ again, for His own glory ~ trumps His desires.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Right, no doubt, but He doesn't have this mercy on all... only to those He wills to do so.

You didn't really address what I said...

I have addressed everything you've said. Over and over again.

I said that it seems VERY disingenuous as well as contradictory to say that Jesus's atonement was sufficient to cover all and that all can be saved when at the same time you believe that He did not die for all and purposely made it so that only certain people, and not all people, would be saved.

If you understand those two things in their proper sense... which I've enunciated many times very clearly... then it is not disingenuous or contradictory in any way. I understand why you would think so, but it's not.

So, how exactly is Jesus's atonement sufficient to cover all so that all can be saved when, in your view, He did not die for all and God purposely makes it so that some cannot be saved by not giving them the faith they need to be saved that, in your view, only He can provide?

As if I haven't addressed and answered this many, many times before now... <smile> Jesus's atonement is sufficient to cover all, and infinitely more, if there were), so unlimited in that sense. But we know that not all will be saved... many will not be born again of the Spirit and will not enter into eternal life but into judgment in the age to come. But again, no one ~ not one ~ is deserving; all have fallen short of the glory of God. So God has this salvific grace ~ this mercy and compassion, this unmerited favor ~ on some... but not all... and in this sense Jesus's atonment is limited... to God's elect, who receive this mercy and compassion from God, again, not depending on anyone willing or working to make it happen but on God, who has mercy. Again:

• The disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" And Jesus replied, "With man this is impossible, but nothing is impossible with God." (Luke 18:26-27 )
• "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (Jesus to His disciples, and us by extension, John 15:16).

We are told a great deal about salvation and how it comes about in scripture.

We certainly are. Yes, we are shown and told of God's grace throughout the Bible. Certainly. Of being born again of the Spirit, we have to put ourselves in the position of Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus says, "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

It is not some mystery that can't be explained and that only God knows.

Ah, well, it depends on the sense in which you mean that, actually. <smile> But yeah, in the sense in which you're saying that, yes, I agree.

No, it's an accusation against your understanding of God Himself.

Fair enough. No, but fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL!

LOL!

In speaking of the elect of God, SI, Paul uses Jacob and Esau as examples of... in the larger sense, all those elect of God (Jacob) and all those not elect of God (Esau), and he says, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" So yes, it is what it is.

Oops. It looks like you didn't bother looking at the Old Testament references that Paul made there because what you're saying does not fit the context of what He referred to there from the Old Testament. Paul was NOT talking about individual election to salvation there. He was NOT referring to Jacob being elected to salvation and Esau not being elected to salvation.

It also is not talking about God literally loving Jacob and hating Esau. It refers to God blessing Jacob more than Esau. The word "hate" is used in a relative sense there similar to how Jesus said we should hate our family members in order to be His disciple (Luke 14:26) which means we should love Him more than our family members to be worthy of Him (Matt 10:37).

Read the OT text that Paul was referring to in order to see the context of what he was talking about there in Romans 9.

Genesis 25:21 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord. 23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

See this? The reference to the elder serving the younger is NOT a reference to Jacob and Esau, but rather the nations that would descend from them. The nation that would descend from Esau, which was Edom, served the nation that descended from Jacob, which was obviously Israel. God's purpose in election was to have salvation come through Jacob's line by way of the nation of Israel rather than through Esau's line. Salvation obviously was made possible by Jesus and His genealogy goes back to Jacob and not Esau as per God's purpose in election.

In a certain sense, that is true, as I have said many times.

In what sense exactly do you think that God loves the whole world enough to send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world?

But God's purposes never fail; they cannot be thwarted (Job 42), and again, God Himself says through Isaiah that His Word never returns to Him empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which it was sent (Isaiah 55).

With regard to God's love... You have to deal with the fact that God hated Esau, and thus hates all of those not among His elect.

Oops. Once again you have misinterpreted scripture. No, God did not literally hate Esau. I touched on this above already. The word hate is not always used literally in scripture. It sometimes is used in a relative sense. Clearly, when Jesus said we should hate our family members in order to be His disciple (Luke 14:26) He was not saying to literally hate them. To think that God would literally hate anyone shows a lack of understanding of who God is. Let alone thinking He would hate them before they were even born! That's nonsense. Why are you so willing to believe something like that which so clearly contradicts John 3:16 and 1 John 2:1-2 which say that God loves the whole world?

We have to do something with that; we have to try to make sense of that.

It's not possible to make sense of how you interpret it. I don't need to make sense of your false interpretation. You need to correct your interpretation. That misinterpretation has a domino effect that leads to more misinterpretations.

We can't make it, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I have loved also but just not quite as much." <smile>

Why do you smile at that as if that can't be true? Unbelievable. That is exactly what it means. If only you actually looked at the Old Testament scripture which Paul referenced you would see that. This is one of those rare times where the OT sheds light on the NT instead of the other way around since Paul did not specify that the OT scripture he was referencing had to do with the two nations that descended from Jacob and Esau.

The first two things we have to conclude are, 1) 'loved' and 'hated' are both actions toward something, in this case people, and 2) this hate is not the opposite of love, or opposed to it in any way. Again, Paul, quoting God, says what he says in Romans 9:13; the one thing we cannot say is that it's not really true.

LOL. Look at what you're saying here. You just read that text as if you're reading a news article. Do you think that's how we should interpret scripture? Just look at it and draw conclusions from it without considering the context first? Is not spiritual discernment required when interpreting scripture? We should just see a statement that says God hated Esau and assume we should take that literally despite other scripture saying God loves the whole world? That's how dispensationalists interpret scripture. They just take everything literally and ignore the context. Don't be like them.

No, predestined some to be conformed to the image of His Son, Spiritual Israelite. That He decided to do so certainly has implications regarding salvation, but the predestining is not to salvation. Those two things have to be pulled apart from one another.

In what way? I don't know what you're saying here since you're being vague.

Over and over and over again, the same objections... Yes, this is the free offer of the Gospel. Everyone is equally eligible.

How can you say this when you know full well that in your view only some are given faith and you believe that is the only way that people can "accept" the offer? In your view, the only ones eligible are the ones that God chooses to have faith. It's disingenuous to suggest that anyone else is eligible to accept God's offer of salvation in your view. And, really, how is it even an offer in your view? It's not something God offers in your view that people have to choose to accept or not. In your view it's just something He gives that people automatically accept without having to choose whether to accept it or not.

Except that's not quite how it should be said; everyone is equally and totally undeserving. So then the question arises, "How and why then is anyone saved?", and the answer to that is, because God has mercy/compassion on some ~ to those whom He wills ~ and this Scripture calls grace... the grace of God, which is unmerited favor.

Yet, scripture also says that God wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). So, does He purposely thwart His own desires or does He make man responsible to choose whether or not to repent and acknowledge that he can't save himself in order to receive His mercy? The latter sure makes a lot more sense than the former to me.

In a sense ~ see above ~ this is true,

LOL. In what sense? This is always your response when your view has been refuted. You say yeah, that's true, but only in a sense. You can't bring yourself to just say "yeah, that's true, so I need to adjust my beliefs accordingly to not contradict that truth".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

but He only gives this mercy to those whom He chooses to do so, to those whom He wills, as you just said. Both are absolutely true. So, you have to do something with that. You may not want to, but you do.

May not want to? LOL. I have done something with that many times! Are you kidding me? Do you still not know what I believe? I have said many times that I believe man has free will and must choose to repent and believe or not. Yet, you're acting as if I haven't already said this, despite saying it many times. So, God gives mercy to those who choose to repent and believe. He wants everyone to choose to repent and believe because He wants to have mercy on everyone. But, He doesn't make anyone repent and believe.

You think God just give mercy to some for no discernible reason and does not give mercy to the rest. Another one of those things that you think can't be explained, but we just have to accept it. No, I don't accept that. Scripture tells us the reasons that He has mercy on people.

Psalm 32:10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, mercy shall compass him about.

Psalm 33:18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 147:11 The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

You cannot soft-pedal in any way one or the other. There has to be a reconciliation of the two. And... there is.

Yes, there is, and I have explained how to reconcile the two. You say there is a reconciliation of the two and then proceed to give no explanation for what it is. I guess I shold just take your word for that?

LOL! Well, that's a funny way of putting it, but everything God does is for His own glory, and sometimes, what He has purposed to do ~ again, for His own glory ~ trumps His desires.

Why is it funny? How else can you put it? You know that He has desires that do not come to fruition. He desires for all to be saved (1 Timothy 3:6), but not all are saved. He desired for the Jews of His day to repent, but for the most part they did not. They thwarted His desires for them.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Notice it doesn't say He didn't gather them together like a hen gathers her chickens under her wings because He would not. He didn't do that because they would not (were not willing). But, He wanted them to. How do you explain that except that they had free will and made the wrong choice to reject Him instead of accepting Him like He wanted them to? You can't say it was God's will for most of them to reject Him or else Jesus would not have said what He did. And He put the blame for them not being willing entirely on them. God did not thwart/trump His own desires, those unbelieving Jews thwarted/trumped His desires. He never trumps His own desires as you are trying to claim here. There is no scriptural support for that claim.

Right, no doubt, but He doesn't have this mercy on all... only to those He wills to do so.

And, what is His reason for having mercy on some and not having mercy on the rest? You think that's something that is just unknown? I showed you scripture above indicating that He has mercy on those who put their trust in Him, who fear Him, who forsake their sins and who are merciful to others. So, scripture tells us the basis for how He determines to have mercy on someone or not. In the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 God has mercy on the tax collector because he said "God be merciful to me a sinner". Jesus explained that the reason for that was becuse "every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.".

As if I haven't addressed and answered this many, many times before now... <smile>

As if we both haven't addressed and answered almost everything related to this topic by now. Yet, here we are. <laugh>

Jesus's atonement is sufficient to cover all, and infinitely more, if there were), so unlimited in that sense.

What does this even mean? That's why I say you haven't addressed it. You just say vague things like this without any explanation for what this means. If this was really true, then why did God purposely make it so that only some would be saved and have their sins forgiven only by His choice? How can His atonement be sufficient to cover all when you at the same time believe He purposely made it so that it would not cover all? That's why I say your comments are contradictory. The reality is there is no sense in your view where Jesus's atonement is sufficient to cover all because you believe God purposely made it so that His sacrifice would only atone the sins of certain people with rest not even having any chance at all of HIs atonement covering their sins.

But we know that not all will be saved... many will not be born again of the Spirit and will not enter into eternal life but into judgment in the age to come. But again, no one ~ not one ~ is deserving; all have fallen short of the glory of God.

I, of course, am not saying anyone is deserving. That's beside the point. Since God decided, and not man, that He would provide salvation, what would be the reason why He would not give all the opportunity to be saved, knowing that He loves all people (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2)? How can you think that He loves the world when you think He purposely made it so that some (most?) of the world would not have any opportunity to be saved and instead would be guaranteed to be condemned to torment in the lake of fire for eternity?

Ah, well, it depends on the sense in which you mean that, actually. <smile> But yeah, in the sense in which you're saying that, yes, I agree.

You say it depends on the sense in which I meant that as if you don't know the sense in which I meant that, and then you proceeded to agree with me which suggests that you do know the sense in which I meant that. Okay....glad we agree on that, regardless.

 

[Timtofly]

Romans 2:3-8... "Do you suppose, O man ~ you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself ~ that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

Paul was addressing the Jews of Rome who lived under the Law of Moses.

Are you saying that Romans 1 means all of humanity are reprobate?

Why are you using specific thoughts given to a specific group as a blanket example for all of humanity since Adam and Eve? Of course all the dead stand before God at the end. But the redeemed are no longer dead now. Why do you have them back into a state of death, as these Romans were in the first century? The redeemed have not been in a state of death since the Cross, when Jesus said, "It is finished".

These verses you quoted do not claim the redeemed who have the second birth stand at the GWT Judgment event.

The redeemed are not dead.

Is Jesus lying in John 11:25?

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Do you believe that you will never die? Are you part of the dead or those who are alive in Christ?

God wrote down every name of every offspring of Adam and Eve, including Cain's name who ever lived. They are all elected by God to have eternal life. At the GWT Judgment, all names will be removed of those cast into the LOF, and it will be as though God never even knew them. But all had a chance before being removed to receive eternal life, God's free gift of Salvation.

The redeemed are not the dead standing there. They were removed from the list of Adam's dead corrupt offspring when they received the Second Birth receiving and believing in Jesus Christ, and placed into God's family as sons of God, no longer Adam's dead corruptible flesh, sealed at the day of redemption when the soul left this body of flesh fir God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

How can one with eternal life "live again"?

Some dead received eternal life prior to the thousand years.

"They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again (implying the first group had lived again) until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:"

This does not say they all lived at the same time after the thousand years. This does not say they all were dead for a thousand years and then given life all at one time.

Those beheaded lived again before the thousand years, they did not have to die and live again the third time after the thousand years. So they were not the dead standing at the GWT Judgment. God can judge any one at any time, not just a single event called the GWT in Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

You do understand that the very definition of 'remnant' is less than the whole, right? God has preserved for Himself a remnant of the whole of humanity. Goodness gracious:

They made a choice to be faithful to God, not that God forced a remnant to serve Him.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that Romans 1 means all of humanity are reprobate?

No.

Why are you using specific thoughts given to a specific group as a blanket example for all of humanity since Adam and Eve>

All of humanity in its ~ each one in his/her ~ natural state. Adam was the federal head of the human race. Read Romans 5:12 and you should see that: "...just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

Of course all the dead stand before God at the end. But the redeemed are no longer dead now.

I agree, but in that sense, the redeemed who died physically at any time before were no longer dead in their lives. So there is a sense in which, yes, as you say, at the final Judgment, only some ~ those on Jesus's left ~ will be dead. But there is also a sense ~ a different sense ~ in which everyone there will be alive. Do you not agree with that?

These verses you quoted do not claim the redeemed who have the second birth stand at the GWT Judgment event.

Do you not believe that those who were redeemed in their lifetimes did not even then have eternal life? The redeemed will be on Jesus's right in the final Judgment. And they will be standing in the congregation of the righteous, and will stand in the Judgment. Where as the wicked... not so much.

The redeemed are not dead.

Hmmm... well that depends whether you are talking about the redeemed who have died or those of us still alive. The ones who have died are ded, but in the spiritual sense are not dead at all, but alive and at home with Jesus. We ~ those of us who have been redeemed, are dead in neither sense. And those among us who are alive but not redeemed and not in Christ are in a real sense dead.

Is Jesus lying in John 11:25?

LOL! Of course not. <smile>

Do you believe that you will never die?

Hmmm... well in the sense that I think you mean that, no. But in a different sense, yes. Do you not believe you have eternal life now?

Are you part of the dead or those who are alive in Christ?

The latter of course.

God wrote down every name of every offspring of Adam and Eve, including Cain's name who ever lived.

Disagree.

They are all elected by God to have eternal life.

Disagree. No Scripture supports this at all.

At the GWT Judgment, all names will be removed of those cast into the LOF, and it will be as though God never even knew them.

Jesus will say, to those on His left at the final Judgment, finally, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." He's not merely saying "I never knew who you were" or that He didn't know them by name. No name will be removed from the Book of Life, but many will not be found there.

The redeemed are not the dead standing there.

Right.

They were removed from the list of Adam's dead corrupt offspring when they received the Second Birth receiving and believing in Jesus Christ,

There was no such list.

How can one with eternal life "live again"?

That's a funny question...

Some dead received eternal life prior to the thousand years.

The ones who were born again in Old Testament times, yes. By faith. Hebrews 11. From Abraham on up.

"They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again (implying the first group had lived again) until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:"

This does not say they all lived at the same time after the thousand years. This does not say they all were dead for a thousand years and then given life all at one time.

Right. I would never say such. Just on its face, that can be understood in at least three different ways. But only one is correct. <smile>

Those beheaded lived again before the thousand years...

Yeah, that's one of the incorrect ways. <smile>

...they did not have to die and live again the third time after the thousand years.

Yeah, I agree; that's kind of a stupid thought, really.

So they were not the dead standing at the GWT Judgment.

Agree. Although from this comment it almost seems like you think the GWT Judgment is in the past, but surely not.

God can judge any one at any time, not just a single event called the GWT in Revelation 20.

Hmmmm, well I agree, but here you're talking about two different kinds of judgment. Sure, God can judge any one at any time, but they are temporal and not eternal, as the final Judgment ~ which results for many in their entering into the "second death" ~ will be.

They made a choice to be faithful to God....

Sure they did, but they did this because of the new spirit put into them by God. Out of this new spirit in them, which is a product of their having been born again of the Spirit of God and thereby saved through faith (the assurance of God and conviction by the Spirit), they freely do so. Yes.

...not that God forced a remnant to serve Him.

Right, agree. That's just a silly thing to say or even think. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly

 

[Davy]

This is not found in Scripture but man's erroneous theological opinion.

The dead are not resurrected prior to the thousand years, and you saying the Second Coming is both prior to and after the thousand years is you contradicting your point 3 with your points, 1 and 2.

Daniel 12 is not talking about the Second Coming, but the GWT Judgment a thousand years later.

Uh, oh... you just LIED against what Lord Jesus Himself said!

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

When is that resurrection to occur?

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will Which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV