Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments

[L.A.M.B.]

Exactly! So God moves the target, because we are learning and GROWING in righteousness. We finally saw the target and hit it. Then He moves the target and shows us where it is and says, now hit that target.
we are GROWING in righteousness. We are LEARNING righteousness. We begin to DO righteousness by His training.

The second man praying could have never seen the target unless God showed him the target. But God did. He finally saw and understood the parable and then he hit the target. Does God leave him there? No. That’s not how learning more and having the mind renewed works. We learn addition and subtraction. Then we use that addition to learn multiplication. Then we use all those to learn division. And so forth.
If a teacher never moved the target, if there was no line upon line and precept upon precept, no learning beyond addition would occur.

Again God does NOT move the target, our focus on him is not constant.
Paul stated he runs the race to win. Pressing in TOWARD the mark NOT THAT HE HAS TO CHASE THE MARK!

Our growth pattern changes as we grow. It is milestones in our journey we accomplish in pleasing God by serving in his will.

 

[marks]

Sometimes these wooden, mechanical views of salvation make me want to roll my eyes.

We're told we can come to Jesus in trust, and that will set us right with God. That's what the word "justification" means.

In trust, we identify with Jesus, and He identifies with us. And Jesus's identification with the poor and the sick and the imprisoned and the lost and the lonely of humanity may extend beyond us; that's up to Him. If Jesus wants to reward someone who showed kindness to Him, that's also His call, not yours, not mine. You wanna be the one to tell Him, "Lord, You can't DO that!"?

In other words, God is sovereign over salvation. He saves whom He wants to save. All these arguments boil down to guessing who He's gonna save and who He's not, tinged with the unspoken anxiety about whether He's going to save Me. And maybe the perverse desire to make The Other Guy feel just as anxious.

But if this what Jesus does, and if we identify with Jesus as He identifies with us, we should want to go and do likewise.

Very insightful!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Confessing to God with a humble heart ... essentially just "throwing yourself on God's mercy" as your only hope ... is itself the ultimate act of FAITH.

Hebrews 11:6 [NASB20] And without faith it is impossible to please [Him,] for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.​

Luke 7:43-50 [NASB20] ​

Simon answered and said, "I assume the one for whom he canceled the greater debt." And He said to him, "You have judged correctly." And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave Me no kiss; but she has not stopped kissing My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but the one who is forgiven little, loves little." And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." And then those who were reclining at the table with Him began saying to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."​

Faith saved her (Jesus said so).
Her love, according to the parable told earlier, was the fruit of her debt having been canceled.
Once again, we see someone approach Jesus in UTTER HUMILITY (probably a friend of the Tax Collector) ;)

Luke 23:36-43 [NASB20]​

The soldiers also ridiculed Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."​

There is no innate merit in suffering for your own guilt.
However, when Christ was surrounded by the cries of mockers, one man dared to "stand" beside Him and speak the truth.
With literally nothing to offer but the testimony of his FAITH in Christ's MERCY ... the thief received it! (probably another friend of the Tax Collector) ;)



Respectfully, I see ALL salvation is humbly coming to Jesus in FAITH. Repentance and obeying commandments are the LOVE that flows from having been FORGIVEN MUCH ... maybe we are all "friends of that Tax Collector!" :)

And there is no merit in our believing, as we are only accepting what is true.

Much love!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Hmm…okay. I got the impression she was rather warning devin about a person in HERE, but maybe you’re right.

I am sorry I have to speak in specifics as to children.
 ANY denomination or teacher, preacher ect that's teachings make one feel good about themselves and DOES NOT make you want to climb higher is against God.

That can be done by tv, internet, books, studies, commentaries, colleges, church & denom hoping. This causes confusion & chaos.

We are to be steadfast in our faith of God not of selves.
The Word of God specifically states where we go wrong, how to get back to rightness, and how to hold onto all we receive from God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes that has always been my stance and I have accepted it. That Jesus is Lord and judge of salvation. He will decide who is saved and who is damned.

Oh but I feel you are wrong. Surely it must be the doctrines of men built into a systematic theology tower who decide that. Right…? I mean, surely they’ve not missed anything!

 

[marks]

I disagree with your analogy.
God DOES NOT CHANGE, NEITHER THE THINGS HE REQUIRES!

The target moves bc our focus moves. We cannot hit something we cannot see.

Only in continuing to look upon God and his word can we stay on target by the leading of his Spirit !

I agree, the "target" is the full stature of Christ.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am sorry I have to speak in specifics as to children.
 ANY denomination or teacher, preacher ect that's teachings make one feel good about themselves and DOES NOT make you want to climb higher is against God.

That can be done by tv, internet, books, studies, commentaries, colleges, church & denom hoping. This causes confusion & chaos.

We are to be steadfast in our faith of God not of selves.
The Word of God specifically states where we go wrong, how to get back to rightness, and how to hold onto all we receive from God.

Oh. I see. You weren’t telling him to be careful of anyone in here, per se.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Devin and Lambano, you guys make a good team. Yeah, one has to sift out some posts to see the good work you’ve done but…very good stuff.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Oh. I see. You weren’t telling him to be careful of anyone in here, per se.

I know the ones here in the forums who I think ONLY have a form of godliness but are far off the target.

They are the ones that state they are from " Christian " denominations or churches and they deny God in His fullness, they twist the Word to justify themselves, they pat each other on the back and are eating, drinking & making merry, NOT REALIZING THAT TOMOROW THEY MAY DIE, THEN THE JUDGMENT.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

IF we take EVERYTHING IN then bloat comes followed by vomit.....wallowers return again and again !

 

[CadyandZoe]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Third is Luke 19:1-10 which is another example of Jesus bringing salvation to someone called a sinner. Christ Abides With Zacchaeus from @WalterandDebbie's bible study.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

Suppose a man was pulled out to sea by the tide so far that without help he would drown. He calls out, "What must I do to be saved." People on shore shout back, "don't do anything. Stay right there. We are coming to you." The rescue team takes a boat out to pick him up.

From a certain perspective, that is how salvation works. We don't save ourselves. We are being saved by God. His work inside the inner man or woman is what ties all three of your examples together. God was not saving the Pharisee; he was saving the Tax collector. His confession isn't what saved him; his confession is simply evidence that he is being saved. The same thing with the woman. God isn't saving her because she cried tears of repentance; she cried tears of repentance because God was saving her. Zacchaeus' response to Jesus is not the basis of his salvation; his response is evidence that God is saving him.

The following is a misunderstood passage. I mention it because it makes the point.

Hebrews 11:1-2

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.​

Many people take this as Paul's definition of faith, which is assurance and conviction etc. But I think Paul was saying something completely different. Paul isn't defining faith, he is talking about the assurance of faith. Romans 10:22. Here in this context Paul is attempting to prove that God justifies people of faith. He gives his readers quite a long list of people whom God declared "justified" in view of their faith.

Now, as it happens, God's justification is not obvious. We tell each other that God justifies the sinner who repents and confesses faith in Jesus Christ, which is true. But, it isn't obviously true. I mean, unless God sends a prophet or an angel to tell us personally that he has justified us in particular, we have no empirical evidence that God has granted us justification. We know God justifies us, but we take that as granted as a tenet of our faith. The state of being justified is a hidden reality. In Paul's words, justification is one of those "things not seen."

Paul argues that the presence of faith in a person's life is the evidence of the unseen justification. Anyone who is a person of faith can rest his or her hope on that fact. Paul gives examples from scripture proving that justification is universally associated with faith, and so it stands to reason that the presence of belief is a sure indicator of justification.

I remember the beginning days of my walk as a believer. I was always asking "what must I do to be saved?" It took me many years to discover that if God wasn't already saving me, I wouldn't be a man of faith today.

 

[marks]

Paul argues that the presence of faith in a person's life is the evidence of the unseen justification. Anyone who is a person of faith can rest his or her hope on that fact. Paul gives examples from scripture proving that justification is universally associated with faith, and so it stands to reason that the presence of belief is a sure indicator of justification.

I remember the beginning days of my walk as a believer. I was always asking "what must I do to be saved?" It took me many years to discover that if God wasn't already saving me, I wouldn't be a man of faith today.

Exactly!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God was not saving the Pharisee; he was saving the Tax collector

Are you sure…? To hear and finally see the parable has maybe saved a lot of Pharisees/hypocrites like me.

 

[Illuminator]

No, it's not correct. If we go back and look at the context in Matt 19 and Mark 10, nowhere does it say the rich young man lied to Christ or that Christ accused him of lying or condemned him for blatantly lying to Christ's face nor was he accused of "self-righteous" works.

The man asked Christ "what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Christ did NOT tell him to do nothing but have faith only but said "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother."

Jesus was telling him to keep God's commands to which the man replied "Master, all these have I observed from my youth."

AGAIN, Jesus did not reply by calling him a lair or condemning him for lying, but upon hearing that the man kept the commands the context says Jesus "loved him". Jesus loved him because he kept God's commands thereby making this young man an example of one of high morals and integrity. Jesus would not have loved him for lying.

Jesus then says "One thing thou lackest". The logical implication of this is that keeping God's commands is part of inheriting eternal life. Therefore had he not been keeping God's commands, that is, had he been disobeying God's commands he would have been lacking in more areas than just one.

Keeping the commandments is good, that will lead to eternal life.
Giving up everything for the sake of the kingdom is better. Not many of us are chosen for this degree of servitude, and it is NOT a command.
It's both/and, good/better not either/or.
Either/or is false dichotomous thinking.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Are you sure…? To hear and finally see the parable has maybe saved a lot of Pharisees/hypocrites like me.

I do not see you in the role you've asserted.
I see you as a seeker, mind you I'm not excusing your way of twisting up someone, its just your way of drawing out sometimes.

You ask honest open questions most of the time have profound revelations you freely express and share.
I wonder about your upbringing, you may have said it, but I missed it.

I think when it's all in focus for you that you might even be a spit-fire for the Lord.

 

[Behold]

and so it stands to reason that the presence of belief is a sure indicator of justification.

What you are describing, does not take into account that a believer can have a faith crisis, and their faith is broken.
Or they can "fall from Grace", and literally stop believing that Jesus keeps them saved, and thereby they become a SELF Saver, who is now trying to stay saved, or even "get saved again".

So, there are millions of believers , born again, with NO Assurance of Salvation.
ZERO.

Just ask them on this forum, if the believe they can "lose their salvation", and you have found a believer who no longer believes in anything except their works, and trying to be "be like Christ".
They will talk about keeping commandments as a REQUIREMENT, to go to heaven.
Or water baptism.
Or, "enduring to the end".
They will tell you exactly what is on their LIST that they BELIEVE they have to DO, if they want to go to heaven, OR< stay out of hell., which is really the same broken faith, belief system.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

mind you I'm not excusing your way of twisting up someone

At least you’ve stopped trying to say something without saying it aloud. That’s an improvement.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do not see you in the role you've asserted.

I don’t understand what this means. It would maybe help if you explain to me what “asserting a role” means?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

At least you’ve stopped trying to say something without saying it aloud. That’s an improvement.

I hate hurting ppls feelings even anonymously.
I get that ppl don't always take what I say as I mean it.

It means you are not a Pharisee not a hypocrite in my view. I'm sorry if the way I communicate is hard for you to understand what I say....forgive me.

I don’t understand what this means. It would maybe help if you explain to me what “asserting a role” means?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I hate hurting ppls feelings even anonymously.
I get that ppl don't always take what I say as I mean it.

You didn’t hurt my feelings. I just wanted you to openly and honestly say what you were dancing around.

It means you are not a Pharisee not a hypocrite in my view. I'm sorry if the way I communicate is hard for you to understand what I say....forgive me.

Well, you didn’t meet me before. And youre seeing me almost 17 years later. And you’re not seeing me at one of my worst moments.