ROMANS: CHRIST DIED FOR US

[Doug]

this contradicts Jesus and the rest of the bible, remember in hebrews paul spoke about the new covenant by quoting isaish 31:31-33? he alsi sais the law was just and good?

Yes they contradict but this is where rightly dividing comes in....both are true but pertain to which dispensation is in view


Paul said the law was good but there are things we need to understand:

the law had to be used lawfully
[1Ti 1:8-9 KJV] 8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Not made for the righteous....according to Paul those who believe his gospel are righteous (Rom 4:5 5:1 5:17)

The law does include the ten commandments....the ten are not separate...look at the following verses

[Rom 2:18, 20-23 KJV] 18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; ... 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

v18 v20 speaks of the law....it quotes the ten....v21 do not steal...v22 do not commit adultery and make no carved images.....the ten is also the law

[Rom 3:20 KJV] 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

You can't be justified, declared righteous, by keeping the ten/law

 

[Doug]

Paul was a servant of Christ like the 12, however the bible clearly states that is is Peter that was appointed by GOD to preach to the gentiles. Acts 15:7

[Act 15:7 KJV] 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Peter is recounting what happened in Acts 10
[Act 10:43-45 KJV] 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note what Peter was preaching in v43.....the name of Christ..
The Gentiles were not preached the cross
Theses Gentiles were part of the church of God that believed on His name from the preaching of Peter and the twelve

 

[Doug]

The disciples were special people Blessed anongst all men!, chosen by GOD I am certain, they have special places with GOD in Heaven as it is written in the bible as an example I will give you this verse from;

Revelation 21:12-14 (NKJV):
"Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."​

You are saying the disciples are in heaven now? I thought we agreed they never spoke of heaven
The verse in Revelation speaks of the city on earth (Rev 21:2)

 

[LoveYeshua]

Just to note about this verse
John tells us who will overcome
[1Jo 5:5 KJV] 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

This is believing on the name of Jesus that he is the Son of God
We also believe that.....when Paul was converted he preached this....but he also preached that Christ died for our sins was buried and rose for our justification

in the KJV this verse if past of a whole it has a title also in my bible;

Overcoming the World​

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

these must be read together and cannot be separated of the message is list. in essence is says that fiest we must believe in GOD/Jesus and second, obey the commandments! ist is very clear! Just believing is noT enough it is clear.

I need clarification when you say ""we also believe that"" who are you referring to?

cheers.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Yes they contradict but this is where rightly dividing comes in....both are true but pertain to which dispensation is in view


Paul said the law was good but there are things we need to understand:

the law had to be used lawfully
[1Ti 1:8-9 KJV] 8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Not made for the righteous....according to Paul those who believe his gospel are righteous (Rom 4:5 5:1 5:17)

The law does include the ten commandments....the ten are not separate...look at the following verses

[Rom 2:18, 20-23 KJV] 18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; ... 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

v18 v20 speaks of the law....it quotes the ten....v21 do not steal...v22 do not commit adultery and make no carved images.....the ten is also the law

[Rom 3:20 KJV] 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

You can't be justified, declared righteous, by keeping the ten/law

I disagree with what you say I will not debate on Paul, like I asked you before who will you follow to the end? Paul or Jesus, their gospel is not quite the same I want an answer to this. the Law is not there to make us righteous but obeying GOD who says to obey the commandments will make you so, they are not negotiable and are a requirement for the kingdom of heaven all 10 of them. I am certain of this. remember God declared abram righteous for obeying his command to sacrifice his son , this was a test so are the 10 Commandments all of the 10. If you love GOD and follow them you are Good for the Kingdom, do you believe this, it is part of the message of Jesus.

remember that in 2 peter 3 it is written Paul is difficult to understand, this is true and many misinterpret his words and mix everything up.

Peace

 

[LoveYeshua]

[Act 15:7 KJV] 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Peter is recounting what happened in Acts 10
[Act 10:43-45 KJV] 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note what Peter was preaching in v43.....the name of Christ..
The Gentiles were not preached the cross
Theses Gentiles were part of the church of God that believed on His name from the preaching of Peter and the twelve

You cannot say the original 12 were not preaching the cross this is not true because Jesus asked the 11 to preach all they the learned and saw during his ministry here is the proof, it is certain they they mentioned the death and resurrection of Christ!

The Great Commission​

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mrk 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mrk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mrk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mrk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

do you believe that Christ said or not?

 

[Doug]

in the KJV this verse if past of a whole it has a title also in my bible;

Overcoming the World​

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

these must be read together and cannot be separated of the message is list. in essence is says that fiest we must believe in GOD/Jesus and second, obey the commandments! ist is very clear! Just believing is noT enough it is clear.

I need clarification when you say ""we also believe that"" who are you referring to?

cheers.

I see what you are saying
This is for Israel however who had to believe Jesus was the Son of God and keep the commandments to enter the earthly kingdom

 

[Doug]

need clarification when you say ""we also believe that"" who are you referring to?

We, the body of Christ. believe that Jesus is the Son of God....we believe also in his redemption by the cross

 

[LoveYeshua]

You are saying the disciples are in heaven now? I thought we agreed they never spoke of heaven
The verse in Revelation speaks of the city on earth (Rev 21:2)

IF I gave you the impression the disciples are in heaven , my bad, Scripture says some are with GOD or were taken directly to heaven, some of the prophets, also Jesus on the cross said to a tief next to him" " I say to you that you will ne with me in paradise today" GOD decides where we go when we die. It is possible thet the 11 are with Jesus in heaven already. Heaven exits NOW but is a spitural kingdom and not on earth certainly at this time but that will come soon.

Scripture teaches there will be a first Kingdom when Jesus returns Again, they will rebuild Jerusalem and the remnants of Israel, the lost tribes still lost to this day will be brought back. the old testament prophecies are clear about this, revelations says that after 1000 years of this millennium kingdom, Satan will be released on earth again and will cause some countries to attack Jerusalem. Satan will be vanquished and destroyed in the lake of fire forever, them and only then will there be the final eternal Kingdom on a new earth with GOD in the mist of it, It will be HUGE and will have space for everyone who did God's will and Love him. this is all in revelations.

 

[LoveYeshua]

With all respect you can't join them in this dispensation

[Luk 13:7-8 KJV] 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:

This parable is about the nation of Israel repenting to believe on Jesus and believe the gospel of the kingdom.....he only gave them so much time before withdrawing the offer

[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The gospel of the kingdom will be preached again in the tribulation but is not preached today

Here is what I know;
In the Old Testament, God made it clear that the laws He gave to Israel were not just for them, but also for the strangers and foreigners who lived among them. In Exodus 12:49, it says, "One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you." This means that anyone who chose to live in Israel, whether they were from another nation or had joined the Israelites, had to follow the same laws. They weren’t excluded or treated differently just because they weren’t born in Israel.

Then, in Leviticus 19:33-34, God expands on this, saying that strangers should be treated with respect and love: "And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself." This commandment was a reminder to the Israelites of their own history when they were strangers in Egypt, and it emphasized that they should show compassion and hospitality to those who came to live among them.

In Numbers 15:15-16, the idea is repeated: "One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord." The law made no distinction between the native-born Israelite and the foreigner. Everyone was to be treated equally before God and expected to follow the same commandments.

This theme of inclusivity and equal treatment continues into the New Testament, where the message of the Kingdom of God expands beyond Israel to all people. Jesus Himself declared in Matthew 28:19 to His disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations," showing that the Gospel was for everyone, regardless of their background or nationality. In Galatians 3:28, Paul further echoes this truth, saying, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The Kingdom of God is open to all who are willing to follow Christ, regardless of where they come from or who they are.

So, just as God’s law in the Old Testament made no distinction between the Israelites and the sojourners who lived among them, the New Testament makes it clear that God’s Kingdom is for everyone. It’s a message of grace that transcends ethnic boundaries, offering salvation to all people, inviting everyone to be a part of His family. Just as the sojourner could choose to live according to God’s laws, so anyone, regardless of their past, is invited into the Kingdom through faith and obedience in Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I see what you are saying
This is for Israel however who had to believe Jesus was the Son of God and keep the commandments to enter the earthly kingdom

No Doug, this is not that is says it says ""1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God""

 

[LoveYeshua]

We, the body of Christ. believe that Jesus is the Son of God....we believe also in his redemption by the cross

thank you, I finally understand, I believe the same thing, thank you cor clarifying.

BLessings

got to go, ill catch you tomorrow Happy sabbath.

 

[Doug]

I need clarification when you say ""we also believe that"" who are you referring to?

We....the church today....we believe Jesus is Christ Son of God but that alone does not save today,,,we have tobelieve Paul's gospel
Israel was under covenant and the law and had to keep it

 

[Doug]

You cannot say the original 12 were not preaching the cross this is not true because Jesus asked the 11 to preach all they the learned and saw during his ministry here is the proof, it is certain they they mentioned the death and resurrection of Christ!

The Great Commission​

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mrk 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mrk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mrk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mrk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

do you believe that Christ said or not?

Yes I do believe what he said but it was to the twelve not Jew or Gentile today

 

[Doug]

who will you follow to the end? Paul or Jesus, their gospel is not quite the same I want an answer to this. t

it's not either or everything Paul wrote was given to him by Christ

 

[Doug]

Matthew 28:19 to His disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations," showing that the Gospel was for everyone, regardless of their background or nationality.

The twelve did not fulfil this and this was interrupted by the dispensation of grace

 

[Doug]

I disagree with what you say I will not debate on Paul, like I asked you before who will you follow to the end? Paul or Jesus, their gospel is not quite the same I want an answer to this. the Law is not there to make us righteous but obeying GOD who says to obey the commandments will make you so, they are not negotiable and are a requirement for the kingdom of heaven all 10 of them. I am certain of this. remember God declared abram righteous for obeying his command to sacrifice his son , this was a test so are the 10 Commandments all of the 10. If you love GOD and follow them you are Good for the Kingdom, do you believe this, it is part of the message of Jesus.

remember that in 2 peter 3 it is written Paul is difficult to understand, this is true and many misinterpret his words and mix everything up.

Peace

Did you understand what I was saying here


The law does include the ten commandments....the ten are not separate...look at the following verses

[Rom 2:18, 20-23 KJV] 18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; ... 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

v18 v20 speaks of the law....it quotes the ten....v21 do not steal...v22 do not commit adultery and make no carved images.....the ten is also the law

You seem to separate the ten commandments from the law....you have to follow the whole law....you cant separate the ten

 

[LoveYeshua]

it's not either or everything Paul wrote was given to him by Christ

Did you understand what I was saying here


The law does include the ten commandments....the ten are not separate...look at the following verses

[Rom 2:18, 20-23 KJV] 18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; ... 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

v18 v20 speaks of the law....it quotes the ten....v21 do not steal...v22 do not commit adultery and make no carved images.....the ten is also the law

You seem to separate the ten commandments from the law....you have to follow the whole law....you cant separate the ten

you wrote; ""You seem to separate the ten commandments from the law....you have to follow the whole law....you cant separate the ten""

yes you have to separate, God did so! they are not the same, I think I did already explain this to you I will check,

The bible says the 10 commandments are in fact the covenant this is clear. it is also clear the 10 commandments were given by GOD himself and written by HIS finger on the tablets of stone. these were placed in the ARK of the COVENANT. this is also clear from scripture.

the rest of the law written by Moses was added because they ( the israelites) did not want to follow the commandments and broke them, Moses inspired by GOD wrote the 10 commandments for Israel to help them because they needed a stronger guidance than just the 10 commandments. this law was placed on the side of the ark but not inside.

the 10 commandments represent GOD'S Moral law, it is for every HUMAN that GOD created! they will be put in the Heart of the believers, this described the new covenant that started when Jesus announced it , see in your bible the last supper.

The commandments are not abolished. what Paul is saying is that the added laws written by Moses are no longer necessary, just think of all the laws for sacrifice, since the penalty of sin was paid in full by Jesus who was called the lamb of God who by his death, was the lase and final sacrifice !

Do you agree with what I wrote, I can provide all the necessary verses that prove what I wrote. ler me know before i answer more questions this is very important and must be fully understood before we continue. I do not seek to force you in anything Just want to give you the facts of Why the bible is teaching. Ill be back later this evening.

Peace

Blessings

 

[Doug]

The bible says the 10 commandments are in fact the covenant this is clear.

The covenants were made only with Israel

 

[Doug]

is very important and must be fully understood before we continue.

Sorry I just cant go along with this

[Jas 2:10-11 KJV] 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Even James does not separate the ten from being the whole law