SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Earburner]

They asked, "How may WE work the works of God?" Jesus answers, "'God's works' He would have YOU to do is for YOU to believe in Me."

I suppose different translations continue to cause confusion.
The ONLY single work of God that we should DO, is to have faith in the sacrificial work of Christ, of whom God has sent. Apart from that, there is no OTHER requirement.
The thief on the cross attests to it.

 

[GracePeace]

In light of James 2:14-26 no, you are not wrong.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The verses are not about judging our salvation, but rather our faith in God's ability to provide through us, the needs of/for helping others, when He personally brings it to our attention.

Such is the case for judging faith, but never does works judge the Gift of our eternal salvation.

Don't you agree that James 2 is simply calling the Christians to repentance--since he calls them "adulteresses against God", affirming that his audience is already "married" to God (ie, they are believers) in James 4?

 

[GracePeace]

I suppose different translations continue to cause confusion.
The ONLY single work of God that we should DO, is to have faith in the sacrificial work of Christ, of whom God has sent. Apart from that, there is no OTHER requirement.
The thief on the cross attests to it.

So, which "translation" of Galatians 6:6-10, or Romans 2:5-16, or any of the other verses I cited, DOES NOT teach that eternal life will be repaid doers of good?

 

[GracePeace]

I suppose different translations continue to cause confusion.
The ONLY single work of God that we should DO, is to have faith in the sacrificial work of Christ, of whom God has sent. Apart from that, there is no OTHER requirement.
The thief on the cross attests to it.

That very same book ALSO teaches "if you know these things, blessed are you if you do them" (you are NOT "blessed" if you DON'T), and "I know the command of God is eternal life, so, I speak and do as I'm told", and "we must work the works of Him Who sent me" and "the Father works and I work" and "no greater love has anyone than to lay his life down for his friends--you are my friends if you do whatever I tell you" (Jesus's sacrificed life is only effective for those who obey Him in their actions) and "the day is coming when all who are in the grave will come forth--those who have done good to eternal life".

 

[Earburner]

So, are you saying you agree with those verses I raised--ie, that eternal life is repaid doers of good?

I am saying that you are not wrong in regards to the factions of faith and works.

Good works alone cannot bring to us faith for our salvation, but faith alone does bring to us good works through our salvation.

It's the parable about the good tree and the corrupt tree.
Mat. 7 [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Earburner]

So, which "translation" of Galatians 6:6-10, or Romans 2:5-16, or any of the other verses I cited, DOES NOT teach that eternal life will be repaid doers of good?

I am trying to show that good works by doers of good, can never receive the Gift of Eternal life on that basis.

 

[Earburner]

That very same book ALSO teaches "if you know these things, blessed are you if you do them" (you are NOT "blessed" if you DON'T), and "I know the command of God is eternal life, so, I speak and do as I'm told", and "we must work the works of Him Who sent me" and "the Father works and I work" and "no greater love has anyone than to lay his life down for his friends--you are my friends if you do whatever I tell you" (Jesus's sacrificed life is only effective for those who obey Him in their actions) and "the day is coming when all who are in the grave will come forth--those who have done good to eternal life".

And the "good" that one will have done, so as to be resurrected unto eternal life, is John 3:18 and Rom. 8:8-9. To believe in Jesus, having the Gift His Holy Spirit. That is the only requirement.

 

[Earburner]

Don't you agree that James 2 is simply calling the Christians to repentance--since he calls them "adulteresses against God", affirming that his audience is already "married" to God (ie, they are believers) in James 4?

James 4:1-8 is about exhorting Christians who are saved, but are walking/living in their fleshly mind, and not the mind/Spirit of Christ. They had to be warned that they could be on the road whereby they could depart from faith in the Living Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

I am saying that you are not wrong in regards to the factions of faith and works.

Good works alone cannot bring to us faith for our salvation, but faith alone does bring to us good works through our salvation.

It's the parable about the good tree and the corrupt tree.
Mat. 7 [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

So, you do not agree that eternal life is repaid doers of good according to the passages I cited? What DO those passages say?

 

[GracePeace]

And the "good" that one will have done, so as to be resurrected unto eternal life, is John 3:18 and Rom. 8:8-9. To believe in Jesus, having the Gift His Holy Spirit. That is the only requirement.

That isn't what the passages I cited teach.

John's Gospel mentions SEVERAL things that are necessary for eternal life--not just one. You believe one snippet of that Gospel, I prefer to believe it all.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[GracePeace]

I am trying to show that good works by doers of good, can never receive the Gift of Eternal life on that basis.

Romans 6 says eternal life is a gift because slavery to righteousness is a gift--eternal life being a "gift" is only as a RESULT of slavery to righteousness being a gift.

THAT SAID, Paul also says "work out your salvation"--the reality is that we are slaves of righteousness, but if we walk after the flesh, instead of walking after the Spirit, we will die and not live (Ro 8:12,13).

 

[GracePeace]

I am trying to show that good works by doers of good, can never receive the Gift of Eternal life on that basis.

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

It is upon us, as Christians, to believe EVERYTHING taught in Scripture, not merely the snippets Martin Luther liked.

 

[Taken]

You actually never addressed the verses which I raised, which teach, clearly, men will be repaid eternal life,

You addressed “MEN IN GENERAL”.
I addressed specifically WHICH MEN shall be given eternal Life….and HOW….and WHY.

not just ambiguous "rewards", for doing good--

Rewards are NOT ambiguous.
Rewards are SPECIFIC….ie Crowns
Rewards are FOR SPECIFIC “works” a man does.
The SPECIFIC “works” are “works” that reveal a mans “FAITHFULNESS to God”, during that mans Physical Life ON Earth.

A mans FAITHFULNESS to God…IS SPECIFIC regarding “A” man and “that mans” RELATIONSHIP “with” God.

Aside from “A” mans relationship “WITH” God, man routinely has Relationships with OTHERS (while ALIVE ON this Earth), who are also manKIND’s of beings.

When “A” man does “good works” toward or for ANOTHER manKIND of being…
* Blessings are given that man FROM GOD.
* Blessings MAY ALSO be given that man FROM the other man.
………those are “NOT” Gods “REWARDS”….CROWNS.
………the Behaviors BETWEEN Man and Man, do NOT “earn” a man Gods “REWARDS”.

Gods “REWARDS” are “GIFTS”….specific, “GIFTS” for “A” man’s “FAITHFULNESS” TO God.

Surely you Understand the difference BETWEEN:
A mans Relationship with man-KIND.
And
A mans Relationship with God..
Do you understand?

Can a man REWARD a man with:
Eternal Life, with Incorruptibility, with Righteousness, with Glory, Eternal Rejoicing?

Uh…no.

However God CAN and SHALL.
Expressly BECAUSE of a mans Faithful Relationship “WITH God”.

Glory to God,
Taken











and, if they don't do good, they're storing up wrath for themselves, instead, and will die and not live.

I apologize--I am a simple person who just accepts what he reads in Scripture.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Earburner]

Romans 6 says eternal life is a gift because slavery to righteousness is a gift--eternal life being a "gift" is only as a RESULT of slavery to righteousness being a gift.

THAT SAID, Paul also says "work out your salvation"--the reality is that we are slaves of righteousness, but if we walk after the flesh, instead of walking after the Spirit, we will die and not live (Ro 8:12,13).

OUR salvation is a FREE GIFT from God the Father Himself, and He (Jesus) is given to us without God repenting THAT He did.
That GIFT is Jesus Christ Himself, who is of Elohim, being that of The Father and Son, together as ONE GOD. John 1:1, 14; 3:16.
Now, for every person who RECEIVES The Person of Jesus Christ into their being, they are literally SAVED from eternal death. Rev. 3:20.

The ONLY way that anyone can lose their FREE GIFT of salvation, once received, is by the act of committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God, who DWELLS within us.
Heb. 10
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [despised] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
> For THAT ONE SIN, there is NEVER forgiveness from God. However, ALL OTHER SINS, are forgiven.
Mat. 12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
> And therefore will have forfeited the GIFT GIVEN to them, "wherewith they WERE SANCTIFIED [made to be holy, aka set apart for His purposes]".

 

[Earburner]

That isn't what the passages I cited teach.

John's Gospel mentions SEVERAL things that are necessary for eternal life--not just one. You believe one snippet of that Gospel, I prefer to believe it all.

So then, by the Grace of God alone, through faith in Jesus Christ, God HAS saved you.
Evidently, you don't believe that of God, but rather believe that by you doing good works, you shall save yourself, by way of another gospel of your belief.

To believe in Jesus, is to TRUST Him at His word.
Heb. 13
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Through our faith in the shed blood of Jesus, we ARE sanctified.
The works of OUR flesh, whether good or bad, sanctifies NOTHING!

 

[Earburner]

Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

The Gift of the Holy Spirit of God to usward, IS THE very vehicle of the GIFT of Eternal life.
"Well doing" does not and will not ever bring to us the Gift eternal life, because the Gift is FREELY GIVEN to all who trust in Jesus for their salvation.

I don't think you fully understand 1 John 5:12-13; Rom. 8:8-9; Rev. 3:20; John 11:26.
1 John
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come IN TO him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[21] To him that overcometh [death**] will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

** John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

> So then, DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus, or are you in DOUBT, and therefore choose to believe "another gospel"??

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Well, you should accept what Jesus teaches in John 15... those that do not abide IN Him bearing good fruit... are cut off the vine. God is not mocked, What we sow is what we reap.,.. to say otherwise is to mock God.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Those being disobedient after having been born again... will not be spending eternity with the Lord.
The whole purpose of the Gospel is to turn man from the power of the devil to the power of God so they can receive forgiveness of sins!

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

Not to be just forgiven of sin... but to actually be DELIVERED from walking in sin and in STOP SINNING!

The bottom line is those that do not turn away from their sin, don't go to Heaven.
We turn away from our sin thru the Lord as we can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13)

So no, walking in good works in not something done in our own ability, the Lord empowers us IF we abide IN Him and those not walking with the Lord are being disobedient and are not walking in the good works we have been ordained to walk in as we see in Ephesians 2:10

It's very important that we look at the whole counsel of the Lord to get His ways of being and doing right.

 

[GracePeace]

You addressed “MEN IN GENERAL”.
I addressed specifically WHICH MEN shall be given eternal Life….and HOW….and WHY.



Rewards are NOT ambiguous.
Rewards are SPECIFIC….ie Crowns
Rewards are FOR SPECIFIC “works” a man does.
The SPECIFIC “works” are “works” that reveal a mans “FAITHFULNESS to God”, during that mans Physical Life ON Earth.

A mans FAITHFULNESS to God…IS SPECIFIC regarding “A” man and “that mans” RELATIONSHIP “with” God.

Aside from “A” mans relationship “WITH” God, man routinely has Relationships with OTHERS (while ALIVE ON this Earth), who are also manKIND’s of beings.

When “A” man does “good works” toward or for ANOTHER manKIND of being…
* Blessings are given that man FROM GOD.
* Blessings MAY ALSO be given that man FROM the other man.
………those are “NOT” Gods “REWARDS”….CROWNS.
………the Behaviors BETWEEN Man and Man, do NOT “earn” a man Gods “REWARDS”.

Gods “REWARDS” are “GIFTS”….specific, “GIFTS” for “A” man’s “FAITHFULNESS” TO God.

Surely you Understand the difference BETWEEN:
A mans Relationship with man-KIND.
And
A mans Relationship with God..
Do you understand?

Can a man REWARD a man with:
Eternal Life, with Incorruptibility, with Righteousness, with Glory, Eternal Rejoicing?

Uh…no.

However God CAN and SHALL.
Expressly BECAUSE of a mans Faithful Relationship “WITH God”.

Glory to God,
Taken











and, if they don't do good, they're storing up wrath for themselves, instead, and will die and not live.

I apologize--I am a simple person who just accepts what he reads in Scripture.

Lots of talking, still nowhere do you address those verses I raised proving eternal life is repaid doers of good.

Try again. Just quote the verses I cited, and offer a better interpretation.

 

[GracePeace]

OUR salvation is a FREE GIFT from God the Father Himself, and He (Jesus) is given to us without God repenting THAT He did.
That GIFT is Jesus Christ Himself, who is of Elohim, being that of The Father and Son, together as ONE GOD. John 1:1, 14; 3:16.
Now, for every person who RECEIVES The Person of Jesus Christ into their being, they are literally SAVED from eternal death. Rev. 3:20.

The ONLY way that anyone can lose their FREE GIFT of salvation, once received, is by the act of committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God, who DWELLS within us.
Heb. 10
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [despised] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
> For THAT ONE SIN, there is NEVER forgiveness from God. However, ALL OTHER SINS, are forgiven.
Mat. 12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
> And therefore will have forfeited the GIFT GIVEN to them, "wherewith they WERE SANCTIFIED [made to be holy, aka set apart for His purposes]".

Address the verses I cited, which prove eternal life is repaid doers of good, and offer a more plausible interpretation.