Scripture is not the last word.

[ScottA]

Thanks Scott.

John 17:20-23 has NOTHING to do with Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to guide all Christians into truth. If your theory were true then any teaching opposite of the Apostles by the disciples (students) of the Apostles would be true also. There can't be two truths sooooo your theory is not logical. Only the teachings of the Apostles are true since they, and only they, were guided by the Holy Spirit; just like scripture says. The Apostles then taught other men the Truth who were to teach other men the Truth (2 Timothy 2:2).....just like Scripture says.

Jesus prayer in John 17 says "I have given them your word" (vs 14) and after that he prays that we may all be one (vs 21). Christians can only all be one if we have one authority to discern the Truth. In John 16 ONLY the Apostles were given the Holy Spirit to discern the Truth and they did discern the Truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit at the Council of Jerusalem. They were the Church authority at the time and they used that authority and it was good to the Spirit.

The reason for the Council was because there were different teachings amongst the different Churches. Your theory about John 17 suggest that the Christians at those different Churches were guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth. They clearly weren't and neither are you or I or the Reformers. What you are suggesting is called relativism. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.....not each individual Christian...Just like Scripture says.

Bible study Mary

I gave you the scriptures that say that "all" are One is this matter. If you do not believe me or the scriptures coming from the apostle John...then our discussion is over.

Moreover, "logic" in this matter, is just your own logic...or perhaps that of the world. But since your logic goes against the words of John, you should not question me in my agreement with John, but rather question your own logic. In your logic, you cannot reconcile this gospel truth...but I can, and I have. but you disagree, because you lean on your own understanding, not even honestly taking your own apostolic beliefs to heart.

 

[Marymog]

I gave you the scriptures that say that "all" are One is this matter. If you do not believe me or the scriptures coming from the apostle John...then our discussion is over.

Moreover, "logic" in this matter, is just your own logic...or perhaps that of the world. But since your logic goes against the words of John, you should not question me in my agreement with John, but rather question your own logic. In your logic, you cannot reconcile this gospel truth...but I can, and I have. but you disagree, because you lean on your own understanding, not even honestly taking your own apostolic beliefs to heart.

Hi Scott,

Many of men have thought that the Holy Spirit has guided them into the Truth and they all had different truths. So who is confused Scott....Them or the Holy Spirit?

Your theory that all Christians are guided by the Spirit into the Truth is called relativism and it is dangerous....


Mary

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

Many of men have thought that the Holy Spirit has guided them into the Truth and they all had different truths. So who is confused Scott....Them or the Holy Spirit?

Your theory that all Christians are guided by the Spirit into the Truth is called relativism and it is dangerous....


Mary

I am not calling all men of different bents on the truth correct.

As for this point of yours and the differences coming out of the various men and churches...again, this is just your own logic at work. If God uses diversity to bring His body into perfection, does that make Him wrong and you correct? Are your thoughts higher than His? Are we not a body of many [different] members? Did He not also give different gifts? Indeed, your thoughts are not higher than His thoughts, and are not even in agreement with His use of diversity. On the contrary, I am in agreement with Him.

But that does not mean that all who claim to have the Holy Spirit have Him. The world has both good and evil at work. But that does not mean that God does not use diversity. On the contrary, it means that He has been all the more brilliant than men can imagine if limited to their own understanding and logic.

Nonetheless, the apostle John has said, not just the 12, but "all."

 

[tabletalk]

Thank you. Your post makes me see maybe my husband has already spoken and I haven’t listened. There is a church in walking distance from our home. It is an old-school Baptist all- the-way church. The congregation is so full Sunday mornings they are needing to build bigger. My husband says it is where he has felt discipled and fellowship with the men. I’m the one who doesn’t fit and maybe I haven’t tried to.

What does 'all-the-way' mean? If I looked up the right type of church, the teachings sound pretty good, except for the King James-only part. But, we all have our particulars, I guess.
Hang in there. Would you like me to pray about it?

 

[Marymog]

I am not calling all men of different bents on the truth correct.

As for this point of yours and the differences coming out of the various men and churches...again, this is your own logic at work. If God uses diversity to bring His body into perfection, does that make Him wrong and you correct? Are your thoughts higher than His? Are we not a body of many [different] members? Did He not also give different gifts? Indeed, your thoughts are not higher than His thoughts, and are not even in agreement with His use of diversity. On the contrary, I am in agreement with Him.

But that does not mean that all who claim to have the Holy Spirit have Him. The world has both good and evil at work. But that does not mean that God does not use diversity. On the contrary, it means that He has been all the more brilliant than men can imagine if limited to their own understanding and logic.

Nonetheless, the apostle John has said, not just the 12, but "all."

Soooo who decides which men who have claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit actually were guided by the Holy Spirit and which of those men were "evil" in their claim?

How do you decide which "men of different bents on the truth" to follow and believe?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Soooo who decides which men who have claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit actually were guided by the Holy Spirit and which of those men were "evil" in their claim?

How do you decide which "men of different bents on the truth" to follow and believe?

Mary

We do not decide, God does.

Do the scriptures say to follow men, or to follow Jesus. Follow Jesus. He will guide your steps. That is our walk...not one of having it all figured out, but of trusting in Him who's peace in such matters "surpasses all understanding", compared to that of men.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Regarding Jude 3, uh no. Its not talking about any 'correct timing'. It specifically says THE FAITH was once for all delivered. The faith was (past tense) delivered. What we have in our bibles is it. Any johnnie come lately doctrines are false and should be rejected. We in our brief lives will never mine all the gold buried within the bible. Why do we need new revelation when we can't unearth all the precious nuggets already in it?

Yes, the word once is a word that means, once for all time. It is used in ?Hebrews to speak of the finished work of the Cross.

 

[Marymog]

If God uses diversity to bring His body into perfection, does that make Him wrong and you correct? ."

You just defeated your own argument (theory) and you probably don't even realize it........Diversity does not equal all being one and perfection.

Churches that bless abortion clinics, perform gay marriages, allow multiple wives etc. is not "diversity"....It's called teaching the opposite of Scripture.

Goodness gracious....

Thank you for your time.....You have me soooo confused on what you are trying to say I can't go on.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Soooo who decides which men who have claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit actually were guided by the Holy Spirit and which of those men were "evil" in their claim?

How do you decide which "men of different bents on the truth" to follow and believe?

Mary

While the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, the promise of Jn.16 was given only to the Apostles.
That is why we can know we have the word of God.
Others claim they are like the Apostles or have the same promise. They do not.

1 John 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The US are the Apostles, not ScottA

 

[Marymog]

We do not decide, God does.

Do the scriptures say to follow men, or to follow Jesus. Follow Jesus. He will guide your steps. That is our walk...not one of having it all figured out, but of trusting in Him who's peace in such matters "surpasses all understanding", compared to that of men.

Stop it....You keep telling me and other on this forum we are wrong soooo apparently Scott A decides....not God.

If God does decide then don't ever tell me I am wrong again and just tell me you have a different opinion.....Mary

 

[ScottA]

Regarding Jude 3, uh no. Its not talking about any 'correct timing'. It specifically says THE FAITH was once for all delivered. The faith was (past tense) delivered. What we have in our bibles is it. Any johnnie come lately doctrines are false and should be rejected. We in our brief lives will never mine all the gold buried within the bible. Why do we need new revelation when we can't unearth all the precious nuggets already in it?

That is not what I was saying.

But, yes, the use of past tense language, does indicate the "correct timing" of events. Just as we "were" crucified and raised up with Christ, and Him slain before the foundation of the world...the moment we cross from the timing and the history of the world, to the correct and timeless occurrences in God, it is all past tense. This is the full meaning of what is meant by "It is written." Men of the world naturally think by their own understanding that the words simply mean "the scriptures"...because that is the extent of their knowledge. But these things were not written so, because of their knowledge, but rather of God's. In spite of it being written in this way, men tend to make it all fit their own understanding, and so error in understanding God.

As for what we have in our bibles being it. That is only true for those who put a lid on it, who hinder the Infinite. But don't get me wrong (again), I am not saying it is not all in the bible - because it is. It is just that, like those who all were in Adam and we who are all in Christ, are One...every written word is not fully expounded upon in ink or in the world, but rather in the spirit...which then is infinite, as God is infinite. So, unless you mean to say that God is not infinite -- do not continue saying that His word is limited to what the world reads. If you do...it is your own loss. He, nor those fully in Him, loose anything by you coming under the limited governance of the world and the very little that is seen in it by those who have no sight for all that is God.

 

[ScottA]

We do not decide, God does.

Do the scriptures say to follow men, or to follow Jesus. Follow Jesus. He will guide your steps. That is our walk...not one of having it all figured out, but of trusting in Him who's peace in such matters "surpasses all understanding", compared to that of men.

Stop it....You keep telling me and other on this forum we are wrong soooo apparently Scott A decides....not God.

If God does decide then don't ever tell me I am wrong again and just tell me you have a different opinion.....Mary

Well...sorry...but even though I did not say you were wrong in my above post that you were replying to -- now I have to tell you, you were wrong! I never said you were wrong in that post...which means being wrong...well, it's all on you.

See how you are.

 

[ScottA]

You just defeated your own argument (theory) and you probably don't even realize it........Diversity does not equal all being one and perfection.

Churches that bless abortion clinics, perform gay marriages, allow multiple wives etc. is not "diversity"....It's called teaching the opposite of Scripture.

Goodness gracious....

Thank you for your time.....You have me soooo confused on what you are trying to say I can't go on.

I said "diversity" is used by God, which is true-- but the better example, is "weakness." His strength is made perfect in weakness...against men's logic.

My explanation to you was me speaking plainly about the very complex nature of God, which, yes, goes against men's worldly logic. But because you are befuddled, should I stop being honest and speaking plainly, or would you prefer I lie to you, and tell you what you would like to hear according to your own logic.

Oh...I see, you have said "Stop it!"

Your move. Stop if you like.

 

[justbyfaith]

The interest needs to be in Scripture, it's context, glorifying God through what he reveals, and in the person of Christ. Not how one feels about a person, and how they reflect this in response to said person that is trying to convey the former values.

This is why several of us attempt to get MANY on here to use context and end their melding of verses together, out of context, in order to share their errant gospel and beliefs.

You are denying the biblical hermeneutic that the Holy Ghost by Paul sets forth in 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv).

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It is simply saying that it is not only the immediate context that determines our biblical perspective, but that topical context also matters.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What does 'all-the-way' mean? If I looked up the right type of church, the teachings sound pretty good, except for the King James-only part. But, we all have our particulars, I guess.
Hang in there. Would you like me to pray about it?

I’m sorry. I meant strict with no veering off. “Context” as a member here keeps recommending to me. No contemporary music. Hymns only. Genuinely nice and sincere people though.

Yes. Please pray.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You are denying the biblical hermeneutic that the Holy Ghost by Paul sets forth in 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv).

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

It is simply saying that it is not only the immediate context that determines our biblical perspective, but that topical context also matters.

Not one thing in that passage teaches a THING you've just said it teaches, but this is status quo for you, adding things to Scripture and denying what it really says. John 3:7.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Scott, just wanted to tell you I have enjoyed your thread. And I've been encouraged and gotten a lot out of it. Thank you. :)

 

[Episkopos]

Scott, just wanted to tell you I have enjoyed your thread. And I've been encouraged and gotten a lot out of it. Thank you. :)

After picking a lot of fat and gristle off that bone...

There is SOO much unbelief going on here.

 

[faithfulness]

After picking a lot of fat and gristle off that bone...

There is SOO much unbelief going on here.

oy vey?!!

 

[tzcho2]

Not one thing in that passage teaches a THING you've just said it teaches, but this is status quo for you, adding things to Scripture and denying what it really says. John 3:7.

No keeping it within the context of the whole text. The problem is with this type of usage of the scripture , they can take each phrase or scripture and isolate it apart from the context that it is written , as if it can be used like a magic incantation to say anything they want it to. This is how individuals have concocted the prosperity gospel & the healing gospel. The "name it and claim it gospel".