Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[stunnedbygrace]

For any of us, once God does this, then we will not fail to respond and thus choose the Right, and freely. Until then, though, we will not fail to choose, quite freely, the... left.

I can try to elaborate, yes.
This was the part that made me say you went to the opposite extreme.

one man says he is saved because he agreed with a plan. He chose.
Another man says he is saved because God decided he was and gave him no choice.

The first man is saying his choice saved him. He is saying, I chose life with my very own free will and another man chose death.
The second man is saying God chose him and makes him to choose correctly.

God has said, you did not choose me, I chose you. But He has also said, I put before you death or life, choose life, why should you die?

So each man takes one thing God has said while ignoring the other thing God has said. Each man goes to one extreme and shoots at the other. But to have the balance, you must be able to say, yes, but God has also
said…
Otherwise, you end up crooked.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Good. Now apply that definition to accepting the gift God offers.

what gift? Eternal life? It’s too simplified. It doesn’t include the actual walking out of your salvation with fear and trembling. It doesn’t include the knot we run into when we say we trust Him but later prove we don’t.

 

[Wynona]

Happy to see the humility and patience from @stunnedbygrace here.

 

[Lambano]

what gift? Eternal life? It’s too simplified. It doesn’t include the actual walking out of your salvation with fear and trembling. It doesn’t include the knot we run into when we say we trust Him but later prove we don’t.

Indeed, what all does fall within the scope of “having been saved” as the term is used in the verse in question?

And in light of your question about ongoing walking and trusting, I wonder why Paul here uses the Perfect Participle form, “having been saved”.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Indeed, what all does fall within the scope of “having been saved” as the term is used in the verse in question?

we would need to bring in many more verses. And in the end we would come to fear and trembling because the end question would be, saved, yes, but saved to what? Some will be saved to eternal shame. (No one considers they might, but we know some will.) It’s always the other guy though, right?

 

[Lambano]

we would need to bring in many more verses. And in the end we would come to fear and trembling because the end question would be, saved, yes, but saved to what? Some will be saved to eternal shame. (No one considers they might, but we know some will.) It’s always the other guy though, right?

Does being “saved to eternal shame” count as being “saved”?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Indeed, what all does fall within the scope of “having been saved” as the term is used in the verse in question?

And in light of your question about ongoing walking and trusting, I wonder why Paul here uses the Perfect Participle form, “having been saved”.

Are you marks in disguise?
Is he the apostle who also said this:
And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.

7 That is why the Holy Spirit says,

“Today when you hear his voice,
8 don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled,
when they tested me in the wilderness.
9 There your ancestors tested and tried my patience,
even though they saw my miracles for forty years.
10 So I was angry with them, and I said,
‘Their hearts always turn away from me.
They refuse to do what I tell them.’
11 So in my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest.’”

12 Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters.Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. 13 You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.14 For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. 15 Remember what it says:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled.”

16 And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn’t it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? 18 And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? 19 So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

who did God become displeased with? Wasn’t it those He had already saved?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Does being “saved to eternal shame” count as being “saved”?

To live eternally means to live eternally.

 

[Johann]

Im sorry but I literally don’t understand a word of what you’ve said here. I read it four times. Sorry. I tried.

Busy reading my Bible from cover to cover, then again in Greek and Hebrew. There is something wrong and I am wrestling like Jacob.
Sorry to say this but I am not edified on this forum, too many disagreements.
Now and again I will post something to stir the pot.
Shalom to you and family
J.

 

[Lambano]

Are you marks in disguise?

I should be so spiritually mature! But poor marks must feel grossly insulted.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As my friend says, humility and fear of God will keep you safe. Remain humble and fear God. Whether among the nations or ruling over the nations, God makes a place for both.

 

[Lambano]

To live eternally means to live eternally.

You did say that considering salvation to be equivalent to eternal life only was an over simplification. And it also brings into play eternal life in the flames, or eternal life in the Outer Darkness, and I know you find the former abhorrent and the latter terrifying.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Busy reading my Bible from cover to cover, then again in Greek and Hebrew. There is something wrong and I am wrestling like Jacob.
Sorry to say this but I am not edified on this forum, too many disagreements.
Now and again I will post something to stir the pot.
Shalom to you and family
J.

What does edified mean to you? To me it means to be built up in my trust. If my trust is not increased by something or someone or a certain doctrine I drop it. If it builds up my trust I keep it. It doesn’t mean it’s something I just don’t understand yet. But if it offers me no building up of my trust, I just leave it.

 

[Johann]

What say we all just chuck Calvin and Spurgeon and Wesley and even Strong and Thayer and just go with the

B-I-B-L-E

♫ Yes, that's the book for me... ♫

Just a thought

Subtle coercion.
You have a tremendous gift of communication and are highly intelligent, so glad to know the disciples were unlearned, uncouth in speech


1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

There's a lot of boasting going on here and we can have a prideful spirit in being "too humble"

Shalom and good night.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You did say that considering salvation to be equivalent to eternal life only was an over simplification. And it also brings into play eternal life in the flames, or eternal life in the Outer Darkness, and I know you find the former abhorrent and the latter terrifying.

I find the doctrine abhorrent, yes. It purports that men are born eternal beings and also that the only way to eternal life is by the Spirit. So it’s quite schizo. It makes unbelievers dig their heels in even more to see the absurdity of mens claims. It does great harm all around.

 

[Johann]

What does edified mean to you? To me it means to be built up in my trust. If my trust is not increased by something or someone or a certain doctrine I drop it. If it builds up my trust I keep it. It doesn’t mean it’s something I just don’t understand yet. But if it offers me no building up of my trust, I just leave it.

You don't want me to bite you, do you?
Or maybe attempting to solicit a reaction from my side...?
Did you put the other brother on ignore who was in your face...Yeshua?
Is there an air of superiority on your side?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Barny, do you want to borrow my catchers mitt? Saves the fingers.

 

[APAK]

@PinSeeker @stunnedbygrace @Johann and to anyone else...

Just a note and no response is required regarding the classic alleged contradiction of whom/or who can claim to choose salvation for self or for others...
..................
I see no contradiction with a man saying he thinks, even from his heart, that he 'chose' the salvation plan and God alone, all by himself, independent from God (not in scripture), and then God saying he really chose this man according to scripture, his word. It is a matter of perspective and context. Only one claim is correct.

Let me explain briefly..

Man truly cannot make this spiritual decision alone, with his so-called free carnal will without the influence of God in this process. And besides, it is God's spiritual domain no less when dealing with a man's heart, and this man must play by his rules. Further, this man's claim of salvation is not valid or authenticated yet until God chooses him, by examining and knowing that his heart and mind met all of his requirements for salvation.

If this man passes the test of the heart and mind, meeting all his requirements, then and only then God finally chooses him and gives him the faith of sustaining his salvation and seals him immediately with his Spirit. This man soon knows he is saved as his spirit attests from his heart that the/a Spirit of God now dwell in him. This man can never provide his own faith to save himself let alone sustain it.

This man can never say he truly chose God. That is woefully premature on his part and impossible to do.

Moreover, God always waits for a human decision before attempting to choose/select him for salvation. He will never force salvation upon anyone, away from their heart's desire and 'limited will.

So there is no contradiction or balance required at all, and no reconciliation required eventhough the man's statement and God's seem to conflict each other concerning who really chooses salvation. The man's premature claim of salvation by his own will entirely is false and unscriptural. God choose the saved and the elect.

One claim is from a human with no power to truly save himself and being time limited or constrained, mortal, and the other eternally divine and living who possesses foreknowledge and predestination to truly choose a person into his Kingdom.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You don't want me to bite you, do you?
Or maybe attempting to solicit a reaction from my side...?
Did you put the other brother on ignore who was in your face...Yeshua?
Is there an air of superiority on your side?

Dude, I was asking a question…I wondered what the word meant to you when you heard it.

 

[Johann]

Dude, I was asking a question…I wondered what the word meant to you when you heard it.

I'm not your "Dude"