Schemes...

[ewq1938]

I just came here to say the same thing! What is eschatology?

Eschatology originates from a Greek word:

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.


last time is "eschatos chronos" or also interpreted as the "last days" or "end times".

eschatos became eschatology or "the theology or beliefs of the end times".

In Eschatology, things of the end would be discussed such as the second coming, judgment day, the eternal age etc rather than topics of water baptism, Genealogy of Christ, or was an apple of fruit of the forbidden tree.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which Eschatology is your favorite, and Why?

Interesting question…..since salvation has nothing to do with personal opinion or preference…beliefs are just that….what beliefs appeal to us, and the reasons why some hold to one set of beliefs whilst others sincerely hold to something completely different (whilst all claiming to believe the same Bible)…..really can’t compete for salvation. There is one truth and God provides enough information in his word to furnish one set of beliefs for all. (1 Cor 1:10)

So what went wrong?
What is the truth about what the Oxford English Dictionary defines as "the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind".

If we take them one at a time…

DEATH: What is “death” biblically speaking?

Is death the opposite of life….or is death a continuation of life, somewhere else, in another form?
What does the Bible say? (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10; Psalm 146:4; Matt 10:28)

Was man created and thereafter “given” a soul?…..or was man created and “became” a soul when God gave him ”the breath of life”? (Gen 2:7) What was a “soul” in Jewish understanding and how did the first Christians understand the condition of the dead, if they were all Jewish? Solomon said that at death all conscious activity ceases….and no dead person is capable of displaying emotion…even their “love” has “perished” with them.

The Bible does not teach that we have an “immortal soul”, because when the body dies, and the breath of life ceases, so does that person….for now.

What did the ancient Israelites understand as regards what came to be called in Christendom…the “Afterlife”? There is no life after death because death is the very opposite of life. The Bible does not say that the dead continue to live in a spiritual state once the earthly organism ceases to function….Adam was not told about any “afterlife”…just the opposite….
Gen 3:17-19…
”And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

There is no mention of “heaven or hell”…just “life or death” which depended solely on obedience to God’s command.
Israel were given the same option at Mt Sinai…to obey and live…or to disobey and die…..and it was restated after their dispersion into foreign lands…..if they obeyed their God, he would return them to their land.
God said to them…
”I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” (Deut 30:19-20)

For Jews, life after death was not immediate, but would involve a “resurrection”, which was a return or restoration of life, not a continuation of it somewhere else.

So having the Jewish view of the soul and death, rather than Christendom’s view, which was borrowed from the pagan Greeks, we have a whole different scenario concerning death and the next subject…
”judgment”….and “the final destiny of the “soul”.”

What gets judged? And what is the “soul“ that receives this judgment?
Jesus spoke about the resurrection and even demonstrated what they meant by restoring the dead to life.
The most famous account is that of Lazarus, and if we read the account, we see what state that Jesus said Lazarus was in.
John 11: 11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.:13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died.”

Jesus likened death to “sleeping”, and the resurrection that he was going to perform, as an ”awakening”.
When was this resurrection of the dead to take place? In the future…..he said in John 5:28-29..
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

So if the hour was “coming”, when Jesus walked the earth, what happened to all those who died before him?
No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

I like to look at the big picture….
Why are we here?
What life did God originally intend for us here on this carefully prepared planet?
Was death part of that life? If you read Genesis you will see why God put us here, and how long we were supposed to live on this earth. (Gen 3:22-24)

A rebel angel derailed God’s first purpose, and God proposed a way to buy back what Adam lost for all his children….he sent his son to pay a ransom for them that only a sinless human could.

Jesus said that he is “the way, the truth and the life”….”no one can come to the Father except through” him.
So we have to know who “the only true God” is and “the one he sent” if we want everlasting life. (John 17:3)

As for their “destiny”…?
Only “few” will be found on the road to life (Matt 7:13-14)…..so where does that leave the majority?

 

[Davy]

Which Eschatology is your favorite, and Why?

None, except just what God's Word says, as written.

We don't need a 'brand' of man's eschatology to understand God's written Word. What do need as Christians is understanding in God's Word from Him via The Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised those who believe on Him, and study to show themselves approved of God, a workman that need not be ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).

 

[ProDeo]

I don't know if my eschatology has a name but it's based my view that Matt 24 is about the destruction of the Israel as a theocracy in AD 70 called the great tribulation by Jesus and that the rapture happened in the period 66-70 (the last 3½ years of Daniel) during the siege of Jerusalem. And that it is not about us AD 2025. Scriptures -

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Meaning it already happened.

Rapture
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”

I am not sure what that means for us AD 2025 and how revelation fits into eschatology but a key might be a not yet fulfilled prophecy, for instance Zacharia 14 -

Zach 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Since Mount of Olives is not yet spit in two it is a future event. Secondly Jesus ascended to heaven from Mount of Olives and will return on Mount of Olives. 1948 might fit into this.

 

[Hey You!]

There's a part of me that wants to learn Eschatology, and Understand it at a Fundamental level. I'm an Fundamentalist, who knows the Basics of the main Endtime Schemes; but how do you decide which is best?

One of my issues is that I know the different Schemes wouldn't exist without their good points being Biblical. Sometimes I wonder if it's time for a new End Times Scheme to become Popular...

 

[Douggg]

I don't know if my eschatology has a name but it's based my view that Matt 24 is about the destruction of the Israel as a theocracy in AD 70 called the great tribulation by Jesus and that the rapture happened in the period 66-70 (the last 3½ years of Daniel) during the siege of Jerusalem. And that it is not about us AD 2025. Scriptures -

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Matt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Meaning it already happened.

Rapture
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”

I am not sure what that means for us AD 2025 and how revelation fits into eschatology but a key might be a not yet fulfilled prophecy, for instance Zacharia 14 -

Zach 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Since Mount of Olives is not yet spit in two it is a future event. Secondly Jesus ascended to heaven from Mount of Olives and will return on Mount of Olives. 1948 might fit into this.

You eschatology view is that of a partial preterist.

 

[Douggg]

There's a part of me that wants to learn Eschatology, and Understand it at a Fundamental level. I'm an Fundamentalist, who knows the Basics of the main Endtime Schemes; but how do you decide which is best?

One of my issues is that I know the different Schemes wouldn't exist without their good points being Biblical. Sometimes I wonder if it's time for a new End Times Scheme to become Popular...

I would suggest that you work on making a timeline chart of end time events. One of the events will be Jesus's return. So work a timeline chart of end time events that lead up to Jesus's return.

Since you want to learn Eschatology, everyone starts some where. You could simply take a pencil and sheet of note book paper to start.

I make my timeline charts on my computer using Corel Paintshop Pro, so that I can post my charts in threads to share with others.

As a tool for you delving into eschatology, use the information of this table I made which has the bible passages - which you can go read each of those and get familiar with those.

 

[Douggg]

None, except just what God's Word says, as written.

We don't need a 'brand' of man's eschatology to understand God's written Word. What do need as Christians is understanding in God's Word from Him via The Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised those who believe on Him, and study to show themselves approved of God, a workman that need not be ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).

From what I have read of your posts - I think your eschatology view is that of a futurist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which Eschatology is your favorite, and Why?

Amillennialism. Because it lines up with what is taught in scripture and is the only view that interprets Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

 

[Hey You!]

Amillennialism. Because it lines up with what is taught in scripture and is the only view that interprets Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture.

I tend to always revert to that as my Default Eschatology...

But I don't just want a Default Eschatology...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you for that.

A reference to "the end times" is rather vague. Scripture sometimes refers to "the last days" or "the last time". In Acts 2:16-21, Peter references a prophecy related to the last days and indicated that what was happening on the day of Pentecost was the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy. So, the last days had already started at that point. In 2 Peter 3:3-4, Peter talks about how scoffers in the last days would scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming up until He actually comes. So, "the last days" continue up until the future second coming of Christ. So, basically, "the last days" cover the time period between the first and second coming of Christ. Some people try to act as if the last days or end times only cover a short period of time before Christ returns, but that is not how it is defined in scripture itself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I tend to always revert to that as my Default Eschatology...

But I don't just want a Default Eschatology...

What do you mean by this exactly?

 

[Hey You!]

What do you mean by this exactly?

I feel I need more than Ammillenialism. FOMO?

Each Eschatology Scheme has some good points...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I feel I need more than Ammillenialism. FOMO?

I still don't know what you mean. Can you try to explain what you are looking for in eschatology?

 

[Hey You!]

I still don't know what you mean. Can you try to explain what you are looking for in eschatology?

I suppose I am trying to Configure the good points from each Eschatological Scheme...

 

[grafted branch]

There's a part of me that wants to learn Eschatology, and Understand it at a Fundamental level. I'm an Fundamentalist, who knows the Basics of the main Endtime Schemes; but how do you decide which is best?

One of my issues is that I know the different Schemes wouldn't exist without their good points being Biblical. Sometimes I wonder if it's time for a new End Times Scheme to become Popular...

Here’s the thing, in my opinion, there is no eschatological view that doesn’t have problems. When we find something like three or four verses that seem to point in one direction while another verse points a different way, we tend to come up with rational reasons as to why that might be (I’m including myself).

On a forum such as this one, if a person’s view can’t give rational reasoning or I suppose in your case if they deviate too far from fundamentalism, then it starts to become apparent they are promoting their view more than they are adhering to sound hermeneutics.

For example, in Revelation 22:18 we have this statement “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”. Now, if I promote a view that has the plagues as literal plagues then a reasonable answer needs to be given as to how someone who added to the book in the past (like Joseph Smith) experiences those plagues. I can tell you that some people will give very unorthodox answers when asked a question like this.

Personally I tend to eliminate certain views without necessarily coming to a firm conclusion on the issue being discussed. I would say there is no scheme that is best, obviously there is one true correct interpretation but I think it was written in such a way as to make us constantly double check and reread the scriptures over and over to verify that we are not violating biblical principles in order to promote a view that we might cherish more than the truth.

 

[Keraz]

2 Peter 1:19-21 ...you will do well to attend to the messages of the prophets, their words shine like a lamp in a dark place. But first note this; no prophesy is a matter for private interpretation. The prophets spoke by the Holy Spirit, as messengers of God.

We must not guess or make up our own interpretation. We should study and let the Bible interpret itself. Others should be able to compare Scriptures for proof and verification.
With the world situation as it is now, we can see how some prophecy may be fulfilled.

The Apostle Paul says that due to a believer’s knowledge of prophecy, they are not in darkness regarding things to come. This accounts for the inability of the multitudes to understand what is written, for they do not belong to the group which Paul calls the children of Light. Without faith, an unbeliever is unable to comprehend its meaning.
1 Corinthians 14:22b….prophecy is given for not for unbelievers, but for believers.

Because the Church and its leaders generally ignore the prophetic word, they are blind to the meaning of the signs of the times. This is one reason so many have turned away from the acceptance of the Word of God and multitudes are today without belief. Even true and faithful believers in God, generally have no real idea of future events. They simply trust God to save them, which is all very well, but shows a careless attitude and treats a large portion of God’s word as superfluous.

God’s purpose in allowing uncertainty as to the full meaning and understanding of prophecy, before its fulfilment, is because all people- despite scepticism and unbelief, would be compelled to accept the evidence of a Creator God.
The doubters are looking for a sign- no sign will be given them, but those who walk by faith will finally see and recognise prophecy coming to pass as predicted.

Earnest and sincere discussion of the prophetic word should bring spiritual stimulation and strengthen our faith. We need to know what the prophets have said, so that we can be in a position to use that information intelligently and not be surprised at what will happen.

Prophecy has not been given to men to make them prophets, but for the purpose of confirming God’s word and thus enable everyone who walks by faith, to know the truth.

Daniel 12:9-10 ....these words are to be kept secret and sealed until the time of the end.
....but the wicked will continue in wickedness and none of them will understand; only the wise leaders will understand.

Commentaries say: The wicked are the rebellious. The wise are the teachers or leaders. And those who do teach and lead, must be really sure they are right, because they face a more severe judgement. James 3:1

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Peter 1:19-21 ...you will do well to attend to the messages of the prophets, their words shine like a lamp in a dark place. But first note this; no prophesy is a matter for private interpretation. The prophets spoke by the Holy Spirit, as messengers of God.

We must not guess or make up our own interpretation. We should study and let the Bible interpret itself. Others should be able to compare Scriptures for proof and verification.
With the world situation as it is now, we can see how some prophecy may be fulfilled.

You are misinterpreting that passage, as many others do as well. It's not talking about Bible readers like you and me and others having their own private interpretations of the prophecies that they are reading. It's talking about the prophets themselves not having their own private interpretations of the future apart from what the Holy Spirit was telling them. Which means that the prophecies were from God Himself and not from the prophets' imaginations (private interpretations).

2 Peter 1:19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Verse 21 has the explanation of what Peter said in verse 20 and it has nothing to do with people's interpretations of the prophecies, but rather with the fact that the prophets were given prophecies directly by God by way of the Holy Spirit and did not originate with their own minds (their own private interpretations of the future apart from what was revealed by God).

 

[MA2444]

I just came here to say the same thing! What is eschatology?

These are always lively threads, with much cotentious debate. Basically it can be said that eshcatology is how one interprets the bible. There are two camps, some read it literally (PreMil) and figuratively (Amil).

Watch and see if what I say is not true, lol!

 

[MA2444]

There's a part of me that wants to learn Eschatology, and Understand it at a Fundamental level. I'm an Fundamentalist, who knows the Basics of the main Endtime Schemes; but how do you decide which is best?

One of my issues is that I know the different Schemes wouldn't exist without their good points being Biblical. Sometimes I wonder if it's time for a new End Times Scheme to become Popular...