I'd answer that if we are not changed people, for what reason would we claim rebirth?
Much love!
Salvation with works, not by works
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Much love!
And so the proof of our salvation to ourselves is by the works of faith of the new creature created unto good works?
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Cor 13:5)
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. (Eph 5)
What about a Jew or a Muslim that turns from their selfishness and wickedness to become a loving servant of others while remaining in the religion of his or her parents (thereby honouring their parents as the commandment states). Is that what born again means to you?
John 3:3-7 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus is speaking of becoming a new person, a new creation. That which is born of flesh is flesh. We were born from Adam, fleshy. To be born again is to be born of God, to be a new person, spirit, as is God. That which is born of spirit is spirit.
If you are only fleshy, you cannot see, cannot enter the kingdom of God. Being reborn spirit, you are transfered out of the kingdom of darkness, into Jesus' kingdom. The Kingdom of God.
Only those who have received, and walked in, the life that is from heaven will be counted to be in the running for the standard expected of the Bride. The Bride of Adam, Eve, was only taken from ONE bone of His Body. likewise the Bride of Christ comes only from the members of His Body that are closest to His own heart.
Ephesians 5:29-32 KJV
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
There is a much greater truth here. We are already joined to Him.
Much love!
The first and foremost proof of our salvation is our faith in Christ.
Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith.
This is like in Romans 8, the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. So I like to ask, do you have that testimony?
Much love!
Exactly! Living a kingdom life is by miraculous grace and faculties. And the very first proof of being in the kingdom realm is that sin has no power over us. In Christ there is no sin.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (Titus 1)
And yet there are those that do profess and believe salvation of God, but in works deny Him, in sight of God?
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. (Luke 12)
The question would be, why do they, not what reason is there for it?
That which is born of flesh is flesh. If you remain a fleshy person, that is not rebirth. That which is born of spirit is spirit. If you have only had a fleshy birth, then Jesus said you have to have that spiritual birth also, so you will be a spiritual being, not fleshy.
You've mentioned Jew or Muslim. What about Animist? If you desire to be the best Animist you can be, does this please God? Or is God able to know the heart of the one raised Hindu, who seeks Him, will they not find Him?
Will God tell them, Worship your 9 million gods, I'll receive that as worship of Me, pray to your 9 million gods, I'll answer in their stead. Or will the True God tell them . . . what is true?
Is there a way to God that is not Jesus? Didn't He already answer that?
Much love!
What part of "you will be judged by your works" are you not able to comprehend? Do you realize how much you are imprinting your own failed logic onto eternal truth?
True. First and foremost. The beginning of salvation in Christ by grace is faith. BUt Paul was speaking in context of open sin.
Nevertheless, one more question: are you saying that works of faith, whether done or not, and works of darkness, whether done or not, having nothing to do with being saved, so long as you believe Jesus has saved you?
I.e. If we believe Jesus is Lord, and confess such, then repentance is not necessary for salvation by Jesus?
(Believe me. I am not trying to grill you nor test you, but I do want to know as clearly as possible, exactly what you believe and why, to see if I can agree or not, and perhaps adopt it for myself, because normally I would not. So thanks for answering)
Why do they what, deny God? Isn't Why answered with a reason? You are confusing me. What is it you are saying?
I'm saying our first and primary evidence of our salvation - this is to our selves - is our trust in Jesus. Do you agree or disagree?
Much love!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The History and Truth about Works!
You can look this up for yourself…there are two Greek words in the New Testament that are mostly interchangeable for the words works or deeds.
έργα
πράξεις
But neither of these words apply to salvation, nor do they apply to the actions of salvation, in other words baptism, is never referred to as a work or a deed in the New Testament.
The only time that the word works is seen in a religious context is when the scriptures are discussing works of the Law, in other words, the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians, so it is irrelevant. The Apostle Paul argued this point against the Judaizers throughout his ministry and it is reflected in several scriptures, and this includes the first Christian council in Jerusalem in 50 ad where Paul argued the point and James affirmed the fact that Christians were not required to observe the Mosaic Law. The whole works of the Law thing came to head, in Galatians 5:4 he stated that You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
There are a few reasons why some people have issues with the words works and deeds. Some of it is just things that people do not understand for one reason or another. Some of it goes back to the beginning of the Protestant reform where “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” was more or less a battle cry against the Catholic Church which believed it had authority over salvation and required certain works to be saved. A lot of resentment there and rightly so.
But this caused an attitude to expand and encompass any good action, even to the point that some Christians hate anything good. Certainly Christ expects us to do good things for one another….love one another is more than an empty cliché. But if you mention doing good or being good, some will rise up in arms and declare “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” When nobody is talking about deeds or works in relation to salvation. They try to insinuate and deceive by suggesting that someone is saying works is required for salvation. Don’t be deceived, the real point they are making, is that morality and or good deeds are not part of Christianity.
Isn’t it odd that there are Christians against good? For some, even morality is considered a work and not required for Christians. Down right weird to me. How many examples did Christ give us of doing good? How many scriptures are there about doing good? How many scriptures pertaining to morality? Is there any question that Christianity is about morality and doing good? Sad that it is, it is for some. For some, they strongly object to it.
So the next time you hear or read the battle cry “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” Know for a fact that it is a battle cry against all that is good. Usually when people proclaim this, they are attempting to deceive….lie! They know what the topic is about! No one is going to start a thread about Good Deeds Save! The truth is that they do not like good, they do not want to be good or do good. The truth is, Christ does expect us to be good and do good. What is the alternative?
You can look this up for yourself…there are two Greek words in the New Testament that are mostly interchangeable for the words works or deeds.
έργα
πράξεις
But neither of these words apply to salvation, nor do they apply to the actions of salvation, in other words baptism, is never referred to as a work or a deed in the New Testament.
The only time that the word works is seen in a religious context is when the scriptures are discussing works of the Law, in other words, the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians, so it is irrelevant. The Apostle Paul argued this point against the Judaizers throughout his ministry and it is reflected in several scriptures, and this includes the first Christian council in Jerusalem in 50 ad where Paul argued the point and James affirmed the fact that Christians were not required to observe the Mosaic Law. The whole works of the Law thing came to head, in Galatians 5:4 he stated that You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
There are a few reasons why some people have issues with the words works and deeds. Some of it is just things that people do not understand for one reason or another. Some of it goes back to the beginning of the Protestant reform where “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” was more or less a battle cry against the Catholic Church which believed it had authority over salvation and required certain works to be saved. A lot of resentment there and rightly so.
But this caused an attitude to expand and encompass any good action, even to the point that some Christians hate anything good. Certainly Christ expects us to do good things for one another….love one another is more than an empty cliché. But if you mention doing good or being good, some will rise up in arms and declare “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” When nobody is talking about deeds or works in relation to salvation. They try to insinuate and deceive by suggesting that someone is saying works is required for salvation. Don’t be deceived, the real point they are making, is that morality and or good deeds are not part of Christianity.
Isn’t it odd that there are Christians against good? For some, even morality is considered a work and not required for Christians. Down right weird to me. How many examples did Christ give us of doing good? How many scriptures are there about doing good? How many scriptures pertaining to morality? Is there any question that Christianity is about morality and doing good? Sad that it is, it is for some. For some, they strongly object to it.
So the next time you hear or read the battle cry “You are saved by faith alone, not by works!” Know for a fact that it is a battle cry against all that is good. Usually when people proclaim this, they are attempting to deceive….lie! They know what the topic is about! No one is going to start a thread about Good Deeds Save! The truth is that they do not like good, they do not want to be good or do good. The truth is, Christ does expect us to be good and do good. What is the alternative?
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What makes you think I have a lack of comprehension? Do you have a more meaningful question?
Are we so quickly leaving our discussion of the Word of God for this?
If you are not born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus said that, I'm just repeating it.
I saw the dead, small and great, all were judged by what was written in the books, and all who were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire.
Only the living are received. Only those who have the spirit life, not the fleshy life, which is condemned.
Much love!
Work and practice.
Ergon is more like Henry Ford building a car. (it is God who works within you)
Katergadzomai is like the assembly line worker assembling that car. (work out your salvation)
Praxeis is getting up every day and going to work at the plant. (the Acts of the Apostles)
Much love!
A breath of fresh air, most appreciated! Let me think a bit for the best way to reply.
Much love!
And I'm assuming this means you prefer to not respond what what I wrote? Only to move it to a personal level?
There is no need to continue, if on that basis.
Much love!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am not going to debate this....it is to easy to look up. What I said is the facts.
Labor is discussed in the Bible, but it has nothing to do with my post.
No I'm not.
I'm saying that when God sees we believe His Word, as we receive Jesus, believing in His Name, He begets us, and we are now that new person.
This is salvation, being born into God's family. Instead of sharing Adam's corruption, and the destiny of corrupt flesh, we now share Jesus' righteous nature, and share His eternal life.
Repentance, from Metanoia, means, the after mind, the result of having exchanged our old mind for a new mind. Repentance is having that new mind. When we choose to believe that Jesus is Lord, that He rose from the dead, this is to repudiate ourselves as our own lord, and embrace Jesus as Lord. That is repentance. The after mind, the mind of Christ.
Repentance is intrinsic to salvation but it's deeper than just saying we'll stop doing such and such. It's about who we are, and who we become.
Much love!
