Salvation

[IBeMe]

Sargento: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

If you say you believe and don't do, you're " likened unto a foolish man."

" But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

...

Sargento: "Because what you just described is salvation at a cost ..."

No, I just quoted scriptures and the scriptures have confused you because you don't know the difference between scriptures referring to salvation, and a Christian's responsibility after salvation.

" Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Salvation is the free gift of God "remission of sins that are past."

Only, "remission of sins that are past."

After that, you're fully accountable for all your actions.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

"... who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear"

"... and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

"... for I have not found thy works perfect before God."

Not only, you're going to be judged for every word:

" But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

...

" Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

 

[In Christ]

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is accepting, believing, and having faith in Jesus are works that we perform? Yes!!!

The word 'believe' is a verb of the noun 'faith.' Many Christians do not understand the word faith is a work. We read in 1Thessalonians 1:3:

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience
of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The very essence of faith is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Faithful One of Israel. Thus, we can paraphrase Ephesians 2:8 this way: “For by grace are you saved through Jesus (faith).” Or, “Daughter, be of good comfort; thy Christ (faith) hath made thee whole” Matthew 9:22.

By the two illustrations above, do we really have faith? In truth, God has to give us faith.

The call to believe in Jesus is to all the world, but many are called and few are chosen.

The gospel of works which is prevalent in many churches today is a lucrative gospel, in that, a person can “feel good” that somehow he can make some kind of contribution to his salvation, The problem is that he is spiritually dead, that there are none righteous no not one, and there are none that seeks after God. If this is God's assessment of the human race, how can any declare all he has to do to become saved is to believe and have faith in Jesus? This is impossible!!! The devils believe and they tremble.

The gospel of works is contrary to Ephesians 2:9

Then there are those who claim Rom. 10:9-10 but this too is a works gospel. The problem is the heart above all is deceitful and wicked, who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

The only work that is righteous is the one demonstrated by Jesus on the cross. He alone did all the work to save us.

Question? How did the Old Testament believers become saved if it is imperative to confess, believe in, and have faith in Jesus and He was not born yet?

 

[IBeMe]

In Christ: The gospel of works is contrary to Ephesians 2:9

Did it ever occur to you that everywhere the word "works' appears, it doesn't mean the same thing?

Either you, or Paul, is really confused about the word, "work."

" That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
" That they do good, that they be rich in good works"
" sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
" And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

It's utterly silly to preach that Jesus came and died so that we can sit our butt.

" Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly...
If that was true than we would all be saved...

Is this what you believe?

HE brought salvation to who believe in HIM, not the others.... HE made distinction.

I believe in the scriptures.

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

11 For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
Romans 5:18 (NLT)

Are your beliefs based on scripture?

 

[In Christ]

Posted Today, 07:43 PM


In Christ: The gospel of works is contrary to Ephesians 2:9

Did it ever occur to you that everywhere the word "works' appears, it doesn't mean the same thing?

Either you, or Paul, is really confused about the word, "work."

" That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
" That they do good, that they be rich in good works"
" sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
" And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

It's utterly silly to preach that Jesus came and died so that we can sit our butt.

" Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

IBEME

I surely know about good works, but apparently you don't.

Are you speaking of works before or after salvation? Or, do you know the difference?

You don't seem to understand the relationship between Eph. 2:8 and Eph. 2:9.

Can you refute the interpretations I've offered?

After all, the scripture texts presented came from the Bible.

Can you answer the question I asked?

The last sentence on your post is very profound and looked like it pertains to you.

 

[IBeMe]

(Ephesians Chapter 2)

8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What does Paul's use of the word, "works", reefer to?

1: specifically at salvation
1A: "saved"
2: works of the law given to Moses
2A: verse 15, "law of commandments contained in ordinances"

(Works of the Law: Leviticus 1)
" ... If any man of you bring an offering ..."
" ... If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd ..."
" ... Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood ..."

This is what Paul's use of the word, "works", is referring to, Leviticus. (the law given to Moses)

It's impossible for anyone to do "works of the law" today.
1: there isn't a temple are tabernacle.
2: this requirement can't be upheld, " Aaron's sons, shall ..."

God's forgiveness of our sins, at salvation, is only "for the remission of sins that are past." Rom 3:25

It's erroneous to equate the word "works", referring to works of the law, to other scriptures containing the word "works", referencing to a Christian's responsibility after salvation.

We shall indeed be judged by our works, " were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Not "our works" as works of the flesh; " Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness ..."

But "our works" as born-again-flesh-crucified Christians; following the Holy Spirit, walking in the Word and doing the works of Christ.

Our work, the work that we're accountable for, is His work, " he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end ..."

Our work, "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

(doeth) = to bring to pass, carry out, do another's wishes, perform, execute, do some work, did his duty

We must keep our vessels clean to do His work, " a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

" Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

We can't just hear, we have to "doeth them."

And the work we do must be built on The Rock.

If we have faith, let us believe Jesus when He says, "doeth", which, by definition, requires "work."


.

 

[In Christ]

Ephesians 2:8-9

I'm afraid you still have not grasped the meaning of the verses mentioned.

Eph. 2:8

“For by grace are ye saved through faith.”

Answer: It is by the grace of God that we can become saved. And, since Jesus is the very essence of faith (because He is the Faithful One), it is through Him that anyone can be saved.

“And that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”

Answer: Not through our own efforts but given as a gift from God.

Eph. 2:9

“Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Answer: Not through our own works, lest any man should boast in his own conceits.

Compare Titus 3:5:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Luke 17:10:

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded
you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Luke 18:29-30:

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house,
or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake, Who shall
not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

The Old Testament Covenant was by works in that the Jews had to offer blood sacrifices. In the New Testament, it is all by grace attributed to the work of Jesus Christ that He alone did the work to save us.

Still you have not so much as answered my question and seem to ignore it. It is alright if you do not know the answer because we all do not have a perfect understanding of Scripture, least of all me.

 

[IBeMe]

In Christ: ...

...

We are saved by faith in Jesus.

After salvation, we will be judged by our works. (everything that we do, and don't do)

Jesus; "I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

The work we are to do is His work, "... he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end ..."

So, salvation isn't by works.

If we die the second we're saved, then we did the only work we were required to do; believe on Jesus.

If we're still alive after salvation, then we must do what the Word tells us to do, and not do what the Word tells us not to do.

After salvation, what we "do" is our "works".

Judgement is the evaluation of a person's actions ... did he, or didn't he, "do" something?

So, judgement is the evaluation of "works".

Salvation isn't by works, but we are responsible for our actions after salvation ... our actions, or lack of, is the "works" we will be judged for.

God is a God of mercy and judgment.

He mercifully forgives our transgressions, but He holds us accountable for our actions after that. (our works)

Salvation is a free gift from God paid for by the blood of Jesus; what are we going to do after that?

...

In Christ: Still you have not so much as answered my question ...

...

You'll have to ask it again.

I don't read all of every post.
I don't respond to all of every post.
I may have felt I answered it.
I may have forgotten to answer it.
I may have ignored it.
For sure, I'm not going to try and find it.

So, you'll have to ask again.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Hi Sarg,

I started a topic awhile back. You can check it out here.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17653-hermeneutics-101-works-of-law-vs-works-of-grace/?hl=hermeneutics

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Thank you for your reply. I am on my way to work and cannot spend time. But I suggest that you will know more about my thoughts on this matter from my replies on the subject of Paul vs. James. As well, concerning agenda...how many people on this site do you suppose have no agenda? Of course there's an agenda. If one wants to spark a discussion or debate, I am sure there is a motive behind it. Why put a negative slant on it as though this is some kind of anomaly? You have an agenda don't you? If you don't, what are you doing here?

Sure I have an agenda, I just don't like having it confused with somebody else's agenda. I didn't open the door to divisiveness on this thread. The OP already threw that door wide open.

Greetings. Over all, these are good comments and conclusions in my opinion. However, I have to disagree with your grievance against James. You see, If he is preaching another gospel, then his letter should not be in the bible. And if that is the case, God was not in control of what went into the bible and what did not. And if that is the case, then we have no way of trusting anything that is in there.

This is precisely why I have exhorted you to consider the context. If we go back into history as written, we can see that although Abraham first stumbled around trying to help God with His promise by producing an illegitimate son, the promise was not affected. Abraham was not required to have faith in order for the promise of the son through Sarah to be fulfilled. There was no "if" involved. God simply announced His intentions and carried them out. However, Abraham having seen that God was able to fulfill His word, changed his mind and became a believer. But this came through a test of his faith. He was justified by faith. But this happened through a test. Therefore his works, as it were, came into the equation. His work was to go ahead and go along with sacrificing his son.

James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.

The conclusion is that though one might claim to have faith, it is through observing their actions and words that we can see the reality of yay or nay. But as I said earlier, James did not tell them to show God their faith by their works..he said show "me".

Williemac, I don't know what to say to somebody who says that James is wrong. I share the same belief as most Protestants that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God and I don't pit one revelation against another. We don't have common ground on which to have a fruitful discussion on this.

 

[williemac]

Aspen...

How do you recognize a Christian?



Williemac...

No.. GOD was and is always in control. This letter is here because HE wanted it to be here because it has a purpose... just like this:

And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
2 Tessalonicenses 2:11

Yes, before Abraham did that "justifying good work" he disbelief... and if works were a proof of his faith, before the good work Abraham did a bad one... I haven't told that here yet, but it's good that you saw it.
Now, what you say next is not right... even if he did not passed that test like he failed that previous of waiting for GOD, he would still be justified because GOD is faithful.
He's works NEVER came into the equation regarding his justification like James claims... but this is in the James topic.



NO, this is YOU talking, not James... this is your own context not the one we read in James... do not create contexts that do not exist.
The only way to see what you're saying is precisely by looking at just one verse and ignoring the rest to give it your context, but if you do read the context that's written there James is defending justification by works in this letter all the time.

Speaking of WAAY out of context, your quote from 2Thess, is a dismal attempt at justifying how an error can be allowed in scripture. That passage refers to the time of the end, when the antichrist is on the earth. James was written a little before that time. In fact, Paul was also referring to those who had pleasure in unrighteousness. The lie, therefore, would not be to work for their salvation.

The context of James reveals his intention. He in no way was telling them to be justified for life by their works. They had already been justified by faith, as far as James would have been concerned. He addressed them concerning faith in the beginning of the letter. He was telling them to justify their faith through good works (love).
He would have known all about Abraham, even more so than you or I. In fact, he gave two examples. The other was Rahab the harlot. Since her example was thrown into the arena, it would follow that she too was justified by her works. In both cases, the point was that their works were proof that they believed God. James, in revealing this, would not have used these examples to tell his readers that they needed works to justify them for salvation to life. He was talking about offering proof of faith. You can tell that simply through his examples.

That which you refer to as "my" context, is merely my understanding of the intention of the letter.

 

[In Christ]

Williemac, I don't know what to say to somebody who says that James is wrong. I share the same belief as most Protestants that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God and I don't pit one revelation against another. We don't have common ground on which to have a fruitful discussion on this.

This Vale of Tears

I too will not have a common ground to have a fruitful discussion with anyone who is a hypocrite, who pretends to share the same beliefs with other Protestants, that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God. While at the same time advocates to the concept he should not believe in the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church and Augustine.

The Bible is the ultimate Authority and no other!

 

[Dodo_David]

let us believe Jesus when He says, "doeth"

Gee, I didn't know that Jesus spoke in archaic English.

 

[Sargento]

HI Dan...

I think salvation is a gift, and comes only through our belief and faith in Christ, but our reward is determined by our works.

So salvation is a gift but the reward is paid? Is that it?

That said, hypocrites are also warned; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23) also (Matthew 25: 31-46).

How can you believe that salvation is a gift but than interpret this?
And what makes us saints? What is our justice? Works?

So apparently, its our belief that saves us, but God is not mocked, insincere believers (hypocrites) aren't acceptable. "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)

Revelations is written in parables... you know this right?

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; {of the Laodiceans: or, in Laodicea}
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and {that} the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:14-22


What is our richness, gives us eyes, and dresses us up? Our works or HIS justice?
Their works were bad because their were trusting in works, not faith... because what pleases GOD is faith, not works like if we could do something good out or our own! Bad works is not believing!

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

Again, not having faith are the bad works... because our works are bad, and whoever doesn't believe in HIS grace will present works to HIM... but whoever believes in HIM is just in his works because of faith even without doing any works...

Because from works we get salary, but from faith we get gift (for faith it self is already a GIFT).


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:4-5

.........//.........

For the wages of sin {is} death; but the gift of God {is} eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

And what is good or bad towards GOD? What is the will of the Father?

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jon 6:28-29

What will HE look for when HE comes?

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves (works) that they were righteous, and despised others: {that...: or, as being righteous}
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men {are}, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as {his} eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified {rather} than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:8-14

This is your verse...

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in {this} tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing {is} God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore {we are} always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
We are confident, {I say}, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. {labour: or, endeavour}
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things {done} in {his} body, according to that he hath done, whether {it be} good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to {answer} them which glory in appearance (works), and not in heart (faith). {in appearance: Gr. in the face}
2 Coríntios 5:2-12

These clothes are the ones we saw in Rev 3:14-22.

Works obviously determine a persons sincerity, if we truly love Christ, we will keep his commandments (John 14:15). Otherwise; "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car." :)

No, works DO NOT determine anything ... or did you never heard of a wicked man doing good deeds? Or a just sinning?
What are HIS commandments? Here's your passage:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if {it were} not {so}, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, {there} ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Believe me that I {am} in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater {works} than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do {it}.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
João 14:1-15

So, what is HE commanding?

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car

Of course not... it's what you are, not what you do! Being in the garage or not being makes no difference, not even running or not running makes a difference.
Also what makes a Christian is not what he does but what Christ did.... if HE bought him than he is Christ's, and therefor Christian.

I'll answer to the others later... no time right now.

 

[williemac]

Sargento, just so you know, other than our disagreement about James, we are on the same page. For those whom it concerns...The real issue is pride vs. humility. The original sin was that of Lucifer, who forsook his created purpose and determined to become as God, so to speak. Self exaltation is not acceptable to God, as seen in Luke 18:10-14. If works play any part in acquiring life from God, then they allow cause for boasting. Salvation is not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. Life is a free gift (Rom.5:15-18).

Since we are told that God gives grace to the humble, then faith is merely a product of humility. Faith exalts God, as it is the means by which one accepts a free gift from Him. This is real saving faith, and the only works that help to justify would be those that prove this kind of faith. In the end, the works themselves will not be the determining of rewards, either. It will be the motive. eg. Two people can do exactly the same benevolence, one with the intent to gain something, the other to share what he has been given. The latter is real fruit and will stand the test of fire on the judgment seat. For " who has fist given to Him, and it shall be repaid him?" (Rom.11:35)

Grace and peace, Howie

 

[Sargento]

Ibeme...

Sargento: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

If you say you believe and don't do, you're " likened unto a foolish man."

" But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

...

You believe and don't do?? Tell me Ibeme, what do you believe in (I await your answer) so that you're doings testify your faith?
If you do less you loose your faith? If you do more you have more faith??

Sargento: "Because what you just described is salvation at a cost ..."

No, I just quoted scriptures and the scriptures have confused you because you don't know the difference between scriptures referring to salvation, and a Christian's responsibility after salvation.

" Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Salvation is the free gift of God "remission of sins that are past."

Only, "remission of sins that are past."

After that, you're fully accountable for all your actions.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

"... who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear"

"... and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

"... for I have not found thy works perfect before God."

Not only, you're going to be judged for every word:

" But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

...

" Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Only of sins that are past.????.. my friend, than what are your chances of being saved? Or didn't you ever sinned again?
If only the pure will see GOD do you think you will?

There's not much more to expose in you, you already shown you do not believe in HIS grace.... I mean, more obvious is difficult.

It would be better to have stayed with the daily sacrifices of the sheep, at least we would have that "reset" everyday and not just once, now you just have a chance that I suspect you've already blown it. Or have you never sinned again? And remember Ibeme, just by desiring any sin for GOD you already committed it!

If you think your actions are going to count to salvation than you are flawless now or you're expecting certain condemnation? Which of these is it??

 

[Dan57]

HI Dan...

Again, not having faith are the bad works... because our works are bad, and whoever doesn't believe in HIS grace will present works to HIM... but whoever believes in HIM is just in his works because of faith even without doing any works...

No, works DO NOT determine anything ...

Of course not... it's what you are, not what you do!

I simply believe that we are accepted into eternal life via our belief and faith in Christ, we are justified through His sacrifice. But I also believe that we reap what we sow, our good works lay up treasure in heaven (Matthew 6:20).

Our deeds on earth matter, Jesus said that those who love me will also keep my commandments (John 14:21). Paul said that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You seem to be under the impression that good works don't matter, and Christians can ignore the example Christ set because we are all equally rewarded by belief alone? Your implying that the difference between the hypocrite and the faithful in the hereafter makes no difference, but I don't think Jesus taught that at all (Matthew 5:20).

If works don't matter, why did Christ inspire us to develop good works and do good deeds (Matthew 25:35-46)? In the scenario you paint, it doesn't matter whether a person feeds the orphans and widows or goes out and robs banks every night, every believer will be equally rewarded? Doesn't what we do determine who we are? (Matthew 7:16)

 

[Dodo_David]

If works don't matter, why did Christ inspire us to develop good works and do good deeds (Matthew 25:35-46)? In the scenario you paint, it doesn't matter whether a person feeds the orphans and widows or goes out and robs banks every night, every believer will be equally rewarded? Doesn't what we do determine who we are? (Matthew 7:16)

Uh, it appears to me that the topic of this thread has changed from salvation to heavenly rewards.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

This Vale of Tears

I too will not have a common ground to have a fruitful discussion with anyone who is a hypocrite, who pretends to share the same beliefs with other Protestants, that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God. While at the same time advocates to the concept he should not believe in the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church and Augustine.

The Bible is the ultimate Authority and no other!

There is no hypocricy and the Catholic Church's position on this has been consistent since long before the reformation. The Bible being all true doesn't mean it contains all truth, particularly when it comes to doctrine, faith, and ecclesiastical matters. And the Bible being all true doesn't give it authority, for the Bible never ascribes itself authority, but instead points repeatedly to the true source of authority, the Church.

The only thing we agree on is that we can't have a fruitful discussion because you don't even believe the Bible to be inerrant and think that you can pick and choose which parts you think are valid and which aren't. You break fellowship even with Protestants in this matter. You don't like what St. James teaches in his epistle, so you conclude that he's teaching error. Speaking of authority, by which authority do you base this on? Yourself??

At least the real Protestants on this forum can be trusted to trust the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Dodo_David]

And the Bible being all true doesn't give it authority, for the Bible never ascribes itself authority, but instead points repeatedly to the true source of authority, the Church.

The Church is the universal Body of Christ, consisting of all believers in Messiah Jesus, those who are messianic Jews, Protestants, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc.