Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[reformed1689]

Why Calvinism? He was a fallible man...stay with the Scriptures and deny yourself, pick up your cross (not Calvin, he's dead)...and follow the Master..

And here is your error of thinking Calvinism means you follow Calvin. Nope. Try again.

 

[reformed1689]

I've seen the Biblical arguments for both sides. If it were cut and dried, this would've been resolved centuries ago.

You have seen arguments from both sides, yes, not biblical ones though. The reason it is not settled is some do not want to let God be God and want some sort of control.

 

[reformed1689]

Why wouldn't it be?

Because election gives us hope. Without election, nobody is saved. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

 

[marks]

Indeed, what all does fall within the scope of “having been saved” as the term is used in the verse in question?

And in light of your question about ongoing walking and trusting, I wonder why Paul here uses the Perfect Participle form, “having been saved”.

I really appreciate your contributions!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Because election gives us hope. Without election, nobody is saved. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Really?
How do you know you are elected?

 

[reformed1689]

Really?
How do you know you are elected?

It is simple really. Have you confessed Christ? Do you believe Christ? Do you love Christ? Are you striving to live like Christ? Do you want to be like Christ? Are you growing in Christ? Do you show the fruits of the Spirit? These are good indicators that you are, indeed, elect.

 

[Johann]

It is simple really. Have you confessed Christ? Do you believe Christ? Do you love Christ? Are you striving to live like Christ? Do you want to be like Christ? Are you growing in Christ? Do you show the fruits of the Spirit? These are good indicators that you are, indeed, elect.

Absolutely


God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who
gave himself a ransom for all, to be testifed in due time (1 Ti.
2:4-6).
God is not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance (2 Pe. 3:9).
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life (Joh. 3:16).
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 Jo. 2:1).
Salvation is a gif of God’s grace, not of works, lest any man
should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no works that a man can
do to save himself.

Yes
J.

 

[marks]

who did God become displeased with? Wasn’t it those He had already saved?

No, not like you are saying.

Saved from slavery. Saved from Egypt. Not born again, not saved from sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To live eternally means to live eternally.

Eternal life is knowing God and knowing Jesus, not just "existing".

We really need to stick to Biblical meanings.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I should be so spiritually mature! But poor marks must feel grossly insulted.

We are one in Christ, no more, and no less!

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

Absolutely


God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who
gave himself a ransom for all, to be testifed in due time (1 Ti.
2:4-6).
God is not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance (2 Pe. 3:9).
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life (Joh. 3:16).
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 Jo. 2:1).
Salvation is a gif of God’s grace, not of works, lest any man
should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no works that a man can
do to save himself.

Yes
J.

Unless you believe in universalism, you need to rethink your use of those passages and look at context and meaning. No, God does not desire all individuals to be saved, that is not his will. If it were, all would be saved and we know all are not.

 

[marks]

Johann, what are you wrestling with?

Are you looking for solid ground? (Allusion to Matthew 7:24-27)

Regarding the subject of this thread: The battle between the Articles of Remonstrance and TULIP has been ongoing since 1611. Both sides have strong Biblical support, which is why faithful believers still debate it without resolution. The cognitive dissonance in trying to believe two contradictory theological systems is mentally destabilizing. The only solid ground I can offer is πίστις, TRUST. That's where I find peace of mind.

Personally I don't find both sides having good support.

God doesn't lie, therefore His offer of salvation to everyone is real. And nothing refutes that, when you give it an Honest hearing.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

@Johann

http://bibledoc.org/daniel-class/daniel-4-and-the-sovereignty-of-god-2/#comments

Confronting Calvinism
(I can have this transcribed if you don't care to listen)

Just ignore the Adventist-flavored stuff, if it troubles you.

Just suggestions

 

[reformed1689]

Personally I don't find both sides having good support.

God doesn't lie, therefore His offer of salvation to everyone is real. And nothing refutes that, when you give it an Honest hearing.

Much love!

What makes you think that in the Calvinist view the salvation offer to everyone is not real? If someone believes, they would be saved. The problem is nobody wants to believe.

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm used to this, lost most of my bibles and resources in the ministry I was in..there's a famine here where I am, a famine of scriptural sources.
Saw you using ol' Webster and promptly bookmarked it.
J.

What are scriptural sources?
What do you need?

 

[marks]

Did you also battle with these two camps, Armenian and Calvinism Lambano?
I was not aware how long this debate is going on..there are "grey" verses that imply the free offer is for all, then there are verses that state we were chosen before time, some elect, others not.
Maybe you can help me clear the fog since I am getting desperate here..hope you know what I'm getting at dear friend
J.
Some resort to intellectual oratory others have it all together.
Glad you have not shoot at me.

Hi Johann,

I've studied this quite a bit, if you would like to look at verses together, I'll be happy to. I've found that there are many verses taken out of context and misused, such as "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you". Jesus said this to His disciples, and is not a passage making a general statement of how it is we come to be reborn. It's about how these twelve men became Jesus disciple.

And there are many like this.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

What makes you think that in the Calvinist view the salvation offer to everyone is not real? If someone believes, they would be saved. The problem is nobody wants to believe.

No, the problem is: Calvinists can't seem to agree on what Calvinism is. You never know who you're talking to. Makes it just an annoyance to anyone who isn't chained to the label, you know? It's not worth the fuss and falderal. Get together on it and get back to us.

 

[marks]

And that's cool too.

I got pointed to Blue Letter Bible and it's interlinear feature by someone on another forum, and the way my mind works, it was like turning a kid loose in a candy store.

www.Scripture4all.org I use this one all the time.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you're looking to lift the fog using only Biblical proof-texts, I don't think you can do it. If it could be done, this issue would have been resolved sometime in the last 411 years.

I disagree with you. The issue has been resolved, yet many still persist in disputing it.

I've seen passages brought up time and time again, that make clear plain statements, and no matter how fully this is presented, people still continue to misuse them.

This one "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" is one of my favorite examples, because it is so straightforward, and so commonly misused.

Another,

Ephesians 1:3-4 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are chosen "in Him", as Jesus is the "Elect Servant" (Isaiah 42:1). We have all spiritual blessings in Christ. If you are not "in Christ", you do not have those blessings, including election.

We are elect because He is elect, and in Him, we share what He has, including election.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The clearest, most starkly delineated example of what I’m talking about is this passage because the verses follow one after another, which isn’t the case elsewhere:

4Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or you will become as foolish as they are.
5Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or they will become wise in their own estimation.

Why do you keep using this as an example of some supposed contradiction? Do you find ignorance so useful that you cannot let it go? You don't accept the answer from me, and you don't study it yourself to find the answer, why?

Much love!