I think the point is that an apostate never truly believed, although gave the appearance of doing so. An apostate by definition has light but not life.
"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.
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Solomon was not saved before his physical death, as salvation had not yet come. However, he had the promise of salvation, and thus was included in the dead in Christ, the Last.
Paul counted himself as not having been saved yet (a part of the dead in Christ), but also as being "alive and remaining" (alive in the Spirit) having passed from death to life. Which was to be the case for "some" of "this generation" according to Jesus...which actually puts Paul among "the living in Christ."
It is the living in Christ that make up the first resurrection, and the second resurrection are the dead in Christ, for which Jesus said, "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
One falls away from a profession of faith that one once may have had.
But the true believers are saved for eternity:
John 10.28-30:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one."
Unbelief would actually cause one not to be saved in the first place.
Of course. But it's not as if one cannot doubt and then fall away into non belief.
Precious friend, Yes, agree "read it AS IT IS WRITTEN," but also Consider the Next Step,
as previously posted = OUT Of God's Context (see #410) = your v. 13 belongs to
ISRAEL under The Law With "faith PLUS works," NOT To The Body Of Christ!
How about These FOR us, The Body Of CHRIST, Under "GRACE Through faith!":
Read THEM "As They Are Written"? OR "make THEM say what you WANT THEM to say"?
Where is the Scripture that says "God Will UNaccept" those HE HAS:
Accepted In The Beloved, To The Praise Of
The Glory Of HIS GRACE! (Ephesians 1:6 KJB!) = found here, with MANY more:
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/gods-operation-on-all-his-new-born-babes-in-christ.40448/
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
Or perhaps This?:
Where, exactly is your Scripture that teaches "Christ WILL NEVER know"?
(Matthew 7:23) those who HE Plainly And Clearly Teaches:
The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS! 2 Timothy 2:19
How long has HE Known them?
+
HIS Are Chosen/Predestinated/Accepted In The Beloved { SON },
By God, The Father, Before Time Began! Ephesians 1:4-6 =
ALWAYS Known them, Correct?, who are:
Saved By GRACE Through faith! Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-9 = found with MANY more here:
God's Eternal Assurance!
-------------------------------
WAIT! Did we not deal with this false doctrine issue in #333? Clearly Contradictory To
God's HOLY Word, IF "you want it to say" BOTH:
"Christ 'ALWAYS Knew' the ETERNALLY Saved, BUT, when THEY LOST ETERNAL Salvation,
THEN He 'NEVER Knew' them"? Precious friend Renniks, why NO answer? Not in Scripture?
But notwithstanding, in love for God's Truth, I humbly ask:
Got any more out of context/obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses you would like to examine?
I'll be more than glad to do so...
Peace!
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root.
They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
It doesn't say they profess, they truly believe.
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
You cannot abandon what you never had.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
They were actually sanctified and then fell away.
There's two kinds of ex believers in scripture...those who were always tares and those who once truly believed. Those he never knew were tares. They tried to enter through another gate, called " works".
Did I say anything about not being tempted? I said that a genuine child of God does not wish to go back to his former sinful ways. He has repented -- turned away from his former sins and idols. That does not mean that he cannot fall into sin. It means he has no desire to live a sinful lifestyle. And if he does, it should be obvious that he never repented. And God has given His children the Holy Spirit so that they can resist temptation. "Sin SHALL NOT have dominion over you". That is in Scripture.
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No one forfeits salvation since eternal life is a FREE GIFT OF GOD'S GRACE to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Since this person has been born again or born of God, he or she cannot be "unborn".
Some people honestly believe that salvation is merited or earned. But that is complete nonsense. No one could possibly earn salvation, neither can anyone maintain salvation. Justification is by grace through faith, and includes imputed righteousness. Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was imputed to him for righteousness (see Romans 4).
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
FALSE!!! God's plan of salvation began in eternity past before the foundation of the world. Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation ot the world.
Well I will agree that this would be a fundamentalist belief. Not that I totally agree.
The first commandment rang out and loud in the Garden of Eden: "The wages of sin is death!"
Because of what Adam did death became a norm for the creation of God.
You are right, YAHWEH never offered any salvation in the Old Testament BECAUSE He GAVE it to all believers for free:
"For God so loved the world that he gave [NEVER OFFERED] his only Son..." John 3:16
Not sure where you are going with that....
Well I will agree that this would be a fundamentalist belief. Not that I totally agree.
The first commandment rang out and loud in the Garden of Eden: "The wages of sin is death!"
Because of what Adam did death became a norm for the creation of God.
You are right, YAHWEH never offered any salvation in the Old Testament BECAUSE He GAVE it to all believers for free:
"For God so loved the world that he gave [NEVER OFFERED] his only Son..." John 3:16
Not sure where you are going with that....
You are describing the difference between "believing" and "knowing." But one who is in God and God in them, cannot doubt. It is finished.
Keep on knocking. Ask God for confirmation.
How sin can negate eternal life, per Paul:
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says they had heard him preach the gospel, had received it, and stand in it, and they are saved:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved,
If that’s all you read, you’d say it’s a done deal - they heard the gospel, they received it, stand in it, and are saved.
EXCEPT...
Paul’s next words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, IFye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
What was it that Paul taught them that they had to keep in memory that he had preached to them, that can affect their salvation, and cause their receiving the gospel, standing in it, and being saved, to be IN VAIN?
He taught them that he has to control and subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself would end up a CASTAWAY - adokimos in the Greek. - a reprobate (rejected by God as one that failed the test).
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
By subjugation of his body, Paul refers to the flesh, the fleshly desire to sin, i e, commit works of the flesh, as seen in another of Paul’s warnings to the saints, to the brethren against being DECEIVED:
Gal 5:16 This - I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Besides the “castaway” verse about becoming a reprobate himself,
He also warned the brethren to examine themselves to see if they were still in the faith, or had become reprobate (ADOKIMOS).
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says they had heard him preach the gospel, had received it, and stand in it, and they are saved:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved,
If that’s all you read, you’d say it’s a done deal - they heard the gospel, they received it, stand in it, and are saved.
EXCEPT...
Paul’s next words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, IFye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
What was it that Paul taught them that they had to keep in memory that he had preached to them, that can affect their salvation, and cause their receiving the gospel, standing in it, and being saved, to be IN VAIN?
He taught them that he has to control and subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself would end up a CASTAWAY - adokimos in the Greek. - a reprobate (rejected by God as one that failed the test).
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
By subjugation of his body, Paul refers to the flesh, the fleshly desire to sin, i e, commit works of the flesh, as seen in another of Paul’s warnings to the saints, to the brethren against being DECEIVED:
Gal 5:16 This - I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Besides the “castaway” verse about becoming a reprobate himself,
He also warned the brethren to examine themselves to see if they were still in the faith, or had become reprobate (ADOKIMOS).
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Indeed, sin can negate eternal life...not once one has entered into it (and God in you), but before.
As for the writings of Paul, they are true. However, the context is of those on the fence, or rather in the midst of the greatest transitional period the world has ever known, of which Christ was literally the apex between the dead and the living. Jesus also spoke of this referring-- not to all generations, but specifically to "this generation."
As such, we need not be confused about the permanence of salvation, but rather understand the times and that much of the New Testament was preached [intellectually] on both sides of that apex and to both groups (the dead and the living) in one mixed narrative, that, as Paul clarified, "must be rightly divided", as to which group each passage pertains to.
He that has an ear, let him hear.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
So? What is your point?
People can abandon the faith?
People can have an unbelieving heart?
People believe for awhile and then fall away?
Does that APPLY TO YOU?
So? You describe an UN-SAVED person....
What does that have to do with a SAVED person...?
Taken
Well-Known Member
So? You CAN be TEMPTED? (To fall away?)
So? You CAN Believe for awhile and Fall AWAY?
You are describing AN UN-SAVED Person.
Cooper
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For crying out loud. If people abandon their faith, they must have had faith to abandon.
.
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