Romans 11:25 - Partially blinded

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Spiritual Israelite

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Part 2

So, how can I totally agree with you yet claim the Jews are His chosen people at the same time? Doesn't make sense! I believe it may be because how I am looking at them, or I am looking at them differently, not just through the lens of being saved as a Christian or not..... which of course, you pointed out does not depend on being a Jew or Greek.


However, it was God who selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation. He was not a Jew... Isaac was not a Jew, Jacob was not a Jew but his name was changed to Israel and of course had 12 children - one named Judah. But through his lineage, God would cause a special people to come forth where He would reveal that He was the One and only true God. There is no other. He would give them His laws and commands to obey - both ceremonial and moral laws and commands. They were given this knowledge to read, study and learn and adopt in their every waking moments. They were to separate themselves from the pagan world and maintain this very difficult way of life - an unworldly way of life unlike the rest of the pagan world.

Although they were to keep themselves separate from on the pagans, they were also required to go out into the pagan world and teach / preach their One true God to them so they might be saved. But they did not do that... they kept themselves separate in every way including keeping this One true God to themselves. BUT THIS IS WHY THEY WERE CHOSEN BY GOD. Certainly not because they were better than others, bigger, stronger, etc., but because God had selected Abraham to begin His priestly nation for this one purpose. That selection process cannot be reversed... it will always be.... they were and will always be His chosen people where He would establish a special relationship with .... and if you look throughout the Tanakh, there is certainly no other peoples that had such a special relationship with God or interacted with their God, or God had revealed Himself so often and in so many ways with these same people..... Clearly, He had a special relationship with them... and always will!


Now, despite having this special relationship with His people, His demands on them were clearly too much for them. There is no way that anyone, any human being could keep His 10 commandments for one hour or one day on this earth. We are indeed a fallen creature incapable of meeting His holy requirements - because there is absolutely NO holiness, righteousness in any one of us for one second of one day - the only place we will find "holiness or righteousness" is in God.... period! And the only time He placed that in mankind was in the Garden with Adam at the time of his creation.... and he still disobeyed God.

Therefore, God knew from the foundation of the world that Abraham's children would be chosen and they had no ability to keep His laws and commands and they would constantly fail.... but that is the assignment He placed on them. I don't believe anyone would ever want to be placed in a position where the assignment was impossible to complete yet that is what has been asked of you.

Further, they were partially blinded from recognizing their Messiah when He arrived to fulfill His God given mission mentioned in 9:24. Again, not only were His chosen people unable to live one minute perfectly under His laws and commands, but now they are being divinely blindfolded so they will not recognize the One who has placed all of these laws and commands on them.

All of this was known / designed by God before the foundation of the world. Any His chosen people were given this impossible assignment and blinded to their Messiah so the Gentiles of the world would also be saved by this One true God. Personally, I cannot believe the price they had to pay that would give us the opportunity to be saved. But it is this manner that I use the word "chosen" people for they have been given a very impossible assignment by their God.

Finally, as a result of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah (again, partially blinded), they would be severely punished for over 2000 years. God would become "desolate" to His people - His chosen people for what is termed the "Time of the Gentiles." Once again, their punishment is beyond what anyone would want.... but they are paying the price so we can be saved - this is His plan of salvation.

As it is mentioned in both the OT and the NT, there is neither Jew nor Greek in regards to our "salvation." However, none of this has changed the definition of the Jews being His chosen people. And further, God clearly tells us that He will NEVER abandone His people (those same chosen people)... and this speaks to those after the cross.

God has still one very important mission for His chosen people to complete and it can ONLY be completed by them... It is not a mission that can be fulfilled by any Gentile, no matter if He is a believer of Jesus or not, and it cannot be fulfilled by God. It must be fulfilled by His people and that pertains to the last 3.5 years of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle. As you are aware, the 4th GJ cycle is 490 years long and it started the exact same time as the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Thus, they were both scheduled to end at the very same time - the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy or at the end of the last week - exactly 3.5 years after the cross.

Because of their decision / actions against their Messiah, the counting of the 4th GJ cycle would stop. They were no longer in good standing with their God. Consequently, the actual number of years completed for the 4th and final GJ cycle was exactly 486.5 years - 3.5 years short of the 490 years. At the end of the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle, God would arrive to be with His people. Unfortunately, the clock had stopped and it has been some 1994 years (2024 - 30) that this clock has been stuck at 486.5 years. It can ONLY begin to run again when the Jews are back in good standing with their God. But that cannot happen as long as they continue to reject Him as they did in the first century. And this is where God comes in... He will, just as He did with Paul, divinely give them a "Damascus" like experience and remove the blindness from their eyes. This will occur when God deems the "Times of the Gentiles" is over. At that time, His chosen people will go out into the world no different that Paul and preach the Good News to the world. This will be the true Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus ... it will not sound like the false gospel preached today by the little horn (RCC), but through the eyes and ears of His people - from the Tanakh to Revelation. They will preach for exactly 3.5 years and this will bring in the return of Jesus.

So, in this manner, I refer to them as His chosen people.... they will always be in His plans to the very end of time.
I don't even know where to begin on this. It's as if you recognize that both Jew and Gentile Christians are His chosen people and then you just throw that out the window and focus on Israel instead.

It seems that you believe when God blinded some of the Israelites, that they then remained blinded the rest of their lives and most of them have been blinded with no chance at salvation ever since. Is that what you believe? If so, then you need to explain why Paul hoped to help save some of his fellow Israelites who were blinded in his day (Romans 11:11-14). Their salvation has not been postponed as so many people falsely believe.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Our Savior is also seen challenging the Jewish leaders of His day, in John 8:32, saying, ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

To which they responded, “We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” (v 33).

Jesus replied, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed (obviously speaking naturally); but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father(vv 37-38).

The Jews then boasted,Abraham is our father” (v39).

Christ responds to this misguided boast of these hypocrites, saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant [or slave] of sin. And the servant [or slave] abideth not in the house for ever: but the son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father” (John 8:34-38).

There is such a battle going on here between the natural and the spiritual. The unbelieving religious Jews are pushing their genetic pedigree here as proof of their connection to Abraham, whereas Christ is trying to show them a spiritual truth – showing them that Israel’s inheritance is not secured by native heritage but rather by spiritual means What Jesus was basically saying is: ‘you might be a physical descendent of Abraham and yet not qualify to be a son or a child of God. What then would your ethnic DNA matter?’ He is showing them that faith matters!

These religious Jews had no revelation of their own innate sin. They were depending upon their own self-righteousness. Little did they know it, but man’s only deliverer from sin was standing in their midst. Every man since Adam is born with original sin and therefore stands completely guilty before a righteous God. In the first Adam (the first nature) all are sinners and therefore destined to lost eternity. Jews and Gentiles approach God on the same grounds being collectively blighted with the same disfigurement – sin. They consequently require the same cure (the only medicine for this affliction) – the blood of Jesus. All men are on a level playing field when it comes to birth. All are equally required to submit to the exact same requirements – faith in Christ and repentance towards God.

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

Our Savior hits these religious imposters clean between the eyes with marksman’s accuracy and sobering truth. Firstly, He informed them that they had no right to consider themselves as “Abraham's children.” He advanced: “If ye were Abraham's children” speaking in a spiritual sense, and “If God were your Father” also speaking spiritually, “ye would love me.” What He was telling them was: if you truly were Abraham’s children then your life and conduct would be like him and his. He was telling them that behavior reveals identity. He goes even further, He informs them that the evidence of them being true children of Abraham is demonstrated by them loving Him. This is the litmus test of who is a true child of Abraham and what it is to be part of God’s chosen people.

Secondly, He identifies their true father as Satan. This would have been explosive and offensive to these proud religiously Jewish leaders. Jesus demonstrated that favor with Him didn’t come through natural pedigree but rather spiritual pedigree. Those Jews who rejected God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any way considered as God’s chosen people. They were children of the devil and they were heading to hell.
Right. Agree 100%. Many people misunderstand what Paul was saying here:

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Many people think that Paul was talking about all Israelites as God's people when he said that God did not cast away His people which He foreknew. But, the reality is that Paul was referring specifically only to the "remnant according to the election of grace" as God's people, not "the rest" of Israel who "were blinded". God's people are those who have faith like Abraham. Period. It has nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality whatsoever.

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
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CTK

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I don't even know where to begin on this. It's as if you recognize that both Jew and Gentile Christians are His chosen people and then you just throw that out the window and focus on Israel instead.

It seems that you believe when God blinded some of the Israelites, that they then remained blinded the rest of their lives and most of them have been blinded with no chance at salvation ever since. Is that what you believe? If so, then you need to explain why Paul hoped to help save some of his fellow Israelites who were blinded in his day (Romans 11:11-14). Their salvation has not been postponed as so many people falsely believe.
Thank you for your thoughts. Ok, let me try and shorten (that mess) that attempted to respond to toooo many things.

1) God chosen Abraham and through his lineage, they would be His “chosen” people to reveal to the world the One True God.

2) The Jews did not succeed in that mission but kept Him to themselves.

3) Their Messiah arrived but was rejected by “His people.”

4) I believe that there was not one Jew at the time of Jesus that was allowed to (truly) recognize that He was their Messiah (God on earth). Certainly, He had thousands of followers but they would all abandon Him. But this “blindness” was from God.

5) After the cross / resurrection, He would send His Holy Spirit. Now, they would truly accept He was their Messiah and be willing to die for Him.

6) But after the cross, everyone would now hear the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus and will have to make their own / individual choice to believe and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. This would apply to both Jew and Gentile. All would be one in Christ.

7) So, the original topic was to learn what others believed about this “partial blindness.”

8) And this discussion (I hoped) would have to consider 3 time sections (might be 3 different answers).

a) were all Jews divinely blinded PRIOR to the cross?

b) were all / some / none of the Jews kept blinded after the cross (even until today’s time)?

c) will today’s Jews who still reject Jesus have a “Damascus” experience, or will they continue to reject Him even until the end?

9) I believe the conversation moved to whether the Jews were STILL His “chosen people.” And if that “title” has now been redefined to mean “Jew and Gentiles” that believe in Jesus. It is my belief that ALL are in Christ who believe in Him, and from a salvation view, ALL are standing together. However, the Jews were selected by God for a special mission, and the cross did not remove that the Jews were no longer His “chosen people.” They did fail in their mission to preach the One true God!

10) Further, it was these same Jews (not the Pharisees) that were sent out into the world to preach Jesus. It was God who literally remove the blindness from Paul. So, they (Jews) would in fact, succeed in their God given mission but ONLY after and as a result of the cross.

11) The Gentiles can not replace or change the Jews as “His chosen people,” because they were the receivers of Word and the Testimony of Jesus from them. The Gentiles had a choice, as today, to accept or reject Jesus.

I hope this is a better read for you… and perhaps you might be willing to comment on this by referring to each numbered point so we can focus on one at a time?

Thanks
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Thank you for your thoughts. Ok, let me try and shorten (that mess) that attempted to respond to toooo many things.

1) God chosen Abraham and through his lineage, they would be His “chosen” people to reveal to the world the One True God.

2) The Jews did not succeed in that mission but kept Him to themselves.

3) Their Messiah arrived but was rejected by “His people.”

4) I believe that there was not one Jew at the time of Jesus that was allowed to (truly) recognize that He was their Messiah (God on earth). Certainly, He had thousands of followers but they would all abandon Him. But this “blindness” was from God.

5) After the cross / resurrection, He would send His Holy Spirit. Now, they would truly accept He was their Messiah and be willing to die for Him.

6) But after the cross, everyone would now hear the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus and will have to make their own / individual choice to believe and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. This would apply to both Jew and Gentile. All would be one in Christ.

7) So, the original topic was to learn what others believed about this “partial blindness.”

8) And this discussion (I hoped) would have to consider 3 time sections (might be 3 different answers).

a) were all Jews divinely blinded PRIOR to the cross?

b) were all / some / none of the Jews kept blinded after the cross (even until today’s time)?

c) will today’s Jews who still reject Jesus have a “Damascus” experience, or will they continue to reject Him even until the end?

9) I believe the conversation moved to whether the Jews were STILL His “chosen people.” And if that “title” has now been redefined to mean “Jew and Gentiles” that believe in Jesus. It is my belief that ALL are in Christ who believe in Him, and from a salvation view, ALL are standing together. However, the Jews were selected by God for a special mission, and the cross did not remove that the Jews were no longer His “chosen people.” They did fail in their mission to preach the One true God!

10) Further, it was these same Jews (not the Pharisees) that were sent out into the world to preach Jesus. It was God who literally remove the blindness from Paul. So, they (Jews) woulI don't feel d in fact, succeed in their God given mission but ONLY after and as a result of the cross.

11) The Gentiles can not replace or change the Jews as “His chosen people,” because they were the receivers of Word and the Testimony of Jesus from them. The Gentiles had a choice, as today, to accept or reject Jesus.

I hope this is a better read for you… and perhaps you might be willing to comment on this by referring to each numbered point so we can focus on one at a time?

Thanks
I don't feel like going over every point. In my view the Jews already fulfilled their mission to bring the gospel to the Gentiles and they dont have any future mission to fulfill.

Scripture is clear. God's people are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26-29) which includes all Jew and Gentile believers together as one. That's His focus. We are the ones with the mission to reach the lost with the gospel. That includes Jewish believers. That is God's plan for them and He has no other plan for them except to be part of the church's mission.
 
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CTK

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I don't feel like going over every point. In my view the Jews already fulfilled their mission to bring the gospel to the Gentiles and they dont have any future mission to fulfill.

Scripture is clear. God's people are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26-29) which includes all Jew and Gentile believers together as one. That's His focus. We are the ones with the mission to reach the lost with the gospel. That includes Jewish believers. That is God's plan for them and He has no other plan for them except to be part of the church's mission.
Thanks. I understand your view.
 

Timtofly

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To read the verse as though it says once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in then the blindness to Israel shall be lifted, is reading our doctrine into the passage. Paul tells only that blindness in part had come to Israel. Why is the blindness only in part? Because there has always been a saved remnant from Israel that were never in blindness.

The question that challenged me is how can all Israel that shall be saved be speaking of ethnic Jews since their fullness comes from Gentiles being grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with them? Why do we assume Paul saying the blindness in part will then be lifted? That's not what he says. He says only that Israel is in partial blindness. It is Paul's desire for his kinsmen and us to understand "this mystery" that has been made known since the advent of Christ. The mystery is that Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith together is how "all Israel" shall be saved. Salvation through Christ is not only to Jews, but Gentiles too, and when the last Gentile is saved, the seventh trumpet will sound the 'mystery' of God finished, and that time should be no longer.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the last Gentile to be saved together with Jews of faith, the Kingdom of God will be complete as the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of the earth and whosoever believes the Gospel has everlasting life through Him. Then all "Israel of God" shall be saved. Not an ethnic people only, but all people of faith as one body in Christ. There will not be more time given this earth whereby man must be saved. The end of time has come and the only time remaining will not be for being saved but will be for Satan's "little season."

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Your doctrine leaves the timing up to lost Gentiles. You are literally saying when that last Gentile finally decides to repent, and receive the gift of Salvation, the 7th Trumpet will sound, because that last Gentile is the blindness removed.


That was not Paul's point at all.


Only God can remove the blindness, because He placed that blindness on Israel, and that blindness started when the 10 northern tribes were scattered across the earth. Blindness in part was not just being blinded to the Gospel, but to all of God's plan, which included being cut off from the Olive Tree as given in the analogy.

The blindness was in part, because even those scattered across the earth could come to God in repentance, even before the Messiah arrived. The "completed church" (that last Gentile, according to you) is not the end of time. The end of time is the 70 weeks as the mystery given in the prophets. The Gospel was not the mystery. The mystery was given to the people of Israel, so the mystery would be that God extended His elect outside of Israel, to include all of Adam's offspring.

That is the point of natural branches and wild branches. Israel considered themselves as only the elect. The mystery was that all of Adam's offspring was included in the elect, not just Israel. We can see this sentiment in these verses:

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

This was a real event, but Jesus was not being rude because He was God. He was demonstrating how they misunderstood the mystery. Even the Gentiles understood how they were viewed by Israel.

In the anology of the OP, Paul was not saying Israel became wild branches, nor that the wild branches became natural branches, yet the doctrine of many want to blur those lines, because Paul also taught that in Christ there was no difference.

So the anology still went along with the mystery as there was a distinction between the natural branches and the wild branches. That mystery was deliberately placed on Israel, by God, at some point prior to even the Babylonian captivity, that Daniel experienced, and applied only to Israel, not necessarily to Gentiles.

Paul even said the Gospel made them (Israel) enemies of the church. But according to election way before even Abraham, no nations were enemies towards each other. That God called Israel out of the world and made them distinct natural branches should not have been a mystery, but a blessing for all who submitted to the Law including Gentile converts. It became a mystery to Israel when God placed them into the partial blindness. That would mean it would be hard for Israel to accept the Gospel, like it was hard for a Gentile to convert to the Law of Moses. Not impossible, and not that Gentiles could make Israel feel insignificant, like being a Gentile under the law made them inferior to Israel.

If there is no distinction, why would you even make a point "that the last Gentile...". That seems hypocritical. What if the last person saved is a descendant of Jacob? This has nothing to do with God waiting for the last person to make up their mind.


There will be many who could have, but did not, remember the 5 wise and 5 foolish. You make it sound like God was waiting for that last 5th wise person to have oil. Why? Jesus will come ready or not, then the partial blindness will be removed, and then many of Israel will be made righteous after the church has gone. But those will be the firstfruits of an earthly kingdom, not part of the church, as that opportunity was taken away at the Second Coming, ready or not.

Yes, the fulness of the Gentiles will be brought in. That is based on God's timing, not a single holdout Gentile, marking the end of being prepared.
 

Timtofly

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Do you think this is an instance where a person doesn’t have free will?

In other words, let’s say an unsaved person who vehemently rejects Jesus is one of the 12 tribe members but it is unknown to them. That would mean, regardless of them using their free will to reject Jesus, they would become saved.

Does Israel have free will once the blindness in part is lifted?
Once redeemed, does one have a choice to reject? Do you think those in heaven have free will, up to the point that they cannot just leave heaven, or do anything to incur God's wrath?

I don't think the 144k have free will to choose, nor reject being sealed. I don't think the sheep, wheat, goats or tares have free will to choose their eternal destination. Once removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and literally forced to be eternally righteous, what does free will have to do with being disobedient, unless God says you do this, and you will die?

Who took away Adam's free will to disobey God, and forced him to be disobedient?