Run that by me again, Moses

[Matthias]

“And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘You have seen all that Yahweh did before your eyes in the lanf of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God.’”

(Deuteronomy 29:2-6, LSB)

Moses didn’t say in verse 6 “in order that you might know that he is Yahweh is your God”. Moses said in verse 6 “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”.

What is Moses telling them / us in verse 6?

 

[Matthias]

Moses is saying that he, Moses, is Yahweh.

But Moses isn’t telling them / us that he, Moses, is literally Yahweh.

Moses wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.

Atheists sometimes point to this verse as an example of the Bible containing errors, but this isn’t an error.

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges provides a comment on v. 5 which alerts us to what is happening.

“… here the speaker’s personality, is merged in that of the Deity; …”

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/deuteronomy/291.htm

Moses is God’s shaliah - Yahweh’s authorized agent / representative. Yahweh is speaking in Moses. Moses is the mediator; he is Yahweh’s ambassador. He speaks with the authority of Yahweh. When we see and hear Moses in this actin it is as if we are seeing Yahweh.

Moses wasn’t making himself Yahweh. Yahweh made Moses Yahweh to them / us.

A duly appointed shaliah is as the person himself who appointed him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

“And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘You have seen all that Yahweh did before your eyes in the lanf of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God.’”

(Deuteronomy 29:2-6, LSB)

Moses didn’t say in verse 6 “in order that you might know that he is Yahweh is your God”. Moses said in verse 6 “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”.

What is Moses telling them / us in verse 6?

Moses appears to be quoting Yahweh.

 

[Matthias]

Moses appears to be quoting Yahweh.

Some translations render it that way, but doing so obscures what was happening. They‘re coddling us.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

This is what stands out to me. Not being given a heart to know what? Or eyes to see what? Or ears to hear what? John 5:36-47 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. [37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. [38] And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not. [39] Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. [40] And you will not come to me, that you might have life. [41] I receive not honour from men. [42] But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you. [43] I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. [44] How can you believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that comes from God only? [45] Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuses you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. [46] For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me. [47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?
^so confusing. If I had to guess if you believed not Moses, how shall you believe My Words…I would say only through God removing the heart of stone, and giving you a new heart to know there is only One God the Father, and only one Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 8:5-7 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, [6]yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. [7] However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak(ought not the strong support the weak?), is defiled.
If they had Moses and believed him not, how then shall they believe the Words of Christ? Considering His Words are Spirit…do we need to be given ears to hear (God opening the ears of those deaf) and eyes to see (God opening the eyes of the blind-go tell John the blind see, and the deaf hear, and those captive go free). If not then why 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Going back to: This is what stands out to me. Not being given a heart to know what? Or eyes to see what? Or ears to hear what?
With…even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away(now you know what prevents until it be taken out of the way, destroyed by the brightness of coming of Christ). —to see and hear what?

 

[Matthias]

This is what stands out to me. Not being given a heart to know what? Or eyes to see what? Or ears to hear what? John 5:36-47 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. [37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. [38] And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not. [39] Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. [40] And you will not come to me, that you might have life. [41] I receive not honour from men. [42] But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you. [43] I am come in my Father's name, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. [44] How can you believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that comes from God only? [45] Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuses you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. [46] For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me. [47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?
^so confusing. If I had to guess if you believed not Moses, how shall you believe My Words…I would say only through God removing the heart of stone, and giving you a new heart to know there is only One God the Father, and only one Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 8:5-7 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, [6]yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. [7] However, not all people have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
If they had Moses and believed him not, how then shall they believe the Words of Christ? Considering His Words are Spirit…do we need to be given ears to hear (God opening the ears of those deaf) and eyes to see (God opening the eyes of the blind). If not then why 2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. [15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. [17] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [18] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Going back to: This is what stands out to me. Not being given a heart to know what? Or eyes to see what? Or ears to hear what?
With…even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. —to see and hear what?

That’s good and true but it doesn’t address the important point I was making in the OP about agency.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Some translations render it that way, but doing so obscures what was happening. They‘re coddling us.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Moses mistakenly believed he was Yahweh? I don't think that is likely.

 

[Matthias]

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Moses mistakenly believed he was Yahweh? I don't think that is likely.

Thank you. No, I’m not at all suggesting that Moses mistakenly believed he was Yahweh. You put it gently when you said that is unlikely. It would have made him a lunatic.

”In Jewish law, a shaliah … (literally ‘emissary’ or ‘messenger’) is a legal agent. In practice, ‘the shaliah for a person is as the person himself.’ Accordingly, a shaliah performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.”

Shaliah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyone could have quoted Yahweh. This incident isn’t that.

Just as the Pharisees demanded that Jesus tell them by what authority he was speaking and acting, the Israelites had questioned by what authority Moses was speaking and acting. In both cases, Jesus and Moses spoke and acted by the authority of Yahweh.

 

[Matthias]

By introducing Jesus into the discussion, we’ve now moved beyond the OP and into Moses typology.

 

[Wrangler]

Just as the Pharisees demanded that Jesus tell them by what authority he was speaking and acting, the Israelites had questioned by what authority Moses was speaking and acting. In both cases, Jesus and Moses spoke and acted by the authority of Yahweh.

Yet, there is no verse where Jesus says likewise, "“in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”. Interesting.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That’s good and true but it doesn’t address the important point I was making in the OP about agency.

To me it does answer it in the significance of what was not seen or heard but to be revealed in Christ? Because it sounds like there will be varied opinions regarding when Moses is read for the vail which is done away with in Christ, still remains over heart. …call it over the mind or over the heart the foreskin still remains which foreskin is removed by the circumcision of Christ. Point is…when the vail remains, out of that is blind and deaf.

I get atheist point to that concerning Moses as a contradiction. I’m been listening to atheist arguments lately saying all the contradictions in the bible. One commonality they have (Imo) is they still take it all literal and interpret it by the carnal mind. I’ll give you an example. I listened to one speaking on rape in the bible and when a woman cry’s out or does not cry out, whether she is in the city or whether she is in the field. Atheist view it much of the same as the majority of Christian’s. I don’t say that to be ugly but as only an observation that Atheist do share that in common with the majority of the church. The woman who cries out or does not cry to them is a literal woman in a moment of time which they say it’s horrendous of (their supposed, Christian)God to speak on whether a woman cries out or not. In that one instance, in a literal sense…atheist argue “your God only cares about whether there is crying out of a woman being raped”. They miss Abel’s blood cried out from the ground for generations, yet Christ’s blood speaks of better things. There is a different cry than a literal one….a cry that transcends time and the literal. But atheist, same as it is often said, it’s interpreted by the carnal mind. yet atheist have a great question…do y’all serve a flesh God who teaches murder, genocide, rape, and slavery?? The same God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? Who is He? Is what atheist ask! I do think your question hinges on if the atheists reads it by the carnal mind, then yes they point and ask, isn’t this a contradiction? Like tons they read of God. Doubtfully you will fix or give them an answer they will receive, if all they care to see is through the carnal mind. The carnal mind which in a sense says they are better than God because they have more morals without Him. <I hear that repeated by atheist.

I see you said bringing Jesus into it, goes beyond the OP. I’m confused by that because How else will there be any response to atheist concerning the OP …as if there is some way to clarify to the atheist…without bringing Jesus Christ unto the OP?

 

[Matthias]

Yet, there is no verse where Jesus says likewise, "“in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”. Interesting.

Trinitarians, binitarians and even many unitarians say that Jesus implies that he is literally claiming to be Yahweh. In order to do that, they have to remove Jesus from the constraints of his own Jewish religion.

You will likely remember the video clip I’ve provided of Dr. Witherington (a trinitarian scholar) acknowledging and explaining in a lecture why “Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh.”

Jesus is functionally Yahweh. He does what his God and Father - Yahweh - does. That is a very different thing from Jesus is literally Yahweh.

This relates to the importance of knowing church history.

 

[Matthias]

To me it does answer it in the significance of what was not seen or heard but to be revealed in Christ? Because it sounds like there will be varied opinions regarding when Moses is read for the vail which is done away with in Christ, still remains over heart. …call it over the mind or over the heart the foreskin still remains which foreskin is removed by the circumcision of Christ. Point is…when the vail remains, out of that is blind and deaf.

I get atheist point to that concerning Moses as a contradiction. I’m been listening to atheist arguments lately saying all the contradictions in the bible. One commonality they have (Imo) is they still take it all literal and interpret it by the carnal mind. I’ll give you an example. I listened to one speaking in rape in the bible and when a woman cry’s out or does not cry out, whether she is in the city or whether she is in the field. Atheist view it much of the same as the majority of Christian’s. I don’t say that to be ugly but as only an observation that Atheist do share that in common with the majority of the church. The woman who cries out or does not cry to them is a literal woman in a moment of time which they say it’s horrendous of (their supposed, Christian)God to speak on whether a woman cries out or not. In that one instance, in a literal sense…atheist argue “your God only cares about whether there is crying out of a woman being raped”. They miss Abel’s blood cried out from the ground for generations, yet Christ’s blood speaks of better things. There is a different cry than a literal one….a cry that transcends time and the literal. But atheist, same as it is often said, it’s interpreted by the carnal mind. yet atheist have a great question…do y’all serve a flesh God who teaches murder, genocide, rape, and slavery?? The same God who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? Who is He? Is what atheist ask! I do think your question hinges on if the atheists read it by the carnal mind, then yes they point and ask, isn’t this a contradiction? Like tons they read of God. Doubtfully you will fix or give them an answer they will receive, if all they care to see is through the carnal mind. The carnal mind which in a sense says they are better than God because they have morals without Him.

That’s fine. The point of the OP: Moses speaks as if he himself is Yahweh himself.

So does Jesus.

Agency is the key to understanding them and to understanding Yahweh.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is functionally Yahweh. He does what his God and Father - Yahweh - does. That is a very different thing from Jesus is literally Yahweh.

This relates to the importance of knowing church history.

Agency is a common human way of dealing with things. People in power have many agents doing their bidding. The agent is not the principle. This notion of agents does not only apply to religion.

 

[Matthias]

“When he had come into the temple area, the chief priests and the elders of the people approached him as he was teaching and said, ‘By what authority are you doing these things? And who gave you this authority?’”

(Matthew 21:23, NABRE)

They asked the right question.

What is the answer to their question? (Jesus didn’t answer it directly but left it to them to reason out for themselves.)

The answer: By the authority of Yahweh. Yahweh gave Jesus this authority.

Listen to, believe and obey Jesus. They refused to.

Moses typology. Moses prefigures Jesus.

Jesus is the new Moses.

 

[Lambano]

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. -2 Corinthians 5:20

Same concept. In an era where instantaneous communications did not exist and messages were limited to travel speeds, the presbeuo (ambassador) had the authority to speak and act on behalf of the king.

The concept of agency is also in the term "prophet" (speaker for God) and "apostle" (literally, "a sent one")

 

[Matthias]

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.”

(John 5:30, KJV)

It’s unthinkable that Yahweh himself would ever say, “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

It’s easily thinkable (and entirely reasonable) that someone, some self, other than Yahweh himself would say, “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

Moses fits comfortably in our minds as someone sent by Yahweh and is representing Yahweh can say it. Jesus not as comfortably for many; but he was sent by Yahweh, perfectly represents Yahweh, and said it.

P.S.

I remember the first time I saw a book about Jesus titled God’s Final Envoy. As a Jewish monotheist, I think of, and understand Jesus of Nazareth to be, Yahweh’s final envoy.

 

[Pearl]

“And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘You have seen all that Yahweh did before your eyes in the lanf of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day Yahweh has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God.’”

(Deuteronomy 29:2-6, LSB)

Moses didn’t say in verse 6 “in order that you might know that he is Yahweh is your God”. Moses said in verse 6 “in order that you might know that I am Yahweh your God”.

What is Moses telling them / us in verse 6?

I think either you have read it wrongly or your translation got it wrong. It is actually Moses quoting God, which probably other people have already told you.

Verses 5-6 - Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”

 

[Rockerduck]

Yahweh told Moses what to say and write down.

Deuteronomy 29:1 -These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

 

[Matthias]

I think either you have read it wrongly or your translation got it wrong. It is actually Moses quoting God, which probably other people have already told you.

Verses 5-6 - Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”

Thank you. You didn’t identify the translation you’re quoting but it is an example of a translation which I pointed out renders the passage as Moses quoting Yahweh. The phrase that you placed in bold makes that abundantly clear, but that is a translator‘s decision. It isn’t what the Hebrew actually says.