I think he's asking you if the "works which accompany salvation" are a part of obtaining that salvation, or do they result from salvation already obtained?
Much love!
Salvation with works, not by works
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Much love!
If that's what he is asking, I think I had already answered him...
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
By grace God heals, and we treat the symptoms.
When we believe Jesus from the heart, God saves our soul by grace and heals our sickness with inward circumcision of the heart. And with salvation we treat and work out the things that accompany salvation: the outward symptoms of sins by repentance from dead works, and maintain outward health of good works, and go on to perfection of producing the fruits of the spirit:
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)
These are things that accompany salvation, when God does His part by grace to heal, and we do our part to be healthy and grow.
If we do no our part, then we become barren and unfruitful in Christ, and have no part in the body of Christ nor in His First resurrection, because salvation by grace is not without faith, nor without works of faith which accompany salvation of God:
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
When we believe Jesus from the heart, God saves our soul by grace and heals our sickness with inward circumcision of the heart. And with salvation we treat and work out the things that accompany salvation: the outward symptoms of sins by repentance from dead works, and maintain outward health of good works, and go on to perfection of producing the fruits of the spirit:
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)
These are things that accompany salvation, when God does His part by grace to heal, and we do our part to be healthy and grow.
If we do no our part, then we become barren and unfruitful in Christ, and have no part in the body of Christ nor in His First resurrection, because salvation by grace is not without faith, nor without works of faith which accompany salvation of God:
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
When is it we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works? What does that mean? Is it being conceived in corrupt flesh? Or being reborn of the Spirit?
Notice . . . created IN Christ Jesus.
Much love!
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
When is it we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works? What does that mean? Is it being conceived in corrupt flesh? Or being reborn of the Spirit?
Notice . . . created IN Christ Jesus.
Much love!
The things which accompany salvation are not that salvation.
There is no Scripture for separating that salvation from the salvation that is accompanied with the things of that salvation. That is unnecessary complication of salvation of God, and confusing.
The things that accompany salvation literally come with that salvation. And so without those things accompanying that salvation, that salvation is not God's by grace. Trying to separate 'that salvation' from the things that accompany that salvation is trying to separate salvation from it's own things of salvation: A kind of 'stand alone' salvation, that has nothing with it at all.
Babies of the flesh come into the world unclothed and naked, but not babes in Christ. Salvation is to be clothed of God, not naked before the world: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Cor 5:3)
The things that come with salvation are with salvation at all times, and without them, there is no salvation at any time.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2)
A man may say, thou art saved, and I have the things that accompany salvation: show me your salvation without those things, and I will show you salvation with those things.
Without those things accompanying, I will show you a salvation that is not with God, but with dead faith without God.
You are unfortunately trying to separate God's salvation from God's good works that accompany salvation from the beginning, from the very first of salvation: the things with salvation are the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, being repentance from dead works and faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)
There is no faith toward God unto good works, without repentance from dead works, and there is no salvation of God without faith toward God.
I'm saying this as a point of logic in communication. Sorry if I was confusing! Sometimes I look back on something I've posted and wonder how anyone could understand what I meant!
Real salvation changes us, and being changed, we think and live differently.
But that difference in how we think and live is not what saves us, He Who made that change, He saves us.
So then the works we do as Christians are not the salvation that makes us Christians. Hopefull this will clarify.
And hopefully you will understand better what I mean. I don't think you were seeing my intent.
Much love!
Your analogy suggests a 'cocoon time' in salvation? That time and event of salvation apart from the accompanying things of salvation?
A better analogy is the one Scripture uses:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered...And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Rev 12)
There is no 'fetus time' in salvation of God. The seed may be planted in the field, and they know Jesus is Lord, but salvation is when it takes root and brings forth the child of faith, and that is a man-child caught up immediately by God to sit in the heavenly places of His throne room.
We are born in Christ, clothed in white linen of imputed righteousness, and with the commandment to do His works of faith. There are no things 'following', nor works 'following' salvation: there are the things that accompany salvation by commandment of God.
Separating that salvation from the things that accompany it, is to separate that salvation from the commandment of God: repent and be ye converted (Acts 3:19): Repentance does not follow salvation, but comes with it. Repentance is not doing good works, therefore we are not saved by works, but without repentance there is no salvation at all.
With that salvation of God and being born again of His Spirit, is the instant things that accompany: repentance from dead works and faith toward God, which are by grace, both to be planted, and to take root in repentance, and to be caught up in faith toward God: both salvation and justification in Christ.
And so, trying to separate that salvation of God, standing still and alone without those things necessary to salvation by grace, is to try and separate that salvation of God from the grace of God, that giveth the increase immediately.
That is the power and grace of God's salvation, that brings with it the righteousness and the peace and the joy in the Holy Ghost. No peace to the wicked, no joy in dead works: the righteousness of Jesus comes with salvation first: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
The things that accompany salvation are the white horses and white linen of the saints following Him to war. Salvation is when we are caught up to God to sit thereon, clothed in white linen (Rev 19).
Without these things of salvation, that come with salvation, there is no salvation at all, at any time, in no way separate from them.
There is no 'cocoon' time of salvation, and there is no sitting on a white horse clothed in white linen in a cocoon.
Being born again, being saved is neither in the womb nor the cocoon. The fetus and the seed and the larva are there, but not the babe in Christ.
Seed planted and conception is one thing, but salvation taking root and becoming new born is another thing altogether.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (John 3)
We can be born again, but not in a womb. There is no cocoon nor womb of God. There is ground He plants His seed in, but until it takes root and is born, it is not salvation of God, with things that accompany it: being openly dressed in white linen for starters.
"Salvation is found in the Person of Jesus Christ"
Salvation without things accompanying is not found in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Unless, there are no things accompanying salvation to be found in the Person of jesus Christ. And accompanying literally means 'having with'.
Rather, I was highlighting the transformation, not the mechanics of the biology.
Much love!
The first condition of God for salvation by grace has always been that of repentance:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)
No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.
To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"
God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is writteneven before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)
Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:
Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.
Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.
Unless,
1. There is salvation without repentance.
2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.
3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.
4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.
5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.
Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)
No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.
To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"
God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is writteneven before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)
Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:
Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.
Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.
Unless,
1. There is salvation without repentance.
2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.
3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.
4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.
5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.
Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.
Is salvation conditioned on repentance? with whatever definition you want to apply.
And so, is there:
1. Salvation without repentance.
2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.
I was just wondering how you understand the word "repentance", being translated from "metanoia".
Are we saying the same thing here? That salvation is conditioned on being changed from old fleshy man to new spiritual man, with old fleshy mind exchanged for a new spiritual mind? That is the meaning of metanoia, commonly translated repentance. It's the 'after-mind', that is, the result of having exchanged one's mind for a new mind.
In this context, we're talking about repudiating the mind of the flesh, though we don't necessarily know this terminolgy, only, I'm not enough, I need Jesus! We repudiate ourselves, who we are, the fleshy child of Adam, choosing instead that Jesus would forgive us, save us, and He changes us. We are born from God, sharing now His nature, alive not because we live in bodies of flesh, but because we live in the Holy Spirit. And now we have a new mind, the mind of the flesh has been exchanged for the mind of Christ.
This is metanoia, repentance.
Much love!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I say we are saved by grace through faith alone! Once we are saved and eternally secure, God has given us a new nature raised our dead spirit and then we start fdoing the works that god foreordained we should walk in. good works are a result of being saved and having nothing to do with aperson getting or staying saved.
We are commanded to good works, but the works do not keep us saved. they are a result of us being eternally secure in christ.
@Ronald Nolette Verse 10 of Ephesians 2 follows on from verses 8 & 9, but does not negate them! :)
"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
There is also a salvation by works. What Paul is explaining in his letters is that there is a salvation apart from the law which is by faith. One doesn't negate the other. The problem that Paul had was in mixing these to mean the same thing. But modern believers do precisely that. They mix the two in order to confuse the issue of grace.
Grace is only for what is impossible for men.
Can we stop sinning? Well, not by human means, but indeed by grace. We can do all things through Christ.
But if we can't stop sinning then we are still under the law. Most believers are still under the law whether they will admit it or not. Very few have entered into the grace from heaven.
So by knocking the law, many are knocking their own chance at righteousness.
The righteousness of God is NOT as filthy rags. One cannot sin in the righteousness of God. If someone sins it proves they are relying on their own righteousness.
So how many are really under grace? How many are simply lawless Gentiles who have adopted a religious creed that they have been led to believe saves them?
The gospel is not just a message about liberation from sin...it is the power over sin. Jesus came into the world to save people FROM their sins...not IN their sins. The word in Greek for remission...is aphesis which means "freedom." Remission from sins means the same as a cancer that is in remission. It means it is no longer active. The power that caused the cancer (or sin) has been disconnected, rendered powerless. Paul says that through the power of the cross of Christ we are rendered dead to sin. But how many have truly experienced a walk under grace?
God is not only looking for surrendered vessels who walk in His eternal life...but also He accepts all who DO what is right and fear His name.
(Acts 10:35) “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
Being accepted with God is not the same as being pleasing to Him. No one in the flesh can please God. But the standard of acceptance is indeed by works. We will all be judged by our works, not by what we have believed.
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Galatians 6:12-15 KJV
12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13) For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
John 3:3 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Rather, we need a new life. A life given by God, so we live with Him, now, and eternally.
Much love!
So, if the things accompanying salvation are not present: repentance from dead works and faith toward God, then the one believing salvation by God is saved?
Or is this the case of professing salvation, but in works denying salvation of God?
Once again, this is not about 'eternal security', this is about what is salvation of God by grace.
And this is absolutely true for those who are in Christ.
Jesus here is speaking of having spiritual faculties. No one can receive spiritual faculties (like seeing into the kingdom realm) unless that one born again by the Spirit.
Likewise unless one is born naturally one cannot see the temporal world.
The same goes for spiritual sight.
Many have very mistakenly taken being born again to mean salvation, so they have reduced the standard of spiritual life to something they are already doing. No wonder there are so few real seekers of God in this generation.
To experience eternal life now one must enter into Christ...to walk as He walked. But salvation is bigger than that. There are many more who will be saved as guests to the wedding feast of the lamb. The Bride are few. The guests are many. And God extends the invitation to those who are "both bad and good." Those are they who were never crucified with Christ and continued to live a life that was both bad and good, never having conquered sin through grace. Only those who have received, and walked in, the life that is from heaven will be counted to be in the running for the standard expected of the Bride. The Bride of Adam, Eve, was only taken from ONE bone of His Body. likewise the Bride of Christ comes only from the members of His Body that are closest to His own heart.[/QUOTE]
