Silly.Do you remember what you ate for lunch last day?LOL
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Silly.Do you remember what you ate for lunch last day?LOL
Lunacy is accepting Calvin's theology, and limited election. Election means your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, until it is blotted out, and God removes you from election. You don't just get election suddenly, one day in your life. You had election, and your name in the Lamb's book of life since before creation.This is just plain lunacy. Unsaved people with their names found in the book of life? Those who are part of the resurrection of damnation receiving eternal life? What in the world? Total nonsense. It's hard to imagine anything more nonsensical than what you said here.
Lunacy is accepting Calvin's theology, and limited election. Election means your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, until it is blotted out, and God removes you from election. You don't just get election suddenly, one day in your life. You had election, and your name in the Lamb's book of life since before creation.
Are you sure you understand what that means,
When one uses the words, "in their own order", that cannot mean "at the same time". There is literally nothing in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that implies, nor explicitly states that "their order" means "at the same time".Yes, he did. In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 Paul first said that all would be made alive (resurrected) and then he gave the order as Christ's resurrection first and then next in order are those who belong to Him at His coming. That's it. So, that implies that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at His second coming.
No, I don't deny that the resurrection described in Matthew 27:52-53 happened, but where does it say that it was unto bodily immortality? Nowhere. They died again later. Otherwise, Paul lied in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.
LOL. Who said that? Not me. I see that your reading comprehension skills are still terrible. The order of resurrections that Paul gave were BODILY resurrections.
In the case of 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, it's only talking about a bodily resurrection. You need to have no discernment whatsoever in order to not understand that.
Because He was bodily resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality just as those who belong to Him will be at the last trumpet when He comes again. This is very simple stuff and you can't even understand it. What can you understand then?
It shouldn't be. It's not plural in the original Greek. The Greek word can be singular or plural. The translators made a mistake there. The text in English says that Christ Himself is the firstfruits of them that slept. It should say He is the firstfruit of them that slept. But, you act as if it says them that slept are the firstfruits, but it does not say that.
I didn't say that he did. What would you say is the cause of your horrible reading comprehension skills? I'm genuinely curious as to what causes you to misunderstand almost everything you read.
The order given is Christ's resurrection was first and next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming.When one uses the words, "in their own order", that cannot mean "at the same time". There is literally nothing in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that implies, nor explicitly states that "their order" means "at the same time".
Which I don't. You are so lacking in reading comprehension skills that you can't even tell that I was speaking against that theology.Lunacy is accepting Calvin's theology, and limited election.
LOL. That's not my claim at all. Please learn how to read.Election means your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, until it is blotted out, and God removes you from election. You don't just get election suddenly, one day in your life. You had election, and your name in the Lamb's book of life since before creation.
Your claim is that a certain few during the last 6 millennia were only allowed redemption from the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. All else were predetermined to end up in the LOF.
It is you who is not making a distinction between a last 24 hour day, and the Day of the Lord, which is a thousand year time period. The Second Coming is not after the Day of the Lord, as you keep insisting.Don't tell me you're another one that can't read and understand simple English.
"last" = final
"day" = 24 hr. period, used for the final day of this present world, which is when Jesus comes to resurrect the dead saints and gather them and the alive saints (1 Thess.4).
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
"the" = article, this one
"day of the Lord Jesus" = used as a symbol for Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.
1 Cor 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV
Do you see the phrase "last day" in that above 1 Corinthians 5:5 verse anywhere? NO! You don't! Do you see the phrase "day of the Lord" in that? YES! You do. Did God's Old Testament prophets speak of events to occur on that "day of the Lord"? YES! they did! Did Apostle Paul and Peter speak of events only to occur on that "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night"? YES! they did! speaking of the very first START of that "day of the Lord" with Jesus' future return.
It is you who is not making a distinction between a last 24 hour day, and the Day of the Lord, which is a thousand year time period. The Second Coming is not after the Day of the Lord, as you keep insisting.
You should agree with the Amil and post mill adherents who say the last 24 hour day is after the Day of the Lord, some indefinite period of time including hundreds of years, or thousands.
The Second Coming is not a last final day.
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
This last day was the day Jesus died on the Cross.
No, the elect are those elect of God, chosen before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5).No, the elect are those who can be saved...
The elect are exempt from the "lake of fire" of Revelation 20 and will not be subject to that "second death."...not yet in the LOF...
Hmmm... hasn't happened yet, correct, but:. The second death has not happened yet, so all can be saved, up until that point.
I say God's elect are God's elect from all eternity.You claim some are automatically born the elect...
Sure I do. But God's purpose of election does not depend on man's choice; rather, as Paul says, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16), and "there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6)....you don't allow people to choose redemption.
Yes they do... <smile> Because they are elect from all eternity, and then, when they do, because they have been born again of the Spirit.People choose redemption, not because they are elect.
Absolutely not. God elect who He elects...God elects and chooses all mankind...
None of God's elect will. God's purposes cannot fail or be thwarted....but the majority will still end up in the LOF.
LOL! That doesn't even make sense, Timtofly. No, that's not how I define election. Goodness gracious. From all eternity.There is no such thing: that you are not chosen by God, and then suddenly, one moment you are. That is how you define election.
What you're really talking about here, Timtofly, whether you realize it or not, is not election, really but our being born again of the Spirit, which happens, yes, at some point in our existence, because we are members of God's elect, from all eternity and have been the recipients of His mercy, compassion, saving grace. In our being born again, yes, God places His Spirit in us, and because of this new spirit we have we then walk in His statutes and are careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27).One minute you are not elect, and the next minute you are, leaving God out of the choice. Or totally dependent on God placing His Spirit in us, at some point in our existence.
Nope. We are all born with a spirit that is dead in sin ~ the sinful nature. This is what we inherit from Adam. We are at enmity with God, which is the state of being Adam took on at the Fall, and continue in this unless and until we are born again of the Spirit of God... prior to that, all are dead in their trespasses and sins and walk in this way, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air... living in the passions of the flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3). This is the natural human condition.The Holy Spirit is placed in every soul, at conception...
In one sense, yes, from all eternity. But we do make our calling and election evident to all, even to ourselves, when we are not just hearers but doers of the Word, as James (1:22) puts it, and this is because God is at work in us in the Person of His Spirit (Philippians 2:13)....the election is sure at the moment of conception.
This is... actually correct. Wow. Great, man! <smile>When a person decides to align their mind with the Holy Spirit, and accept the gift of Salvation that is when they make the choice. God already made the choice prior to creation itself... The choice was made before Adam disobeyed God.
It seems VERY disingenuous as well as contradictory to say that Jesus's atonement was sufficient to cover all and that all can be saved when at the same time you believe that He did not die for all and purposely made it so that only certain people, and not all people, would be saved. That just makes no sense whatsoever and is nothing more than religious doublespeak.Hmmm... hasn't happened yet, correct, but:
- All can be saved in the sense that Jesus's atonement is sufficient to cover all, so unlimited in the sense of sufficiency, but...
- Effective for only God's elect, those whom He calls by His Spirit and gives new birth in the Spirit, so limited in that sense
Well, God elected who He elected. As Creator, he has every right to, as Paul says, to have mercy and compassion on whomever He wills, and also to harden whomever He wills, to make out some/many for honorable use and some/many for dishonorable use. I can certainly understand some thinking that abhorrent. But, God is God, and everything He does is for His own glory. It may be hard for us from our perspective to really get that, but, it is what it is.It seems VERY disingenuous as well as contradictory to say that Jesus's atonement was sufficient to cover all and that all can be saved when at the same time you believe that He did not die for all and purposely made it so that only certain people, and not all people, would be saved.
It just doesn't make the kind of sense we want it to, at least sometimes. But, as God says through the prophet Isaiah (55:8-11):That just makes no sense whatsoever...
I mean, never would you really do such a thing, I know, but really, that accusation is against God Himself. And that kind of thing doesn't end well for anybody if they hold on to it...and is nothing more than religious doublespeak.
....
.... up to the end of God's millennium, which we are advancing toward, and the close of which will prompt Satan's "loosing," then Christ's return and final defeat of Satan, then the second resurrection, then the final Judgment, then the sending away of the unrepentant into this "lake of fire," and finally the full ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth. At the close of the millennium, all of this will occur in short order.
....
You are still placing Jesus into a position of needing to be redeemed, ie made alive. Jesus is not part of the order. Spiritually dead people are the firstfruits in Christ, who are part of their own order.The order given is Christ's resurrection was first and next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming.
That His was the first resurrection is confirmed in other verses like this one...
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
The dead in Christ are all resurrected at the same time and Paul said that will occur at Christ's second coming. Very simple. But, I don't expect you to understand anything at all, including the simple things.
I'm well aware of your thinking on this, Davy. We disagree.That paragraph is not describing the proper order of events as written in God's Word.
Not the world, really but this present age age. These last days. It will come to an end when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in to Israel and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed.Christ's 2nd coming on the last day of this present world, and gathering of His saints.
No, the thousand years," God's millennium, will have come to a close at the time of Christ's (yes, future) second coming. The close of the millennium is what will prompt the final conflict and Jesus's second coming.Christ begins His "thousand years" reign on that day of His future 2nd coming.
Which is now. Since Christ's first coming. As Jesus said during His time on earth, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Jesus is that Someone, and Satan is that "strong man," and Jesus was then and still is, by the work of the Holy Spirit, plundering Satan's "house." Satan is currently restricted completely from deceiving the nations, which is to say he can do nothing to prevent the spread of the Gospel to all nations.Satan is locked into his pit prison for that period of a "thousand years", not allowed to deceive the unsaved nations.
Agree. Absolutely.The resurrection of both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" happen on that day of Christ's future 2nd coming. ALL... in the graves are raised on that day of His coming Jesus revealed in John 5:28-29.
No, the final Judgment, the white throne judgment of Revelation 20.All... then go through Christ's future "thousand years" literal reign...
In eternity, in the New Heaven and New Earth, which comes down to us and is ushered in fully after the final Judgment, after those resurrected to judgment have departed into this judgment., His faithful saints reign with Him...
They will be gone. There will be no more sin.All the unsaved nations will be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship Christ The KING, from year to year, and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
This will have happened already, after the close of the millennium and before the resurrection and final Judgment.Then Satan is loosed out of his pit prison chains...
Yes, but also Satan's "loosing" and after the final defeat of Satan... and the resurrection.When the "thousand years" is complete, God's Great White Throne Judgment then begins...
All are judged according to what they have done. But those in Christ will have done them to Him and in Him, and in this way will be judged righteous, not because of their own righteousness but because of His....the unsaved are judged by their works...
Right, and the names of the ones in Christ will be there... as they have been even from before the foundation of the world.....the Book of Life is viewed to see if any of their names are found in it.
Absolutely. You and I are converted, Davy, and our names are in that Book of Life.Those of the unsaved nations that convert to Jesus during the "thousand years" will have their names in that Book of Life, and be saved...
This will have already happened at the time of the final Judgment.Then Satan, the abode of the wicked called Hades, and death, are all cast into the "lake of fire".
After the final Judgment. Yes.And only then will God's Eternity of a new heavens and a new earth begin.
Of course you do, because you have all the redeemed as the dead waiting to stand before Christ at the GWT Judgment.Which I don't. You are so lacking in reading comprehension skills that you can't even tell that I was speaking against that theology.
LOL. That's not my claim at all. Please learn how to read.
No, it is not what it is. You think that is talking about what God chooses for someone before they are even born, but scripture does not teach that. We can't believe something that contradicts His character. God is love (1 John 4:8). He loves the whole world and sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). The idea that He predestined some to salvation and the rest to condemnation is not love. Not giving people even a chance at salvation is not love. Scripture says that He offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11), but your view makes that offer disingenuous for most.Well, God elected who He elected. As Creator, he has every right to, as Paul says, to have mercy and compassion on whomever He wills, and also to harden whomever He wills, to make out some/many for honorable use and some/many for dishonorable use. I can certainly understand some thinking that abhorrent. But, God is God, and everything He does is for His own glory. It may be hard for us from our perspective to really get that, but, it is what it is.
This is a cop out response. We are told a great deal about salvation and how it comes about in scripture. It is not some mystery that can't be explained and that only God knows.It just doesn't make the kind of sense we want it to, at least sometimes. But, as God says through the prophet Isaiah (55:8-11):
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
But, you do often.I mean, never would you really do such a thing,
LOL. No, it's an accusation against your understanding of God Himself.I know, but really, that accusation is against God Himself.
You are taking 1 Thessalonians 4:16 out of context. The dead in Christ rising first is not a reference to the first resurrection. It is a reference to the fact that after Jesus descends from heaven, the first thing that will happen is that the dead in Christ are resurrected. Then they, together with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.Where do you (anyone) disagree with this timeline of year end events in chapter 20?
Timeline
1. The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection (the righteous dead)
Key verses:
- The dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive in the faith will be caught up together with them.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds…”1 Corinthians 15:51-52“...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... at the last trump... the dead shall be raised incorruptible…”Revelation 20:4-6“...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection…”
Yes, I agree with this. With this in mind, there are no mortals who would survive and populate the earth for a thousand years. Which I think you agree with because I think your view is similar to Seventh-Day Adventists where you think the earth is desolate for a thousand years and Jesus reigns with His people in heaven during that time. But, then, where do the rebels on the earth who number "as the sand of the sea" in Revelation 20:7-9 come from?2.a. The Wicked Alive Are Destroyed by the Brightness of His Coming
Key verses:
- Those who rejected Christ and are still alive at His coming will be slain.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9“...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven... taking vengeance on them that know not God...”2 Thessalonians 2:8“...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming…”Revelation 19:21“And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse…”
2.b. The Beast and the False Prophet Are Thrown into the Lake of Fire
Key verse:
- The beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.
Revelation 19:20“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
Obviously, I'm not going to agree with your timing of all this since I don't see the thousand years as following Christ's return.3. Satan Is Bound and Cast into the Abyss for 1,000 Years
Key verses:
- Satan is temporarily imprisoned, unable to deceive the nations during the millennium.
Revelation 20:1-3“...And he laid hold on the dragon... and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit...”
4. The Millennium – The Saints Reign with Christ (7th day Sabbath)
Key verses:
- The righteous are with Christ; the earth lies desolate.
Revelation 20:4“...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”Jeremiah 4:23-26 (symbolic description of a desolate earth during the millennium)
5.a. Satan Is Loosed After the 1,000 Years
Key verses:
- Satan is released and gathers the wicked for one final rebellion.
Revelation 20:7-9“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed... to deceive the nations... they went up... and compassed the camp of the saints...”
5.b. Satan Is Destroyed in the Lake of Fire
Key verse:
- After his final rebellion, Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone...”
5.c. The Second Resurrection – The Wicked Dead Are Raised for Judgment
Key verse:
- All the unrighteous dead are resurrected to face final judgment.
Revelation 20:5“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...”
6. The Great White Throne Judgment
Key verses:
- The final judgment of the wicked before eternal destruction.
Revelation 20:11-15“And I saw a great white throne... and the dead were judged... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
7. A New Heaven and a New Earth
Key verses:
- After sin and death are destroyed, God creates a new, eternal home for the redeemed.
Revelation 21:1-4“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth... and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes...”