Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Johann]

If by men you mean Jesus, Paul, John, James, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, no, I don't need to rethink that. You are ignoring LARGE swaths of Scripture and focusing on one phrase out of the context of a passage to prop up your theology.

Careful brother.
J.

 

[reformed1689]

No, I adore Paul. I do hate what unstable men do to his words.

Unstable? Oh brother. Can we cut the ad hominem please? So you agree with Paul then that there are some who are created as vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? There are some that God hates? You agree with that? Those are the words of Paul. Jesus even said only those that the Father grants come to him and ALL that the Father grants come to him. Since we know not all come to him that means there are some that the Father did not grant it to.

 

[Johann]

You must hate Paul too.

No, no, this must be done in love brother, don't react, respond.
J.

 

[reformed1689]

Careful brother.
J.

Believe me, I am being VERY careful.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The idea that God wants to save every individual person.

He’s not willing that anyone should perish. That’s a verse. That’s saying He does not want anyone to perish. So we know what God wants. Yet you say the idea that God wants to save every individual is “bad theology.” You are just boxing at the air.

 

[APAK]

Your post reminded me of the parable of the 4 soils. The gospel is for all mankind. How they respond to it is up to them.

Insightful comment mate...:)

 

[Lambano]

The good news is that Christ came to die and save those who would believe in Him. That is the good news.

Close. The good news is the that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2) And that is WHY this man should trust (believe) in Him.

Do you know what "the world" is in John's writings?

 

[Johann]

He’s not willing that anyone should perish. That’s a verse. That’s saying He does not want anyone to perish. So we know what God wants. Yet you say the idea that God wants to save every individual is “bad theology.” You are just boxing at the air.

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life (Joh. 3:16).
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 Jo. 2:1).
Salvation is a gift of God’s grace, not of works, lest any man
should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no works that a man can
do to save himself.
Salvation is 100% by God’s grace through Christ’s
atonement and 0% by man’s work (Ro. 11:6; 2 Ti. 1:9; 1 Pe.
1:18-21).
Salvation is through faith (Ro. 3:25, 30, 31; Ga. 3:8, 14; Eph.
2:8; 3:15; Heb. 6:12).
Faith is not works. The Bible contrasts faith with works
(Ro. 9:32; Ga. 2:16; 3:2). By the law of works there is boasting,
but not by the law of faith. “Where is boasting then? It is
excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith”
(Ro. 3:27). Faith is like the hand that receives God’s gift of
salvation. Receiving a gift is not a work and is nothing to
boast of. All glory goes to the giver.
God does the work of drawing sinners to salvation. Sinners
don’t seek God on their own; they can’t convict or enlighten
or repent themselves. They can’t bring themselves out of

darkness into light. They can’t regenerate themselves. Christ
said He would draw all men to Himself. “And I, if I be lifted
up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (Joh. 12:32).
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Since we know not all come to him

How do we know that? We don’t know a mans future. You once hadn’t yet come to Him either. Did He show you mercy?

 

[ChristisGod]

Close. The good news is the that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2) And that is WHY this man should trust (believe) in Him.

Do you know what "the world" is in John's writings?

Yes I believe I do mate.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society



Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

 

[ChristisGod]

continued :


1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone not exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

The above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

PS- I have been a calvinst for 40 years and now "reforming" those beliefs.

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

for attacking your character

This is the part that is your perception.

I've put you on ignore at times in the past to help myself to enforce what I believed to be the correct choice, to stop engaging with you for a time.

I find I'm often drawn back to conversations that I've felt impressed upon by God that it's no longer useful, so to help myself disengage, I've used Ignore. It's got more to do with me that it does you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Because they are in bondage to their sin. They do not want to come. They do not want God.

But that's everyone, in your view, isn't it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why do I not come out and say that? Because that is a strawman argument and not what I believe.

I believe the following.

1. Man, in his sin, will never choose God. He doesn't want God. He does not desire God.
2. God promises all that will believe, all that will choose Him, he will save. The problem is that is nobody. That is not a false promise, it is a genuine promise. A sincere promise, but there are realities to that promise that man doesn't want it.
3. Because nobody wants this, God has decided to show his love and mercy to change the hearts of some to save. The rest he is content to leave in THEIR OWN DECISION to stay in their sin. They are condemned already.
4. Christ paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him.

That is what I believe because that is what Scripture states.

It's the exact same thing in different words.

God chooses to save some, leaves the rest knowing they can never choose of themselves to be saved, so He just leaves them where they are, though He offers salvation to all. An empty offer for many!

Much love!

 

[marks]

What part of giving up trying and asking for what you lack is trying to finish in the flesh…?

It's not the part about giving up and asking for help. Its the part that if you don't get sufficient control over your flesh that you may yet be cast out. I think you'd put that a little differently, but that's essentially it. Your spirit is right with God, but that will actually work against you if you don't finish "crucifying your flesh".

Much love!

 

[marks]

In a very real sense, combined with trust, denying self/ego/our will is accepting whatever circumstance you find yourself in as Something God either wills or permits. A verse says He guides our steps. And Job shows us satan has to ask permission to sift us like wheat. Ranting and fuming over a flat tire or even so much as a stubbed toe then becomes my own will complaining over Gods will. One old saint said, to know Gods will it is only necessary to look at your circumstances.

I like the way this is stated in "Oceans", "Your sovereign will, will be my guide". What is God's will for my life? Look around!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Scripture says God desires (θέλω) all to be saved. Including addicts who don't trust Him and who can't come clean.

Does a sovereign God sovereignly allow Man to defy His desires? If so, why?

Because real love cannot be coerced.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

It's the exact same thing in different words.

God chooses to save some, leaves the rest knowing they can never choose of themselves to be saved, so He just leaves them where they are, though He offers salvation to all. An empty offer for many!

Much love!

I get that you have a problem comprehending the truth, but no, it is not an empty offer. It is genuine, they just don't WANT it.

 

[reformed1689]

But that's everyone, in your view, isn't it?

Much love!

Yes, which is why God drags some people out of that bondage. That doesn't mean his offer is not genuine. It means that he doesn't pull everyone out against their desire and change their desire.

 

[reformed1689]

How do we know that? We don’t know a mans future. You once hadn’t yet come to Him either. Did He show you mercy?

So are you a universalist? Do you believe everyone goes to Heaven? Did Judas go to Heaven? What about Pharaoh?