Satan was right? Egads!

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PinSeeker

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How does John 1:1 show the Logos to be eternal.
Well, He was there in the beginning, meaning, obviously, that He was there before the beginning, and there is no specification regarding how long before Creation He was there, and the silence concerning that can be readily understood that He had no beginning.

God has no beginning.
Agree.

The beginning that John refers to is the beginning at Genesis 1:1, the beginning of the heavens and the earth.
Agree.

The Logos was not God there, he was “with” God.
Not the Father; the last part of John 1:1, says the Logos was God.

God created all things through him. He didn’t create on his own.
Right; all three Persons of the Godhead were present.

As to the different uses of the indefinite article in John, there are different forms of the Greek word for God. Theos, Theon, Theou. Check out John 1:6, 1:12, 1:13 and 1:18 in the interlinear at Biblehub.com and you will see that all four do not say Theos like John 1:1. I’m not a Greek scholar, but the grammar varies for them regarding the use of articles.
The distinction is one of sentence structure only.

Tigger 2 could help you with this.
I know him very well (and his website). No, thanks. :)

The issue in Colossians 1:15 as regards eternity is not what rank Jesus had, his preeminence. The translation you use says he is “over” creation. Many translations read he was “of” creation such as American Standard, Amplified, Douay, English Standard, Jerusalem, King James, New American Standard, Revised Standard to mention a few.
There is no difference in the context here.

If Jesus is “of creation” trinitarians have a problem.
As Paul says there, "by (Christ) all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ~ all things were created through Him and for Him... He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." The necessary understanding in this is that Christ is not included in those all things, else Paul is mistaken and should have said "all things minus Himself," or "all other things," or some like exception. There is no exception; the necessary conclusion is that He Himself had no beginning, and thus existed with the Father from all eternity, and, like the Father, is eternal.

Interestingly, protokokos is used again 3 verses later at Colossians 1:18 and reads he is “firstborn from the dead.” I can’t find any Bible that reads “over” the dead.
This is Paul's assertion that, as he said in Philippians 2, Christ took the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and was then found in human form (while also being in the form of God). So here in Colossians 1, it is very much the same; Paul speaks of Christ being both God (Colossians 1:15-17) and man (Colossians 1:18-20).

The chief purpose of John’s Gospel is stated by John at 20:17: “But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.”
Right, but you misunderstand what it means that Christ is the Son of God. He's also the Son of Man, referring to Himself as such many times over, and this is very much parallel to John 1, Philippians 2, and Colossians 1 (and other like passages). He is both of God and of man.

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Now, I know you were talking to Rich here, but:
I can’t agree with you that those who fail to sanctify God’s name (are my spiritual brothers)
If by "sanctify God's name" you mean "don't set it above every name," then I agree with you.

...who support its replacement in His own Word (are my spiritual brothers)
No one here does that; it is only a false supposition...

those who accept and promote elevating Jesus to a trinity (are my spiritual brothers)
Jesus needs no "elevation"...

...those who believe that Jehovah eternally tortures in fires of hell (are my spiritual brothers)
He doesn't, but hell is a real place; Jesus was not lying or mistaken...

I try to kindly help them but they need to get out of Babylon the Great or they will receive part of her plagues when Jesus comes.
Well, that's admirable, I guess, but sometimes, David, the "help" is the problem. :)

Grace and peace to you.
 

Rich R

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We agree on many things. I completely agree making Jesus God minimizes what they both did. I can’t agree with you that those who fail to sanctify God’s name, who support its replacement in His own Word, those who accept and promote elevating Jesus to a trinity, those who believe that Jehovah eternally tortures in fires of hell are my spiritual brothers. I try to kindly help them but they need to get out of Babylon the Great or they will receive part of her plagues when Jesus comes.
I agree with you on all those points. But unless God gives you revelation, how do you know if someone is born again of incorruptible seed or not? Seed is seed. An offspring can not change from being the same nature as their parent. A son may behave badly and be a huge disappointment to their father, but they can't stop being their father's son. And that's how corruptible seed is. Incorruptible seed is much more secure than that.

There are many places in the New Testament that tell us how one gets born again. None of them mention any of the doctrinal points you brought up. In general, wouldn't it be more appropriate to let Jesus do the judging?
 
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PinSeeker

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I agree with you on all those points. But unless God gives you revelation, how do you know if someone is born again of incorruptible seed or not? Seed is seed. An offspring can not change from being the same nature as their parent. A son may behave badly and be a huge disappointment to their father, but they can't stop being their father's son. And that's how corruptible seed is. Incorruptible seed is much more secure than that.

There are many places in the New Testament that tell us how one gets born again. None of them mention any of the doctrinal points you brought up. In general, wouldn't it be more appropriate to let Jesus do the judging?
Only God sees and knows the heart, right Rich? :)

Grace and peace to you! And to David too, of course. :)
 
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Rich R

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Only God sees and knows the heart, right Rich? :)

Grace and peace to you! And to David too, of course. :)
Exactly! He even took into account the heart of King David, a guy who had some wife's husband killed so he could have her all to himself. With that in mind, pronouncing God's name incorrectly doesn't seem all that bad.
 

PinSeeker

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...pronouncing God's name incorrectly doesn't seem all that bad.
I'm not sure who you think is doing that, but agreed. But not knowing Who He really is... that's surely not good. :)

Grace and peace to you.
 

Rich R

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I'm not sure who you think is doing that, but agreed. But not knowing Who He really is... that's surely not good. :)

Grace and peace to you.
I'm afraid DavidB said something to that effect. Of course, as you say, knowing who God really is is a good thing, but He's not the kind of god that would punish someone for simply doing or believing what they've been taught. Sincerity is certainly a good thing, but it doesn't guarantee accuracy.
 

PinSeeker

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I'm afraid DavidB said something to that effect. Of course, as you say, knowing who God really is is a good thing, but He's not the kind of god that would punish someone for simply doing or believing what they've been taught. Sincerity is certainly a good thing, but it doesn't guarantee accuracy.
If they're not a member of His elect, they're... not a member of His elect. I'm not really referring to God's law, here, but only making a point: as they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse... :)

Grace and peace to you.
 

Keiw

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You get nowhere by using one quote from Jesus against another.

Jesus, summarizing his own Word said what I said...but you make it an argument.


No argument whatsoever to Gods truth--Matt 7:21--Those living now to do Jesus Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom--1000,s of pages of that will inspired for all by God through his bible writers.
 

Rich R

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No argument whatsoever to Gods truth--Matt 7:21--Those living now to do Jesus Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom--1000,s of pages of that will inspired for all by God through his bible writers.
Matt 7:21,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
That was quite true when Jesus uttered those words to the Jews (Matt 10:6 & Matt 15:24), but don't you see how things changed with his death and resurrection, specifically, on the day of Pentecost? If not, then what was the purpose in him being crucified?

Now we do Romans 10:9-10 to be saved. We're saved by grace, not by works.
 

DavidB

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Exactly! He even took into account the heart of King David, a guy who had some wife's husband killed so he could have her all to himself. With that in mind, pronouncing God's name incorrectly doesn't seem all that bad.

Thanks for your comments. A couple points:

A) King David was repentant. He both deeply regretted his sin and stopped doing it. God is very willing to do the same for those who decide to live in harmony with what Jesus taught us to pray for: “Hallowed (make holy, sanctify) be thy name.”

B) The concern is not the pronunciation. It is pronounced in many different ways in various languages. The concern is the removal of the Tetragrammaton and the replacement of it with Adonai or Kyrios. If they didn’t want to pronounce it, they at least could have left the Tetragrammaton in when they translated. Do you think God approves of over 6,800 verses being altered? Why is it that Molech, Baal, Ashtoreth, Dagon, Marduk and other false gods get their names left in and the author gets his removed. Who would be pleased by this? Who would like nothing better than to keep people from knowing God? Perhaps the same enemy who has made the Son more prominent than the Father?

This is how I see the issue. A name is more than a title. It involves our reputation. God’s name was slandered by Satan when he tempted Eve. That’s why Jesus has it at the top of his Model Prayer.
 
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PinSeeker

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The concern is the removal of the Tetragrammaton and the replacement of it with Adonai or Kyrios.
I agree with pretty much your entire post, David, but picked the above out, because it is the crux of the matter, pretty much. Yes, so, that would be an issue if it were actually the case and not something wrongly foisted by non-trinitarians upon trinitarians.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Rich R

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Thanks for your comments. A couple points:

A) King David was repentant. He both deeply regretted his sin and stopped doing it. God is very willing to do the same for those who decide to live in harmony with what Jesus taught us to pray for: “Hallowed (make holy, sanctify) be thy name.”

B) The concern is not the pronunciation. It is pronounced in many different ways in various languages. The concern is the removal of the Tetragrammaton and the replacement of it with Adonai or Kyrios. If they didn’t want to pronounce it, they at least could have left the Tetragrammaton in when they translated. Do you think God approves of over 6,800 verses being altered? Why is it that Molech, Baal, Ashtoreth, Dagon, Marduk and other false gods get their names left in and the author gets his removed. Who would be pleased by this? Who would like nothing better than to keep people from knowing God? Perhaps the same enemy who has made the Son more prominent than the Father?

This is how I see the issue. A name is more than a title. It involves our reputation. God’s name was slandered by Satan when he tempted Eve. That’s why Jesus has it at the top of his Model Prayer.
I recently did a teaching on YHWH and why it is so important. Here, I believe, is the crux of the matter:

Grammatically YHWH could be translated as either "I am" or "I will be." Considering the context in which He told Moses His name, I believe that latter makes more sense. God wanted to assure Israel that He would do whatever it took to get Israel out of Egypt and into Canaan.

Changing it into LORD has a rather damaging effect on the way we view our Father.

"LORD" in Septuagint is "kurios"
G2962 κύριος kurios (kï '-riy-os) n.
1. lord, supreme in authority, the one in control.
2. (also, by implication) sir or master (as a title showing respect for others).

YHWH is certainly supreme in authority, etc, but that is not what God wanted us to think over and over some 6,800 times. Instead He wanted to use His name YHWH in order to remind us those 6,800 times that He is our sufficiency and will do whatever He has to to protect and keep us.

Language matters. Words cause images to form in our brains. Like I said, God was more interested in assuring us 6,800 times that He would take care of us no matter what may arise. That is certainly a more comforting idea than to remind us of than to tell us 6,800 times that He is in charge. Instead of seeing Him on a raised platform demanding I bow to Him as a Lord, I see Him as a most loving God who will do whatever it takes to protect me as I walk through the shadow of death. I can only love Him that much more. God is about giving not taking. He could just boss us around at His will if He wanted. That would make Him just like all the other Ancient Near East Gods. But He didn't. Instead He shows us how much He cares for us by assuring us He'd be there for us. How could you not love a God like that? :)
 

Keiw

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Matt 7:21,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
That was quite true when Jesus uttered those words to the Jews (Matt 10:6 & Matt 15:24), but don't you see how things changed with his death and resurrection, specifically, on the day of Pentecost? If not, then what was the purpose in him being crucified?

Now we do Romans 10:9-10 to be saved. We're saved by grace, not by works.


I told you-all sin so it is grace, because God accepts 0 sin. You are in error about Matt 7:21--because in 22-23 its those who think they are christian Jesus is telling. The Israelite religion does 0 in Jesus name, only those called Christian do.
The purpose of him dying a sinful existence is called the ransom sacrafice, to buy back what Adam had lost for all mankind. Without that sacrafice 0 would get grace. But Jesus assures all that Few will find the road that leads off into life. The reason there are 34,000 different religions claiming to be christian is because of confusion. Not by the holy spirit, but by mans dogmas taught in the schools of men.
 

PinSeeker

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Grammatically YHWH could be translated as either "I am" or "I will be." Considering the context in which He told Moses His name, I believe that latter makes more sense.
Both are true. YHWH denotes eternality. God always was, He is, and He always will be. Jesus states this of Himself in John 8:58 and Revelation 22:13, and the writer of Hebrews affirms it in Hebrews 13:8,

YHWH is certainly supreme in authority, etc, but that is not what God wanted us to think over and over some 6,800 times. Instead He wanted to use His name YHWH in order to remind us those 6,800 times that He is our sufficiency and will do whatever He has to to protect and keep us.
Well, both are true. And Jesus showed this of Himself all through the gospels and especially in John 6 and John 8.

Language matters.
Certainly. And actions do, too.

I see Him as a most loving God who will do whatever it takes to protect me as I walk through the shadow of death... He shows us how much He cares for us by assuring us He'd be there for us.
Absolutely. And Jesus does the same... :)

How could you not love a God like that?
Amen! :)

Grace and peace to you.
 
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Rich R

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I told you-all sin so it is grace, because God accepts 0 sin. You are in error about Matt 7:21--because in 22-23 its those who think they are christian Jesus is telling. The Israelite religion does 0 in Jesus name, only those called Christian do.
The purpose of him dying a sinful existence is called the ransom sacrafice, to buy back what Adam had lost for all mankind. Without that sacrafice 0 would get grace. But Jesus assures all that Few will find the road that leads off into life. The reason there are 34,000 different religions claiming to be christian is because of confusion. Not by the holy spirit, but by mans dogmas taught in the schools of men.
I quoted a verse that said Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. Christians didn't exist until the day of Pentecost, so the Jews to whom Jesus spoke had no idea about Christianity. Jesus made Christianity available only after he died, was raised, and ascended into the clouds. Shortly after that the Apostles were the first Christians after they received the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. At first they were just Jews that believed Jesus. It wasn't until some time later that they were first called Christians. That's somewhere in Acts.

Here's what God says to those born again. You'll notice it's quite a bit different than anything he said to the Jews, including those in the Gospels.

Rom 3:21-22,

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
That's what Jesus made available to all who believe. Some might claim blasphemy for someone who claims they are as righteous as God. Considering the simple declaration here in Romans, I would say it's just the opposite. If God says you are as righteous as He is, then you are as righteous as He is.

Furthermore we are told in Peter that we are born again of incorruptible seed.

1 Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Incorruptible, as well as liveth and abideth for ever, are pretty clear. Read it and confess it. Once born again, how do we continue? Do we make resolutions, promises, and vows to act as Jesus acted? That's not what Galatians says.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
In general, I feel grace is grossly underappreciated. The folks who were around when Jesus walked the earth were still bound by the law. The only law we follow is to love God and love our neighbor.

Gal 5:14,

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Before Pentecost nobody had the love of God dwelling within, so they really were unable to follow such a higher form of the law. We, on the other hand, have the love of God dwelling within.

Rom 5:5,

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

We live on a much higher plane than anybody prior to Pentecost.

In general, it is very important that we always keep in mind to or about whom God is speaking as well as when He said it. Failure to do that leads to untold error and confusion, thus part of the reason for 33,000 denominations.
 

Jack

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Yes! Jesus is called the son of God some 35 times. Never called God the Son, which does nothing but cause problem after problem in understanding God's will for us. In no other arena of life would one think a son can be his own father. Just shows the power of tradition to think such a thing could be. Tradition makes the Word of God of no effect (Mark 7:13).

Thanks.
John 1 The Word was God!
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
 

Rich R

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John 1 The Word was God!
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
You can't just go changing words in the scriptures.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." is not the same as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

Better to find out exactly what "the Word" is. It's the Greek word "logos." Here's Strong's Concordance:

G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.
1. a word, something said (including the thought).
2. (by implication) a saying or expression.
3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).
4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).

Suffice it to say, an abstract thing such as logos can not literaly become a person. God had a plan, the logos, in mind from the beginning. It of course centered around Jesus. Jesus, being the perfect image of God (note: an image of something is not the thing itself), followed the plan to perfection, thus it could be said by figure of speech (figures of speech emphasize something) that Jesus became the plan in flesh. But, as I said, a plan can not literaly become a person. John is full of such figures of speech. Drinking Jesus' blood and eating his flesh are but two among many others.

I used to think exactly like yourself, but when I was presented with evidence and did my own research, I discovered that tradition does indeed make God's Word of no affect.

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
The trinity and Jesus being God are traditions not settled upon until the 4th and 5th centuries by councils called together by Roman emperors and Greek philosophy adherents. That is a historical fact, one that is easy to verify.
It's a completely different story when we get the basic nature of the two main characters correct. In this case, it's much much better story, the greatest story ever told! Try it, and you'll see what I mean. :)
 
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Keiw

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I quoted a verse that said Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. Christians didn't exist until the day of Pentecost, so the Jews to whom Jesus spoke had no idea about Christianity. Jesus made Christianity available only after he died, was raised, and ascended into the clouds. Shortly after that the Apostles were the first Christians after they received the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. At first they were just Jews that believed Jesus. It wasn't until some time later that they were first called Christians. That's somewhere in Acts.

Here's what God says to those born again. You'll notice it's quite a bit different than anything he said to the Jews, including those in the Gospels.

Rom 3:21-22,

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
That's what Jesus made available to all who believe. Some might claim blasphemy for someone who claims they are as righteous as God. Considering the simple declaration here in Romans, I would say it's just the opposite. If God says you are as righteous as He is, then you are as righteous as He is.

Furthermore we are told in Peter that we are born again of incorruptible seed.

1 Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Incorruptible, as well as liveth and abideth for ever, are pretty clear. Read it and confess it. Once born again, how do we continue? Do we make resolutions, promises, and vows to act as Jesus acted? That's not what Galatians says.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
In general, I feel grace is grossly underappreciated. The folks who were around when Jesus walked the earth were still bound by the law. The only law we follow is to love God and love our neighbor.

Gal 5:14,

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Before Pentecost nobody had the love of God dwelling within, so they really were unable to follow such a higher form of the law. We, on the other hand, have the love of God dwelling within.

Rom 5:5,

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

We live on a much higher plane than anybody prior to Pentecost.

In general, it is very important that we always keep in mind to or about whom God is speaking as well as when He said it. Failure to do that leads to untold error and confusion, thus part of the reason for 33,000 denominations.


Yes Jesus came for Gods chosen, who was Israel at that point even though they were apostocised when Jesus came. They rejected him and God cut them off-Matt 23:38. I doubt me or you are on a higher plane than John the baptizer, or Abraham, or Noah was.
Yes Love is the new covenant. Yet the majority of hearts on earth are pre meditated to return evil for evil, because they do not have that Love Jesus spoke of.
All 34,000 denominations say they have holy spirit--it isnt truth.
1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21-- both spots teach if one practices one of these sins they will not enter Gods kingdom( be saved) means they will not get grace no matter what a man with a white collar tells them or they think. thus along with all the false god worship on earth and those 2 lists-99% minimum are lost. No wonder Jesus compares these last days to Noahs day( 99.9% mislead)
 

PinSeeker

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You can't just go changing words in the scriptures.
He did no such thing. Christ Jesus always was and always will be the personification of the Father's Word.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." is not the same as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."
Well, John clarifies that for us in verse 14: "...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." And the writer of Hebrews echoes this in saying of Christ Jesus, "...in these last days He (the Father) has spoken to us by His Son (indisputably Jesus Christ), Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and He upholds the universe by the Word of His power."

Suffice it to say, an abstract thing such as logos can not literally become a person.
Yet John and the writer of Hebrews immediately above say the exact opposite of what you are saying here, as well as Paul, when he writes, "Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

God had a plan, the logos, in mind from the beginning.
Agreed.

It of course centered around Jesus.
Agreed. Jesus, Who was the Word ~ and is, and always will be, as He is eternal and unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8).

Jesus, being the perfect image of God (note: an image of something is not the thing itself)...
A well-worn Jehovah's Witness talking point... and actually a tradition of man (not all men, of course) in exactly the same sense as how Jehovah's Witnesses (try to) turn it around and throw it back in the face of believers in the triune Jehovah. What you're saying here gets into the issue of idolatry and even the first and second Commandments, that we are to "...have no other gods before (Jehovah)" and that we "...shall not make for (ourselves) a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth... (we) shall not bow down to them or serve them..." To look at an image and to worship an image of God is the fundamental breaking of the first two of the Ten Commandments. Yes, Christ Jesus most certainly is the perfect image of God, and as such He invites worship of Him. If the Watchtower position on this issue were true, it would be to say that Jesus actually encourages and even commands the breaking of the first and second Commandments, which is... well, a horrible misconstruing Who He was, is, and always will be. No, as Paul says twice in Colossians (1:15 and 3:10, and says it also in 1 Corinthians 11:7 and 2 Corinthians 4:4), He is the image of God and as such is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), and not merely made in His image and thus a reflection of His glory and nature as we are. But this is why all other images are prohibited, because they are not the image of God. To not understand this is to fly directly in the face of Paul and even accuse him of exhorting us to idolatry and blasphemy, which quite ridiculous.

Jesus deals with His disciples (and us, by extension) in John 14, when Philip, speaking for all of them, says to Him in His last days on earth, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." And what does Jesus say? He says:

"Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?"

Jesus is saying very clearly, in so many categories, “I am God.” I can anticipate at least one of the things you'll come back with on this. Yes, He does say, "The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority," but this is not, as Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly suppose, that Jesus has no authority of His own and that it is merely lended to Him for a time by the Father, but that He has this authority with and wields it in the same way as the Father. which cannot be soft-pedaled in any way. Yet again, this is one of John's central themes throughout his gospel, that Jesus was, is, and always will be God... the second Person of the one triune Jehovah.

...when I was presented with evidence and did my own research, I discovered that tradition does indeed make God's Word of no affect.
It's no "tradition." It is what it is, and no amount of human word-parsing can make it what it is not.

The trinity and Jesus being God are traditions not settled upon until the 4th and 5th centuries by councils called together by Roman emperors and Greek philosophy adherents. That is a historical fact, one that is easy to verify.
Sure, but all that means is that it was a debate among men then, and still remains one. But debates among men have no affect on the Word of God, which is what always was, is now, and always will be. As Peter (1 Peter 1:25) says, quoting from Isaiah (Isaiah 40:8):

"All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains/stands/endures forever."

It's a completely different story when we get the basic nature of the two main characters correct. In this case, it's much much better story, the greatest story ever told! Try it, and you'll see what I mean. :)
Actually, I would say exactly the same thing back to you. The real story is under-told in many ways by many groups of folks in many different ways, and the Watchtower narrative is one of them. Yours is a completely different "story," that's for sure. :) I don't mean to make light of that, because it's truly a gravely serious matter.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.
 

Rich R

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Actually, I would say exactly the same thing back to you. The real story is under-told in many ways by many groups of folks in many different ways, and the Watchtower narrative is one of them. Yours is a completely different "story," that's for sure. :) I don't mean to make light of that, because it's truly a gravely serious matter.
I'm not JW. Yes, when Jesus and God are kept in their proper positions, it is a different story, one which you do not know. I know your story but you don't know mine, so I don't see how you are in any position to comment on how the Bible reads with the understanding of Jesus actually being the son of God. You've never read it that way, so how could you know? If you had the courage to investigate, you'd quickly see your story was written by Plato, not by YHWH.