"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[Taken]

God is unchanging and God’s gifts are irrevocable. That is correct, but

No “but” necessary to follow a truth.

 

[Cooper]

No “but” necessary to follow a truth.

God is unchanging, and God’s gifts are irrevocable to those who believe in and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. That not being the case, God temporally removed His gifts from Israel when the nation spurned the Messiah and the gospel of salvation and instead grafted the Gentiles onto the olive tree. (Romans 11:18) A somewhat similar sequence of events will occur in the future when Israel turns to the Messiah in the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ, and God’s irrevocable gifts will still be there for those who follow The Messiah.

In the meantime, DO NOT turn away from the Lord Jesus Christ, provided you have accepted Him as your Lord and Saviour or, like the Nation of Israel, the same fate will befall the backslider personally.

The Backsliders Fate
(2Pe 2:20-21) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(Eze 3:20-21) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

(Ezekiel 18:24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Heb_4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb_6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Co_10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Jas_5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[Taken]

God is unchanging, and God’s gifts are irrevocable...

Period!

The Scriptural knowledge precedes the Offering of Gods Gift of Salvation for every person and How any person can receive the Gift of Salvation and Once the Gift of Salvation is received, that Gift so Received is Irrevocable. Period.

I am fully aware what applies to me, already having Received Gods Offering of His irrevocable gift of Salvation.

I am fully aware what applies to other men, of IF, or WHEN, and WHY they MAY receive their Salvation, or Not.

Bottom Line:
There is ZERO Scriptural application that applies to ANY man having received their Gift of Salvation and thereafter their Salvation REVOKED.

 

[Cooper]

Period!

The Scriptural knowledge precedes the Offering of Gods Gift of Salvation for every person and How any person can receive the Gift of Salvation and Once the Gift of Salvation is received, that Gift so Received is Irrevocable. Period.

I am fully aware what applies to me, already having Received Gods Offering of His irrevocable gift of Salvation.

I am fully aware what applies to other men, of IF, or WHEN, and WHY they MAY receive their Salvation, or Not.

Bottom Line:
There is ZERO Scriptural application that applies to ANY man having received their Gift of Salvation and thereafter their Salvation REVOKED.

Looks like almost the whole of Israel has had their salvation revoked. Just one example:

And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. (Ezekiel 6:9 KJV)

Only the remnant who follow Jesus will be saved.
.

 

[Taken]

Looks like almost the whole of Israel has had their salvation revoked. Just one example:

And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. (Ezekiel 6:9 KJV)

Only the remnant are left now, and they follow Jesus.
.

Only the remnant are left now....?
God is not to be undermined. His covenant shall be fulfilled.

Rom 11:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[ScottA]

Some of you apparently don't know all there is to know about the birds and the bees...and it shows.

1. When a woman has a child, who's child is it?

It is both the woman's child and the father's child, for the two have become one flesh (in marriage, but also in the conception).
​

2. When a woman has a child with a man, who's child is it?

It is both the woman's child and the father's child, for the two have become one flesh.​

3. When a woman or a man have a child by the spirit of God (when they are born again), who's child is it?

It is both-- for the two have become One spirit.
​

4. When a woman has a child with a man, when is the child one flesh, on the child's birthday, or at the time of conception?

You know the answer.
​

5. Therefore, when a woman or a man have a child by the spirit of God, when is the born again child one with God-- when their flesh dies, or at the time of conception?

Since some of you have already answered incorrectly, the answer is: At the time of conception, when the woman or man are born again of the spirit of God and became One spirit with God.
​

Now then, those of you who have been propagating the error of when salvation (becoming One with God) occurs: Stop. Repent. Change.

 

[Cooper]

Only the remnant are left now....?
God is not to be undermined. His covenant shall be fulfilled.

Rom 11:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We come to the remnant now. These are the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. As you say, God is not to be undermined by the unbelieving wicked, and they will perish. The Messiah on earth, who is Yahweh in heaven, will fulfil His covenant with the remnant when He returns to Zion.

So looking at Romans 11:25-27 the Apostle Paul reveals the mystery of Israel’s salvation, when Jesus comes a second time, not to Bethlehem but Zion when he will take away all evil from the family of Jacob and redeem them from their sins. Only those who say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These are the remnant, and this is what Isaiah referred to when he spoke of the Redeemer coming to Zion and turning transgression away from Jacob.

See below for this in prophesy.

Isa 59:20 Then a redeemer will come to Zion to save the people of Jacob who have turned away from sin.

How will the redeemed be forgiven? What will happen so that their sins can be taken away? The rocks of the altar will be crushed to dust; the statues and altars for worshipping false gods will all be destroyed. The great city will be empty; it will be like a desert. All the people will be gone—they will run away. The city will be like an open pasture. Young cattle will eat grass there. The cattle will eat leaves from the branches of the vines. The vines will become dry, and the branches will break off. Women will use them for firewood, but still people refuse to understand. So God, their Maker, will not comfort them or be kind to them. At that time the LORD will begin separating his people from others. He will begin at the Euphrates River and will gather his people from there to the River of Egypt. You people of Israel will be gathered together one by one. (Isaiah 27:9-12 ERV)

In summary, only those who follow Jesus as their Lord and Saviour will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who deny Jesus will be counted along with the wicked and that includes the cults. The JW's and the rest. I forget who the OSAS people worship, but what is important is that we live a life that is pleasing to the Saviour or live in fear of His wrath.
.

 

[Taken]

We come to the remnant now. These are the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. As you say, God is not to be undermined by the unbelieving wicked, and they will perish. The Messiah on earth, who is Yahweh in heaven, will fulfil His covenant with the remnant when He returns to Zion.

So looking at Romans 11:25-27 the Apostle Paul reveals the mystery of Israel’s salvation, when Jesus comes a second time, not to Bethlehem but Zion when he will take away all evil from the family of Jacob and redeem them from their sins. Only those who say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These are the remnant, and this is what Isaiah referred to when he spoke of the Redeemer coming to Zion and turning transgression away from Jacob.

See below for this in prophesy.

Isa 59:20 Then a redeemer will come to Zion to save the people of Jacob who have turned away from sin.

How will the redeemed be forgiven? What will happen so that their sins can be taken away? The rocks of the altar will be crushed to dust; the statues and altars for worshipping false gods will all be destroyed. The great city will be empty; it will be like a desert. All the people will be gone—they will run away. The city will be like an open pasture. Young cattle will eat grass there. The cattle will eat leaves from the branches of the vines. The vines will become dry, and the branches will break off. Women will use them for firewood, but still people refuse to understand. So God, their Maker, will not comfort them or be kind to them. At that time the LORD will begin separating his people from others. He will begin at the Euphrates River and will gather his people from there to the River of Egypt. You people of Israel will be gathered together one by one. (Isaiah 27:9-12 ERV)

In summary, only those who follow Jesus as their Lord and Saviour will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who deny Jesus will be counted along with the wicked and that includes the cults. The JW's and the rest. I forget who the OSAS people worship, but what is important is that we live a life that is pleasing to the Saviour or live in fear of His wrath.
.

From the beginning of mankind to this day men have been dividing themselves, and God has been keeping Records and Books of evidence of every mans Standing; With or Without God.

* Many mens souls With God have entered into [/B] Gods Kingdom of Heaven [/B] and shall continue to do so Through much of the Last Days of Great Tribulation.
* Some shall enter into the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.
* Many shall enter into the everlasting Kingdoms of the World, of our Lord God and His Christ.
* Many shall forever be; “as their heart desired” excluded from Gods Heavenly, Earthly and Everlasting Kingdoms of the World.

* What you wonder and disagree with and by whatever name men call themselves and by whatever name you call men, is NOT the Deciding Factor of which individuals WILL BE with or without the Lord God, or WHICH Kingdoms individuals will or will not enter into.

It is pleasing unto God Himself “According to His ORDER and WAY” that ALL who ARE or SHALL BE WITH Him, ARE Prepared For the Manifestation of His Redemption.

BTW...NOT “only” those who follow Jesus as their Lord and Saviour HAVE entered, ARE entering the Kingdom of Heaven.
What you generally call “cults” (translating to people you disagree with), JW’S, and the general rest, (translating to people you disagree with), and Men already SAVED, ie OSAS...(which you stand in conflict, disagreeing with such men, but agreeing with their position)....is moot.

The remnant are those mortals who shall occupy the Earth during the Days of Jesus Kingdom On Earth.

BTW...
The Lord raptures up those in Christ.
The Lamb shall be with the Tribes called to Mount Zion
The Son of Man with Power Shall return to Earth.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Trusting Gods Irrevocable Gift of Salvation

Bottom Line:
There is ZERO Scriptural application that applies to ANY man having received their Gift of Salvation and thereafter their Salvation REVOKED.

NON-STOP about "works/following/obeying/repenting/rituals/sacraments/mediating men, UNTIL your Very LAST breath on earth" OR ELSE God's FREE GIFT Of Irrevocable Eternal Life "WILL BE Revoked" eh? And I Mistakenly THOUGHT I "ran" from Romanism over 40 Years ago!!

So GLAD I met The Wonderful Saviour, and received ETERNAL Forgiveness
By HIS GRACE And MERCY!!! PEACE ever since!!!! AND So MUCH More! = Let's see IF:

critics can REVOKE All 12 DOZEN Of THESE Plain And Clear Scriptures?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

Of course, THIS KJB "Biblical" cult that I am in...

 

[GEN2REV]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self attached fruitless branches are cut off.

In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

That's a nice, full explanation of your opinion of OSAS and how you believe John 15:2 & 6 do not contradict it. Unfortunately, you are using all extra-biblical writings and opinions of men to construct your point.

Only scripture can define and validate scripture.

John 15:2 & 6 clearly state that those IN CHRIST can be lost if they do not abide in Him.

Your argument is that IN CHRIST doesn't mean what it appears to mean. This is age-old redefinition of scripture; a tactic as old as the dirt. "Well, it says that, but what it really means is ... "

God wrote the Bible. God made every doctrine clear. God repeats, and defines, doctrine He knew would some day be twisted by man to seem unclear. That is why He inspired Peter to write 2 Peter 1:20.

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man is IN CHRIST, he is a new creature (creation): old things are passed away, behold all things are become new. (Saved, sanctified, regenerated)

Romans 6:13 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into His death?" (New creation - resurrected, saved, sanctified, regenerated)

John 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: ..." (saved, sanctified, regenerated - taken away by the Father.)
John 15:6 " If a man abide(stays, remains, lives) not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (abiding - remaining, staying, living [you can't remain where you never were to begin with])

These are those who have been saved, sanctified, regenerated and are resurrected IN CHRIST. And they are being removed by the Father and cast into the fire for destruction.

These verses speak for themselves.

 

[Wynona]

By definition salvation (being the gift of eternal life), is forever.

Still, there are many who are confused by the ongoing sin of people who claim to be saved. This is a great misunderstanding-- but it does not mean that salvation can be lost. And yes, there are many scriptures that can be cherry picked and presented to argue the point...but that does not take anyone who is actually saved, having been born [again] of the spirit of God, out of His hand, or that they can loose their salvation, because: It is no longer you who live, but God who lives-- salvation means you gave you life to God...and God is forever.

Yes, there are many ways you can ho hum your way around thinking about actually giving your life to God, but if and when you totally do surrender your life to God and give it to Him, it is finished: You are forever "in God" and He in you--and He is forever.

"God is the same yesterday, today, and forever."​

So...now the matter of ongoing sin:

Just as Peter, having been "washed clean" by Christ, was embodied by Satan, causing Jesus to say "Get behind me Satan" to Peter...after we are born again of the spirit of God we can sin in the flesh without loosing our salvation-- Why? Because "we are alive and remain" in the world. This is the stumbling block that causes people to believe they can lose their salvation. But, again, this is a misunderstanding of what actually occurs. At no other time in history, not even those times when most of the scriptures were written, have people died and lived on in the flesh. These are those times...and the terms are different. And yes, it is written of in the scriptures-- If you don't know of them, keep searching, nocking, and asking.

Nonetheless, if you are saved, having been born again of the spirit of God, it is no longer you who lives, but God who lives...and He is forever. While you remain in the world...your old flesh is still subject to death and decay..and sin. But that body of flesh is passing away, just as all the world is passing away...and this is why we are counselled to remain faithful to the end--because it is as if we have been left in the grave, in death...without which we could not survive without faith and the knowledge that it is no longer we who live, but God who lives in us.

And we are here to serve--that is why we are left in the world...not to act out of our fleshly old bodies, but rather, to walk in the newness of life-- that life we have been given in the Spirit. Walk in the spirit.

So, yes, it is a daily labor to keep the old flesh under subordination of the spirit of God. But it is in Him that we have the strength to do so.

Until the End.

So we are to assume that Scriptures against eternal security are "cherry picked" and just get carried away with what you are saying?

Can you defend your position with Scripture?

There are a lot of people promoting this idea that you can't lose your salvation. But it's still not a biblical idea.

If it is, why not show us through the Scriptures?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So we are to assume that Scriptures against eternal security are "cherry picked" and just get carried away with what you are saying?

Can you defend your position with Scripture?

There are a lot of people promoting this idea that you can't lose your salvation. But it's still not a biblical idea.

If it is, why not show us through the Scriptures?

it is Biblical. But first you have to admit that you think false converts exist, otherwise scripture wont do you any good with your easy believism.

 

[GEN2REV]

it is Biblical. But first you have to admit that you think false converts exist, otherwise scripture wont do you any good with your easy believism.

Sometimes it really does save some class and some face to just admit you're mistaken when you're floating in despair for a relevant argument.

Easy believism

That's good stuff. Think of that yourself, did ya?

What is this false converts nonsense you are hanging onto for dear life? Is God ever fooled by false anything? Of course not so John 15:2 & 6 are immune to that approach. God sees the heart.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Sometimes it really does save some class and some face to just admit you're mistaken when you're floating in despair for a relevant argument.

Easy believism

That's good stuff. Think of that yourself, did ya?

What is this false converts nonsense you are hanging onto for dear life? Is God ever fooled by false anything? Of course not so John 15:2 & 6 are immune to that approach. God sees the heart.

and there it is. No such thing as false converts?? Please explain simon the magician then. He was a false convert.

but i gotta ask, how many times did you get saved today?? Since “you people” seem to think you can lose your salvation at the drop of a hat, and you sin everyday, how many times do you have to get saved?? You do realize you sin every single day right??

 

[Wynona]

and there it is. No such thing as false converts?? Please explain simon the magician then. He was a false convert.

but i gotta ask, how many times did you get saved today?? Since “you people” seem to think you can lose your salvation at the drop of a hat, and you sin everyday, how many times do you have to get saved?? You do realize you sin every single day right??

By the grace of God, no I don't sin everyday. I used to, even as a believer. But God can and will deliver us from sin.

Because He loves us and knows the destruction that sin can bring on our lives.

It's the fact that He loves and would have us be as He is, that makes it possible for our psst sins to be forgiven and for us to walk in the newness of life.

The Bible says we all have sin, yes. But we need not continue in sin. Sin can be a past thing that we overcome through Christ. In Christ we can overcome sin and put it to death.

Also, Im not sure how we got to the straw man of losing your salvation every time a sin occurs.

 

[farouk]

By the grace of God, no I don't sin everyday. I used to, even as a believer. But God can and will deliver us from sin.

Because He loves us and knows the destruction that sin can bring on our lives.

It's the fact that He loves and would have us be as He is, that makes it possible for our psst sins to be forgiven and for us to walk in the newness of life.

The Bible says we all have sin, yes. But we need not continue in sin. Sin can be a past thing that we overcome through Christ. In Christ we can overcome sin and put it to death.

Also, Im not sure how we got to the straw man of losing your salvation every time a sin occurs.

I do think we are failing our perfect God all the time, in one way or another. When we consider how glorious He is in holiness, we do need an ever deepening sense of our moment by moment reliance on His grace, even as we rest in the finished work of Christ.

 

[Wynona]

it is Biblical. But first you have to admit that you think false converts exist, otherwise scripture wont do you any good with your easy believism.

If it's biblical, I want to see Scriptures quoted.

I do like the simplicity of "Go and sin no more."

Im not sure I get what you mean by easy believism. What is that?

 

[Wynona]

I do think we are failing our perfect God all the time, in one way or another. When we consider how glorious He is in holiness, we do need an ever deepening sense of our moment by moment reliance on His grace, even as we rest in the finished work of Christ.

This is, in a nutshell, what I was taught to believe by multiple educated theologians and pastors.

But think about it. If we're failing God constantly, is this not a problem? Is this what it means to be a Christian? To fail all the time? To disappoint God always and grace just covers it up?

Is it God's will for us to be failures? Or for us to go on in maturity and be overcomers? For sin to have no dominion over us?

 

[Cooper]

and there it is. No such thing as false converts?? Please explain simon the magician then. He was a false convert.

but i gotta ask, how many times did you get saved today?? Since “you people” seem to think you can lose your salvation at the drop of a hat, and you sin everyday, how many times do you have to get saved?? You do realize you sin every single day right??

For which we are forgiven. The Lord's Prayer. No problem, the Lord is gracious and kind to forgive our sins. The concern is for the believer who at a later date renounces their faith and turns their back on God, never to return, despite the Good Shepherd seeking them out. The faithful are always saved, no matter what.
.

 

[farouk]

This is, in a nutshell, what I was taught to believe by multiple educated theologians and pastors.

But think about it. If we're failing God constantly, is this not a problem? Is this what it means to be a Christian? To fail all the time? To disappoint God always and grace just covers it up?

Is it God's will for us to be failures? Or for us to go on in maturity and be overcomers? For sin to have no dominion over us?

I don't believe in the so called "sinless perfection" doctrine of some Pentecostals, which is not held either by a large proportion of Bible-believing Christians. We rest in Christ's perfection and in His completely satisfactory work at the Cross for time and eternity.

Perhaps you've heard the humorous saying - but with a serious point to it:

"I used to be conceited, but now I'm absolutely perfect".....